2021 sees India drop from ‘Free’ to ‘Partly Free’ in freedom index

[someone]

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by someone

[coffee_rules]

Kya poppatwali ghatiya  bhasha bolta hain SunnyJi, His Hindi is atrocious. It is mumbaiyya, goregaon ki gali nukkad mein aise hi bolte hain.  . Greatly disappointed. His English is very good..

[coffee_rules]

5 hours ago, Mariyam said:

What opposition?

I said opposing viewpoints. Can be within the party too. 

This isn't a political problem only. Don't get why you are quick to jump on to the BJP 2014 vs before comparison here.  That distinction is only in your mind. As if overnight India has turned magically liberal/progressive/tolerant. It hasn't. These things take time.

 

The Op was about India being partly free now in recent times, as if we didn't have any such excessive force was never used in other governments. Look at SM, every liberal is celebrating this certificate by some falaana organization as an indication of present day establishment. And when you say you have concerns the way India is heading, I read it in the context of the OP.

 

Party functioning has never been democratic any time in India. There were always groups that dominated, people whol held on to power structures and negotiated on how many MLAs/MPs they hold in their camp. This is true for BJP too.  I never claimed India or BJP has turned liberal/progressive/tolerant. India was always conservative in fiscal and social policies and continues to be so even now.  Not much has changed except that politics is not bi-polar with communal and non-communal. BJP is not untouchable anymore for all intellectuals. People in power in all sectors are not being uncomfortable showing their dharmic roots and are prouder about India than ever before.

It was never perfect and is not now, but the direction is right for many majority of the people,  and they get ridiculed as majoritarian, godi media etc.

 

 

5 hours ago, Mariyam said:

As a small example, recently a 'comedian' was jailed for over a month for jokes he didn't crack. In fact arrested before his show began. Some of his colleagues/show organisers were held for even longer. He had to be released only after the SC stepped in and have him released.

Yeah, as if joking about Godhra kaand will not hurt sentiments and comparing the Godhra train burning of 59 bodies  to a movie - Burning train. A similar joke that Kaslesh Tiwari did, was jailed too. Abhvvyakti azaadi doesn't cut one way. It has to be uniform or none. Listen to this shayars late Rahat Indori and Munawar Rana openly spoke about social ills and religion (Hinduism) freely.  Take that for FoE :

 

 

5 hours ago, Mariyam said:

We've had land records disappear and later falsified in the DLF land grab case! Lower courts using these obviously falsified documents to rule in favour of DLF and putting gag orders on the original land holders. 

 

Victims of the Bhopal gas tragedy have been systematically silenced since the mid 80s. 

 

One could go on.

 

There is a long way to go to eradicate corruption in our systems. What is sad is that level of corruption at bureaucracy, L&O, Medical field is fgetting worse. Not so much at the higher levels.  

[Yoda-esque]

Kya poppatwali ghatiya  bhasha bolta hain SunnyJi, His Hindi is atrocious. It is mumbaiyya, goregaon ki gali nukkad mein aise hi bolte hain.  . Greatly disappointed. His English is very good..

Sahi bola sunny bhidu..aesaayich bolne ka..

[coffee_rules]

1 minute ago, Yoda-esque said:

26 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Kya poppatwali ghatiya  bhasha bolta hain SunnyJi, His Hindi is atrocious. It is mumbaiyya, goregaon ki gali nukkad mein aise hi bolte hain.  . Greatly disappointed. His English is very good..

Sahi bola sunny bhidu..aesaayich bolne ka..

 

Unki diction ke baare mein kaha. Sahi bilkul sahi bola. He always took on Aussie and English hypocrisy even during commentary, at times it was cringe-worthy. But he didn't mince words.

[Alam_dar]

14 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Lame Rod at it again. BJP is coming up with a narrative of development and growth to pull people out of poverty. It has shown a good track record in last 6 years, look at dev indices of GDP, infrastructure, housing and toilets, PDS , direct deposit of subsidies into Jan dhan accounts. Others are afraid that they will lose another five years and are using their ecosystem of the west liberals and Islamists to raise HR issues. This will be detrimental as Modi will be back if they keep playing this show on the road.

 

Development is good and welcomed, but unfortunately it is not enough and it is not going to solve other social social problems of deep divide and polarization and hatred and fears in the society.

 

It means that you are unnecessarily yourself growing an opponent within your own country, which could be more fatal to you than your western enemy land. 

