India v NZ which is best test team in the world?

[goose]

1 hour ago, deathmonger said:

No it isn’t. Three matches before that they got thrashed in india. They were also thrashed in australia

 

in sport there are facts and there are opinions. new facts can emerge like the outcome of this ongoing series. one might argue India are on their way to establishing themselves the dominant side in the world, again that is opinion, and i prefer to have the humility to recognise the difference. but right now the facts says NZ are the best in the world. they have beaten us three times in a row. these are facts. the reasons for those defeats are opinions. when Leicester won the premier league a few years ago, they were the top side in England for that season. you can't just take that away from them.

Edited August 18, 2021 by goose

[deathmonger]

6 hours ago, goose said:

 

in sport there are facts and there are opinions. new facts can emerge like the outcome of this ongoing series. one might argue India are on their way to establishing themselves the dominant side in the world, again that is opinion, and i prefer to have the humility to recognise the difference. but right now the facts says NZ are the best in the world. they have beaten us three times in a row. these are facts. the reasons for those defeats are opinions. when Leicester won the premier league a few years ago, they were the top side in England for that season. you can't just take that away from them.

 

here is also a "fact".

cricket, unlike football and like tennis is a very conditions dependent game. this is not an "opinion". it is a "fact". anyone who watches cricket can tell that.

 

here is also another "fact".

they beat us three times in a row in conditions conductive to them.

 

here is also another "fact".

the three matches they played in india before that they lost three times in a row.

the three matches they played in australia they lost in a row too. that is also a "Fact".

 

 

 

 

 

[deathmonger]

also as far as leicester city goes, it was a league tournament with equal home/away matches. we topped the wtc league with 2 away series wins. nz  won 0 away series.

 

the wtc was like imagine in 06-07 the top 2 players play a final on clay court and the top 2 players happen to be federer and nadal.

 

even in sports like baseball and basketball etc which are not that conditions dependent they do home/away legs in the final.

[R!TTER]

7 hours ago, goose said:

but right now the facts says NZ are the best in the world.

Is that fact based on the "fact" that they beat us in the WTC final? Or that they got whitewashed in Oz, SA, Ind & Bang(?) the last time they toured these nations? Or the "fact" that they only got to play the finals because some smartass thought Oz should be docked points for MCG slow over rate at the last minute, keeping them out of the final? NZ is as much deserving of their "test best" title as Pak in 2016 - when that Ind vs WI game rained out!

[goose]

3 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Is that fact based on the "fact" that they beat us in the WTC final? Or that they got whitewashed in Oz, SA, Ind & Bang(?) the last time they toured these nations? Or the "fact" that they only got to play the finals because some smartass thought Oz should be docked points for MCG slow over rate at the last minute, keeping them out of the final? NZ is as much deserving of their "test best" title as Pak in 2016 - when that Ind vs WI game rained out!

I get all that but why not wait just a little longer to confirm what you know to be true. why undermine efforts in the sport to come up with the best in the world, be it rankings or the WTC? why not wait till the end of this series? why put your own credibility on the line?

[R!TTER]

Whose credibility? Indian team's credibility's at stake here, not any one poster's, & to a lesser extent NZ at least till they visit India.

[goose]

1 hour ago, deathmonger said:

 

here is also a "fact".

cricket, unlike football and like tennis is a very conditions dependent game. this is not an "opinion". it is a "fact". anyone who watches cricket can tell that.

allowing for those conditions with any kind of precision does involve opinion

 

here is also another "fact".

they beat us three times in a row in conditions conductive to them.

conducive = opinion

 

here is also another "fact".

the three matches they played in india before that they lost three times in a row. agree

the three matches they played in australia they lost in a row too. that is also a "Fact". agree

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[deathmonger]

23 minutes ago, goose said:

 

 

those are not opinions, they are facts.

 

when previous results since dawn of time lead to the same conclusion, it's a fact.

 

nz bowlers and batsmen are better in swinging conditions.

their averages which are a real quantifiable thing attest to that.

 

the current indian team is better than nz in all conditions bar swinging conditions.

averages, w/l ratios which are real numbers attest to that.

 

even "swing" is a quantifiable element because the average swing is a quantifiable number.

[goose]

1 hour ago, R!TTER said:

Whose credibility? Indian team's credibility's at stake here, not any one poster's, & to a lesser extent NZ at least till they visit India.

 

yours and mine. what scoreline, if any, in ongoing series would change your opinion?

