Success and achievements of demonetisation

[bharathh]

4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Since when did success/failure of anything were relevant for doing anything for the govt?

 

Who all refunded the money India lost due to demonetization? Mr PM.

 

Govt should ask Modi to compensate for that as per your logic?

 

 

What money did Modi lose due to demonetisation? Can we create a separate topic for this btw.. It could derail the existing discussion on the useless Pegasus

 

Demonetisation has reduced the shadow economy of India from rivalling that of our actual economy to one where a lot money transactions now are forced to be in the white. I know this will be an unpopular opinion - but I feel the value of demonetisation will bear fruit over the long term. For one: 

 

1. The banks were in terrible shape at the time. Demonetisation caused a huge shot in the arm for banks to get money deposited in accounts. Money that would otherwise have never made it back into the system. By forcing people to deposit their old notes - money was infused back into banks. The banks were consistently looted like personal piggy banks by the politicians, bureaucrats and anyone else who had connections. Our banking system is still tottering on the brink of collapse - which is why the MMS govt had to keep  borrowing money to keep things going. This borrowing of money to keep our banks going came to an abrupt stop. You keep saying we lost money due to demon - what money did we lose? Nobody prevented Indians from depositing money into their accounts. You were able to deposit 2 lakhs freely into your account no questions asked. More than that you had to show your ID and questions could be asked later. People were so happy cheating on their incomes and using cash that they were loath to deposit more in case they were pulled up on how much cash they were depositing back into the system. Even then people used their non-working relative's accounts to keep depositing 2 L. 

 

2. Demon allowed for tracking of money that had been out of the system. It caused folks who were running a parallel economy using cash to either lose/deposit that money back. Ppl's income vs expenditure could be tracked better now. There is talk about how ppl were inconvenienced for standing in lines. Yes it was inconvenient. However, there were many who were happy to do so as they understood how it helped. In fact if you waited towards Nov - it was pretty easy to walk in and deposit your money into an account. But there was panic caused by the opposition. Put your money in now - or lose it... That caused ppl to make a run for the banks causing all the commotion. Even then as I mentioned above there were many who were just fine waiting in lines. 

 

More ppl were moved into creating and using bank accounts than at any other time in Indian history. This again is a huge deal. Compared to pre-demon ppl have taken to digital banking in a huge way. This is so convenient for everyone. It is a lot more difficult to harass and take hafta from shopkeepers and other small business owners by cops and others as - at least in cities ppl use wallets and BHIM to pay for goods and services. This has been one of the biggest transformations in the way that we transact using money now. Digital payments is one of the biggest boons for small businesses who now don't need to worry about holding on to the money that they make. If they hadn't been forced to move out of cash transactions by demon - ppl would still keep 

 

3. The shadow economy was reduced big time. This economy was causing a big problem for India. Money was money into a system without any accountability. This money was used for hawala transactions and other illegal means. Terrorism was financed big time due to this. There is enough data on this. This economy has been hamstrung since demon. This in itself IMHO is one of the biggest plusses of demon. Will it be back sometime - sure - but ppl will be more wary of hoarding knowing that something like this could happen again.

 

On the down side this also had the ripple effects of causing unemployment as cash was no longer available for paying people outside the system. This also caused ppl from spending money as they were afraid of getting caught for spending money that they should not have. So the real estate market and other cash friendly industries were affected. This was however, a necessary step to clear out the shadow economy to a large extent. Things will eventually settle down. If you mean that this is the money that was lost - the onus is on the folks who were running the shadow economy illegally - not on the govt.

 

4. Although this move def did not erase black money - it did reduce it to a huge extent. People who may have 100s of crores could salvage some of it - but lost most of it as they couldn't exchange the old notes either through the hawala or legally in banks. They couldn't move it abroad either as it didn't have any value outside India now. I personally rejoiced at the anguish of many folks who lost many crores because they couldn't exchange their ill gotten gains. This lost Modi a lot of his supporters in the small and medium business owners who showed tiny revenues on paper - but raked in money through cash. This was telling on them. The very fact that he would be prepared to lose his biggest supporters shows that he puts the country first over his politics. That is something that people never understand. I actually was pretty anti-Modi in 2014. However, almost all his moves go against the grain of a normal politician. In fact, demon probably hurt the political and business class the hardest of all. Yet, he was prepared to do it. 