 

There were indeed problems with Indian Muslims, but at least what I felt is this that Indian Muslims were still loyal to Indian State and took proud in being an India. They were proud of Indian Constitution and Democracy and these things were enough for them to stick with India. Nevertheless, once they loose all their hopes in constitution and democracy too, then you could not keep them loyal to Indian State. 

 

Unifying a society in name of development and progress is a wiser approach. 

 

 

[Yoda-esque]

 
Development is good and welcomed, but unfortunately it is not enough and it is not going to solve other social social problems of deep divide and polarization and hatred and fears in the society.
 
It means that you are unnecessarily yourself growing an opponent within your own country, which could be more fatal to you than your western enemy land. 
 
There were indeed problems with Indian Muslims, but at least what I felt is this that Indian Muslims were still loyal to Indian State and took proud in being an India. They were proud of Indian Constitution and Democracy and these things were enough for them to stick with India. Nevertheless, once they loose all their hopes in constitution and democracy too, then you could not keep them loyal to Indian State. 
 
Unifying a society in name of development and progress is a wiser approach. 
 
 

We are talking about progress,you are talking about hindu muslim..

Because..because..that's all you guys can see.

[Alam_dar]

PS:

 

It is not like Imperial West is against India, as the right wing of India is claiming. 

 

West is itself divided into right wing and the left wing, and this divide has become intensively deep in US today. 

 

Thing is this that it is the Universal LEFT, which criticises the breaches of human rights in every country.

 

I just hope one day this movement becomes strong enough to save the innocent people everywhere in the world, including Hindus, Ahmadis and Atheists/Ex-Muslims in Pakistan. 

[Mariyam]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Yeah, as if joking about Godhra kaand will not hurt sentiments and comparing the Godhra train burning of 59 bodies  to a movie - Burning train. A similar joke that Kaslesh Tiwari did, was jailed too. Abhvvyakti azaadi doesn't cut one way. It has to be uniform or none. Listen to this shayars late Rahat Indori and Munawar Rana openly spoke about social ills and religion (Hinduism) freely.  Take that for FoE :

 

First of all, those jokes on the Godhra train burning are very insensitive. And offensive. Hence I used 'comedian' with the quotation marks.

But his arrest had nothing to do with that. He was arrested in Indore *before* his show began! The police were vague in the FIR. He was incarcerated for more than a month. The SC set him off dismissing the case against him as frivolous. 

 

As much as we find him offensive/irritable or outright bigoted, you do agree that arresting him on what are essentially trumped up half charges and jailing him for a month extending trial dates is not exactly definition of freedom? 

 

Re: the corruption part. Its not just corruption which is the issue, but corruption to even provide the victims of an industrial accident any outlet to express themselves. In Bhopal, most of the victims were paid the grand total of 250$ over the course of the last 3 decades. The doctors who were asked to review their cases were bribed/coerced by successive governments to downplay the impact of the noxious gas. Their health  issues, and those of their children were passed off as regular ailments. There by reducing the financial responsibility of the government(s). That is what I meant by silencing the victims. These things came to the fore only after the doctors left/migrated from the country and decided to open up. 

 

We have our share of skeletons in the closet. 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Mariyam

[Mariyam]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Kya poppatwali ghatiya  bhasha bolta hain SunnyJi, His Hindi is atrocious. It is mumbaiyya, goregaon ki gali nukkad mein aise hi bolte hain.  . Greatly disappointed. His English is very good..

That is still sophisticated Mumbaiyya Hindi. Shivaji park version perhaps.

 

You have to include an 'apun' or a "woich' or a to go full tapori.

[coffee_rules]

9 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

First of all, those jokes on the Godhra train burning are very insensitive. And offensive. Hence I used 'comedian' with the quotation marks.

But his arrest had nothing to do with that. He was arrested in Indore *before* his show began! The police were vague in the FIR. He was incarcerated for more than a month. The SC set him off dismissing the case against him as frivolous. 

 

As much as we find him offensive/irritable or outright bigoted, you do agree that arresting him on what are essentially trumped up half charges and jailing him for a month extending trial dates is not exactly definition of freedom? 

 

Re: the corruption part. Its not just corruption which is the issue, but corruption to even provide the victims of an industrial accident any outlet to express themselves. In Bhopal, most of the victims were paid the grand total of 250$ over the course of the last 3 decades. The doctors who were asked to review their cases were bribed/coerced by successive governments to downplay the impact of the noxious gas. Their health  issues, and those of their children were passed off as regular ailments. There by reducing the financial responsibility of the government(s). That is what I meant by silencing the victims. These things came to the fore only after the doctors left/migrated from the country and decided to open up. 