[Vijy]

NZ in my mind has a better pace attack for Eng and NZ conditions, but not so much for Aus and SA. And in SC I rate Indian pace attack more (because of Shami + Ummi). So, I think Ind is a bit ahead.

Spin bowling - no contest. Ashwin is light years better.

Wicket keepers - Although Pant is genuine match winner, he is a bit inconsistent (both in keeping and batting), although improving rapidly. I give Watling a slight advantage.

Batting - to me, this is where NZ is somewhat better, but mostly because our No. 3-5 are very poor right now.

 

Comparing Ind vs NZ:

On the whole, I think Ind would win in SC (4 countries), in Aus, in WI (where the pitches can get a bit SC-like or Aus-like), and potentially in SA [I dunno about Zim/Afg/Ire since they are too niche]

NZ would win in Eng and NZ

In total: 6 or 7 for Ind and 2 or 3 for NZ. So, overall, Ind is a better team.

 

But our batting is a big issue for future. We have gotten so hung up on pace bowling that our spin reserves and batting reserves are quite iffy.

[Trichromatic]

NZ is more balanced side.

 

India has one of the worst batting line up and best bowling line up.

[Lord]

abhi bhi doubt hai?

[Forever Indian]

As I posted, defeat in WTC Final and Test Rankings mean something... NZ is atleast on par with India in Test.

[figo6762]

41 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

NZ is more balanced side.

 

India has one of the worst batting line up and best bowling line up.

And worst kaptann 

[Frustrated]

The way we are playing, Any kiwi user going through this thread would be quietly laughing at us.  

[ravishingravi]

India minus Kohli is best team in the world. Minus Shastri is the best team of last 5 years. 

[prudent_kreeda]

Time to leave out India from that comparison list for some time 

[sumit quiet]

India is lucky that they will loose 3-1 instead of 5-0 humiliation

[Trichromatic]

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
New Zealand	2020-2021	10	8	1	0	1	8.000	39.41	3.32	17	659	136	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
England	2020-2021	20	9	6	0	4	1.500	31.12	3.16	36	583	81	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Pakistan	2020-2021	12	6	4	0	2	1.500	30.56	2.94	20	510	169	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
India	2020-2021	14	6	5	0	2	1.200	26.13	2.90	26	365	36	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Afghanistan	2021-2021	2	1	1	0	0	1.000	32.82	3.28	4	545	131	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Australia	2020-2021	5	2	2	0	1	1.000	33.28	3.11	10	454	191	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
South Africa	2020-2021	9	4	5	0	0	0.800	27.32	2.99	16	621	174	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
West Indies	2020-2021	13	4	7	0	2	0.571	24.66	2.92	26	409	97	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Bangladesh	2020-2021	7	2	4	0	1	0.500	38.40	3.24	13	560	168	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Sri Lanka	2020-2021	10	2	4	0	4	0.500	34.62	3.05	19	648	126	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Zimbabwe	2020-2021	8	1	6	0	1	0.166	25.74	2.78	16	406	132

 

 

Notice

 

W/L ratio of NZ

Highest score of India

Lowest score of India

 

 

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
New Zealand	2020-2021	10	8	1	0	1	8.000	39.41	3.32	17	659	136	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
England	2020-2021	20	9	6	0	4	1.500	31.12	3.16	36	583	81	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Pakistan	2020-2021	12	6	4	0	2	1.500	30.56	2.94	20	510	169	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
India	2020-2021	14	6	5	0	2	1.200	26.13	2.90	26	365	36	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Afghanistan	2021-2021	2	1	1	0	0	1.000	32.82	3.28	4	545	131	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Australia	2020-2021	5	2	2	0	1	1.000	33.28	3.11	10	454	191	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
South Africa	2020-2021	9	4	5	0	0	0.800	27.32	2.99	16	621	174	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
West Indies	2020-2021	13	4	7	0	2	0.571	24.66	2.92	26	409	97	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Bangladesh	2020-2021	7	2	4	0	1	0.500	38.40	3.24	13	560	168	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Sri Lanka	2020-2021	10	2	4	0	4	0.500	34.62	3.05	19	648	126	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Zimbabwe	2020-2021	8	1	6	0	1	0.166	25.74	2.78	16	406	132

 

 

Notice

 

W/L ratio of NZ

Highest score of India

Lowest score of India

 

 

Eng is experiencing a kind of revival IMO. even in Ind, they did not do terribly. and NZ had a favorable luck of the draw - with that said, still a high quality team. Not much to say about Pakistan, who played some weak teams in this period. Oz should be higher up but their batting is nearly as bad as ours.