 

5. As far as NRIs were concerned - I am not sure why you would need >30k outside of India. Unless you are in Nepal/Bhutan you can't really spend that money anyways. You are only allowed to take out 25k Rs worth of money at any time anyways. So for ppl stating that they had money that went to waste outside of India - did you declare all that money when you left India? If not, then it's technically black money. 

 

Demonetisation was never meant to be a quick fix. It did cause our economy to slow down big time as capital freely available as black money was sucked out of the market. Ppl didn't want to bring attention to themselves by spending money they shouldn't have or paint a target on themselves. Cash transactions were reduced causing unemployment of folks who were never part of the labour market. But I feel the long term benefits are worth it. The economy will recover stronger under a cleaner more transparent system. Do we have the patience for this to bear fruit? Probably not. 

[Trichromatic]

Moved to new topic, as it can itself be a separate discussion topic.

[Trichromatic]

Quote

4. Although this move def did not erase black money - it did reduce it to a huge extent. People who may have 100s of crores could salvage some of it - but lost most of it as they couldn't exchange the old notes either through the hawala or legally in banks. They couldn't move it abroad either as it didn't have any value outside India now.

 

 

Not sure in which country did people lose most of their black money.

 

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/after-almost-two-years-of-counting-rbi-says-99-3-of-demonetised-notes-returned/articleshow/65589904.cms

 

Quote

Of the Rs 15.41 lakh crore worth Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 notes in circulation on November 8, 2016, when the note ban was announced, notes worth Rs 15.31 lakh crore have been returned.
 

 

[bharathh]

So the money that was created got accounted for. Now the govt can cross reference IT returns vs what money is in the bank account to look for discrepancies that was not possible before. So Modi didn't lose any money like you said earlier. OTOH the banks became flush with money that could help them make interest payments and overcome bad loans.

 

There was plenty of money that could not get added to accounts though. There were enough reports of ppl burning money or destroying stored money so they wouldn't get caught with it. Who knows how much black money got destroyed! 

 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/varanasi/demonetisation-burnt-half-burnt-banned-notes-found-in-mirzapur/articleshow/55685707.cms

 

 

[urbestfriend]

Demo was a promising move despite the hardship faced by the common people. Most of the hardship was faced by those who was holding lot of cash and they had to resort to exchange for 10-20% cut so this money flew hands..

 

But the worst was not the demo itself but what happened later... It was golden chance to go after the corrupt and illegal businesses...It was golden chance to go after the politicians and bureaucrats   who was holding lot of black money. In India parallel economy of shady businesses, tax evasion, and illegality happens due ot political patronage...Most politicians and their supporters, and the bureaucracy who take their cuts  are no 1 sources of black money, but it is still continuing unbated. This was the biggest failure of demo. 

 

On one hand, Central government wants general public to be clean , but they wont go after illegalities unless there is a political reason to do so.. Corruption did not reduce a bit...So demo was a waste move which caused hardship to common people, had a bad effect on economy and only helped BJP to win the election, nothing else.

Edited July 20, 2021 by urbestfriend

[beetle]

Op...call it demo....instead of demon . Demon is not helping the argument.

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

 

Not sure in which country did people lose most of their black money.

 

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/after-almost-two-years-of-counting-rbi-says-99-3-of-demonetised-notes-returned/articleshow/65589904.cms

 

 

So 0.10 lakh crore notes didn't return. That's a huge sum too. Now multiply this number by 500 or 1000.

Edited July 20, 2021 by rkt.india

[Trichromatic]

52 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

So 0.10 lakh crore notes didn't return. That's a huge sum too. Now multiply this number by 500 or 1000.

 

10,000 crores INR, not notes.

 

Cost of printing new notes - 8000 crores.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/banknotes-printing-cost-rose-to-nearly-rs-8000-crore-in-demonetisation-year-govt/articleshow/67148332.cms

 

 

Reminds me of friend who drove for 80 km back to get his 100 rupees slippers from road. At least he had fun driving

 

 

Not even considering loss in GDP here.

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, urbestfriend said:

Demo was a promising move despite the hardship faced by the common people. Most of the hardship was faced by those who was holding lot of cash and they had to resort to exchange for 10-20% cut so this money flew hands..