 

We have our share of skeletons in the closet. 

 

On the comedian’ , I have no sympathies. You reap what you sow, if he has made a joke like that, he deserves what he got. I gave you an example of Kamlesh Tiwari, who was arrested for six months and also a teenager in Malda who wrote some inane stuff in FB. 
 

In India, if the state decides to jail you, nobody can stop. Take the case of Abhijit Iyer Mitra, who joked about Konark temple on premises. He was jailed for over a month in Odisha. No liberal intellectual came to his rescue like they are doing now for a comedian with a certain name of interest. This issue is specific to our archaic colonial era laws and their modern one-sided interpretation by the judiciary 

 

On corruption, the Bhopal tragedy victims’ case is really sad. Would be interested to know if a US based NGO is working for their relief. The regular ones only worry about green and human rights of “green” and “blue”

[Mariyam]

@coffee_rules

The examples that you cite; from Malda and Orissa are examples of an extremely harsh punishment meted out by the state for what are (relatively) minor infractions. The State is indirectly coercing the people you mentioned into being silent. How exactly is your assertion then any different from the people who made the index? 

 

The only difference in the cases you mentioned and the case of the 'comedian' is that he didn't crack any jokes at the venue when he was arrested. And the FIR didn't state his past transgressions either. It cited section 295A (deliberately hurting religious feelings) and 144 (curfew; breaching of covid protocols) . Basically its the latter that the cops held onto in the court.

 

 

 

[Mariyam]

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

PS:

 

It is not like Imperial West is against India, as the right wing of India is claiming. 

 

West is itself divided into right wing and the left wing, and this divide has become intensively deep in US today. 

 

Thing is this that it is the Universal LEFT, which criticises the breaches of human rights in every country.

 

I just hope one day this movement becomes strong enough to save the innocent people everywhere in the world, including Hindus, Ahmadis and Atheists/Ex-Muslims in Pakistan. 

All is lost if you are looking for the Universal Left (whatever that is) to save the remaining minorities in Pakistan. It is the duty of the Pakistani state to provide them safety and in the case of Pakistan the onus of responsibility lies on the majority community of Pakistan to provide for an atmosphere where they can live with dignity.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Mariyam

[coffee_rules]

52 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@coffee_rules

The examples that you cite; from Malda and Orissa are examples of an extremely harsh punishment meted out by the state for what are (relatively) minor infractions. The State is indirectly coercing the people you mentioned into being silent. How exactly is your assertion then any different from the people who made the index? 

These are a few individual cases that we can cite in India. I can bring about such 100 cases in US, where minorities are locked up with out any representation or due process. But US is supposed to be completely free and India is partially free. Hence, my assertion that this index and the organization is fraud and bogus. Liberals and here in ICF, showing this index as an indication of BJP government state of governing, is not worth discussing.

 

Quote

 

The only difference in the cases you mentioned and the case of the 'comedian' is that he didn't crack any jokes at the venue when he was arrested. And the FIR didn't state his past transgressions either. It cited section 295A (deliberately hurting religious feelings) and 144 (curfew; breaching of covid protocols) . Basically its the latter that the cops held onto in the court.

 

 

 

 

As I said, the rationale to lock him will find support from the judiciary as they can see how this fellow would have joked. There are covid norms to follow for a city to ensure safety and the event officials might not have followed. I stated in earlier cases, the state needs a flimsy reason to lock people up as stated in my examples, this is one such case and not a BJP govt infringing FoE of minorities as the index or you are indicating,

Edited March 5, 2021 by coffee_rules

[Alam_dar]

58 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

All is lost if you are looking for the Universal Left (whatever that is) to save the remaining minorities in Pakistan. It is the duty of the Pakistani state to provide them safety and in the case of Pakistan the onus of responsibility lies on the majority community of Pakistan to provide for an atmosphere where they can live with dignity.

 

I am afraid that it is a that wish which could practically never become true. 

 

I am afraid that reformation from within the Pakistani society is practically impossible. The hatred against Ahmadis and other minorities is too high.  And what frightens me more is this that things are not moving towards positive, but situation is  becoming from bad to worse. 

 

I am personally of this opinion that outside pressure could indeed bring positive results. 

 

For example, slavery existed throughout our history and no reformation came to end it. At last, it was the pressure of the Western countries, which compelled Islamic countries to abolish the slavery. Muslim countries actually resisted a lot.  Slavery abolished in 1962 in Saudi Arabia and Yemen, Oman in 1970, Mauritania in 1981. All this happened due to extreme pressure from the outside world. 