 

But the worst was not the demo itself but what happened later... It was golden chance to go after the corrupt and illegal businesses...It was golden chance to go after the politicians and bureaucrats   who was holding lot of black money. In India parallel economy of shady businesses, tax evasion, and illegality happens due ot political patronage...Most politicians and their supporters, and the bureaucracy who take their cuts  are no 1 sources of black money, but it is still continuing unbated. This was the biggest failure of demo. 

 

On one hand, Central government wants general public to be clean , but they wont go after illegalities unless there is a political reason to do so.. Corruption did not reduce a bit...So demo was a waste move which caused hardship to common people, had a bad effect on economy and only helped BJP to win the election, nothing else.

 

10-20% cut - please share source of this information.

 

Most of the hardship was faced by common public, not by people who held lot of cash.

[Trichromatic]

2 hours ago, bharathh said:

So the money that was created got accounted for. Now the govt can cross reference IT returns vs what money is in the bank account to look for discrepancies that was not possible before. So Modi didn't lose any money like you said earlier. OTOH the banks became flush with money that could help them make interest payments and overcome bad loans.

 

There was plenty of money that could not get added to accounts though. There were enough reports of ppl burning money or destroying stored money so they wouldn't get caught with it. Who knows how much black money got destroyed! 

 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/varanasi/demonetisation-burnt-half-burnt-banned-notes-found-in-mirzapur/articleshow/55685707.cms

 

 

 

Please don't pretend that information isn't available by saying who knows how much black money got destroyed.

 

10k crores black money got lost.

 

Modi spent 8k crores in priniting new notes,

 

[Real McCoy]

OP sounds like a govt paid shill with this post. nothing more nothing less. OP lets a freudian slip by referring to demonetization as "demon". Its a demon alright. A demon propped up by big businesses to kill the smaller ones. if corruption was the main problem, mudji should have gone after those with crores of black money immediately after demo. Also there are still a lot of black money operators with the new notes. Big fail. There are lots of small business owners who lost a lot of money and probably had to close their shops because of this. For those who consider small business owners operating by cash as a bad thing, how are you going to pay store workers from outside states who didn't have bank accounts and maids who sweep the floors. I bet the OP pays his maid with cash. So is he indulging in black money by indulging in cash transactions.

demo is more of a step towards digital banking as paytm, phonepe and other stuff became more popular after demo. Its a step towards destroying road side fruit shops and giving it to big business like reliance supermarkets. These low scale guys are what keeping India as India. We cannot be like US or UK neither should we aim to. If there are no food sold in supermarkets in US, the people are fvcked because they don't have a choice to go for smaller stores. When all the super markets were shutdown for the first wave of corona, it was the small business owners who stepped up. I also recall during the chennai floods, small vegetable owners in their carts used to come and sell. All reliance and other supermarkets were closed.

Everyone having a bank account is not a great thing. If you want usury to remain flourishing, all you need to do is open a bank account. Banking, interest, inflation is nothing but usury and a form of legal cheating. mudiji whole campaign was about ending corruption. 7 years later, there is no end to this jihad on corruption while the big guys are already safe

And this guy is talking about nris having 30k with them. 30k is nothing in the national scale when it comes to ending corruption. This guy goes after regular folks and defends the govt. maybe mudiji should give him a bharat ratna. the usual nri is a family of 4. so what happens if one of them falls sick upon arrival and has to go to the hospital. The nri's debit card/credit card may have been blocked because of non-usage or missing the yearly kyc BS. Do you think hospitals in India will welcome any patient that doesn't have anything on them. Just pure BS from the OP. Lots of old people living alone who have their children in US have cash for emergency purposes. mudiji will go after these evil old people telling them they have black money. The OP is an individual who has no empathy.

[Real McCoy]

The demo was started to get rid of corruption to bring back the value to the rupee. Rupee went from 60+ to 75 under mudiji. He did the same damage to the rupee in 7 years that khangress did in 10 years. So basically they both are sh1t. atleast we know congress is corrupt but bajpa was doing war on corruption, no? If an actual demo was conducted, we will be having a cup of tea for 2 rs or lesser like we did in the late 90s

[bharathh]

3 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Please don't pretend that information isn't available by saying who knows how much black money got destroyed.

 

10k crores black money got lost.

 

Modi spent 8k crores in priniting new notes,

 

That is the official amount. I don't think there is any estimate on how much money got destroyed that was outside of the system. The burned/destroyed cash. If you have a source that estimates it would be happy to read.