 

Even today, western countries make a lot of noise if Pakistan hangs anyone due to blasphemy. They followed the case of Asia Masih, and due to that she was at last released and was able to leave Pakistan. Indeed Pakistani government and Mullahs have some fear of the West, otherwise they will start behaving like ISIS and Taliban. I am really thankful to the western world for this help. It is not enough though, but still something is better than nothing. 

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Thing is this that it is the Universal LEFT, which criticises the breaches of human rights in every country.

no not in every country, it exists only in non Muslim countries and countries not named as Russia/China.

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Development is good and welcomed, but unfortunately it is not enough and it is not going to solve other social social problems of deep divide and polarization and hatred and fears in the society.

 

It means that you are unnecessarily yourself growing an opponent within your own country, which could be more fatal to you than your western enemy land. 

 

There were indeed problems with Indian Muslims, but at least what I felt is this that Indian Muslims were still loyal to Indian State and took proud in being an India. They were proud of Indian Constitution and Democracy and these things were enough for them to stick with India. Nevertheless, once they loose all their hopes in constitution and democracy too, then you could not keep them loyal to Indian State. 

 

Unifying a society in name of development and progress is a wiser approach. 

 

 

 

 

translation : let Muslims be favoured group with their personal law, with no refugee status offered to non muslims from muslim lands due to religious persecution else we will rise up and make ur life hell.

 

Ok, pakistani, we know your game. We are not going to pander to the muslims anymore under threats of unrest. THey can either grow up and accept UCC or be a trouble and we will deal with their trouble. Its just that simple.

 

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

PS:

 

It is not like Imperial West is against India, as the right wing of India is claiming. 

Yes it is. We dont need the gungadeens and jaichands to tell us otherwise, western imperliastic bootlicker.

 

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

West is itself divided into right wing and the left wing, and this divide has become intensively deep in US today. 

 

Thing is this that it is the Universal LEFT, which criticises the breaches of human rights in every country.

 

I just hope one day this movement becomes strong enough to save the innocent people everywhere in the world, including Hindus, Ahmadis and Atheists/Ex-Muslims in Pakistan. 

The left has killed more people than the right in the 120 years of its existence as a political force. its the left that started burning buildings and starting riots under the name of BLM and Antifa and trashing America. Its the left that needs to be cleansed and stamped out. 

[Mariyam]

15 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

As I said, the rationale to lock him will find support from the judiciary as they can see how this fellow would have joked. There are covid norms to follow for a city to ensure safety and the event officials might not have followed. I stated in earlier cases, the state needs a flimsy reason to lock people up as stated in my examples, this is one such case and not a BJP govt infringing FoE of minorities as the index or you are indicating,

For some strange reason, you are still stuck on BJP government, liberal vs others, rights of minorities, pre 2014 vs post 2014 etc. That is doing disservice to real issue here, which is the state curtailing liberties.

You wanted some examples and I cited them. Just by the way, flouting covid rules is an offense by the organisers and not necessarily the artist. They were arrested much later.

Also this specific case is an example of the state using its power to silence an unfunny comic. Its just that you seem okay with it and normalize that by citing counter examples from other parts of India  because *you* don't like what the comic has to say. 

 

That is a double standard.

 

Reminds me of that AB dialogue from Deewar: "pehle ja us admi ka sign lekar aao, jisne mere haath pe ye likha. hain! Uske baad mere bhai, tum jahan kahoge main wahan sign karunga"

And like Shashi Kapoor rightly retorted " dusron ke jurm ginane se tumhare apne jurm kam nahi hote"

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Mariyam

[Mariyam]

12 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

 

translation : let Muslims be favoured group with their personal law, with no refugee status offered to non muslims from muslim lands due to religious persecution else we will rise up and make ur life hell.

 

Ok, pakistani, we know your game. We are not going to pander to the muslims anymore under threats of unrest. THey can either grow up and accept UCC or be a trouble and we will deal with their trouble. Its just that simple.

 

Wait what?

 

Why is having your own personal law code drafted by a parochial AIMPLB a 'favour'? If anything I could argue that its a huge disservice and has kept the community at loggerheads from real development.

How exactly have Muslims in India benefitted from this? Sachar report says that Muslims are the backward most community on all social parameters/ human development indices in India. Except male to female ratio in 0-6 years age group.

 

How exactly are Muslims being pandered to?