[bharathh]

35 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

OP sounds like a govt paid shill with this post. nothing more nothing less. OP lets a freudian slip by referring to demonetization as "demon". Its a demon alright. A demon propped up by big businesses to kill the smaller ones. if corruption was the main problem, mudji should have gone after those with crores of black money immediately after demo. Also there are still a lot of black money operators with the new notes. Big fail. There are lots of small business owners who lost a lot of money and probably had to close their shops because of this. For those who consider small business owners operating by cash as a bad thing, how are you going to pay store workers from outside states who didn't have bank accounts and maids who sweep the floors. I bet the OP pays his maid with cash. So is he indulging in black money by indulging in cash transactions.

demo is more of a step towards digital banking as paytm, phonepe and other stuff became more popular after demo. Its a step towards destroying road side fruit shops and giving it to big business like reliance supermarkets. These low scale guys are what keeping India as India. We cannot be like US or UK neither should we aim to. If there are no food sold in supermarkets in US, the people are fvcked because they don't have a choice to go for smaller stores. When all the super markets were shutdown for the first wave of corona, it was the small business owners who stepped up. I also recall during the chennai floods, small vegetable owners in their carts used to come and sell. All reliance and other supermarkets were closed.

Everyone having a bank account is not a great thing. If you want usury to remain flourishing, all you need to do is open a bank account. Banking, interest, inflation is nothing but usury and a form of legal cheating. mudiji whole campaign was about ending corruption. 7 years later, there is no end to this jihad on corruption while the big guys are already safe

And this guy is talking about nris having 30k with them. 30k is nothing in the national scale when it comes to ending corruption. This guy goes after regular folks and defends the govt. maybe mudiji should give him a bharat ratna. the usual nri is a family of 4. so what happens if one of them falls sick upon arrival and has to go to the hospital. The nri's debit card/credit card may have been blocked because of non-usage or missing the yearly kyc BS. Do you think hospitals in India will welcome any patient that doesn't have anything on them. Just pure BS from the OP. Lots of old people living alone who have their children in US have cash for emergency purposes. mudiji will go after these evil old people telling them they have black money. The OP is an individual who has no empathy.

You are welcome to think as you wish. Please dispute anything I have written with any facts of your own. 

[Singh bling]

At an Estimated Rs 60,000 Crore, Lok Sabha Elections Costliest Ever; BJP Spent 45% of it, Shows Study

https://www.news18.com/news/politics/with-about-rs-100-cr-spent-in-each-ls-constituency-we-just-witnessed-the-most-expensive-election-ever-2171789.html

 

In 2014 30,000 crores were spent in elections in 2019 60000 crores was spent  but according to bhakts black money was widespread in 2014 but very much in control in 2019

Edited July 20, 2021 by Singh bling

[bharathh]

11 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

At an Estimated Rs 60,000 Crore, Lok Sabha Elections Costliest Ever; BJP Spent 45% of it, Shows Study

https://www.news18.com/news/politics/with-about-rs-100-cr-spent-in-each-ls-constituency-we-just-witnessed-the-most-expensive-election-ever-2171789.html

 

In 2014 30,000 crores were spent in elections in 2019 60000 crores was spent  but according to bhakts black money was widespread in 2014 but very much in control in 2019

 

And this is obviously black money because? 

[Yoda-esque]

System needed a shake up.

[Singh bling]

19 minutes ago, bharathh said:

 

And this is obviously black money because? 

I guess you very well know that there is ceiling of 70 lakhs per candidate while BJP spent 27 thousand crore , that makes over 60 crore per candidate. If all this was white money then EC should take action against BJP for spending  such huge amount

Edited July 20, 2021 by Singh bling

[Real McCoy]

40 minutes ago, bharathh said:

You are welcome to think as you wish. Please dispute anything I have written with any facts of your own. 

I just did. you can look away as you wish

[bharathh]

1 minute ago, Singh bling said:

I guess you very well know that there is ceiling of 70 lakhs per candidate while BJP spent 27 thousand crore , that makes over 60 crore per candidate. If all this was white money then EC should take action against BJP for spending  such huge amount

I didn't know that. Then yes the EC should take action if they can prove what you are saying. Still does not say how this is black money though