Time to reopen the debate- 6 batsman vs 5 batsman + 1 all rounder

[Ankit_sharma03]

I knw @Gollum already have a 7+4 thread but thats just for oval test, this is a debate for a future team template 

I hve seen a lot of recent post in which people are debating on this template again , so lets reopen it 

 

Team started thinking on this lines after 2013-14 Sa n Nz tour where our fast bowlers were overburdened  and they started breaking down. Next england tour we played binny for 1st 2 test but then oddly changed it and went back to 6 batsman with rohit. Once Kohli became the captain he soon went back to it with Binny in SL and then he had Hardik n jadeja n recently sundar n Axar. 

 

Why it was needed

 

• One of the biggest reason was that our current lot of batsman didnt bowl at all , infact none of them did 
• Our fast bowler fitness back then wasnt that great and they use to become tired by the end of the day and started leaking runs. 
• When opp piled on 500 runs against us then it became hard with just 4 bowlers 

 

Results after Trial 

 

• A lot of bowler friendly conditions has lead to opposition being dismiss for low scores which most times didnt require the 5th bowler. This a lot of times have lead to questions like whats the need  of 5th bowler. 
• Our fast bowlers are bowling with full steam whole day 
• Also now our fast bowlers fitness have improved
• Problem - our inconsistent batting is making us feel the need for extra cushion in batting
• Hardik wasnt consistent with bat overseas and will never be as well coz like dhoni he is also bottom hand heavy player
• Jadeja has become consistent with bat but his bowling overseas isnt much impactful. A lot of times he is stuck with tail which is where his limitation as batsman come in
• Sundar bowling is again not as strong 
• Until this series our tail was also very fragile adding more to our batting problems

 

So we went for a plan to help our bowling as in test its bowler who wins u the game but batsman arent able to support it , well batsman may not win u test but they can certainty loose u the game.

 

 

So whats do you suggest and reasons behind it

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[vvvslaxman]

Ashwin has more Test centuries than Jadeja. Jadeja is probably in form. But he is not so far ahead of Ashwin in batting department.  Having said that at this point Jaddu is one of the best batsman in the side. Looked better in England than some of the top order batsmen. So he will be backed. But the problem is after him we have a long tail. So often times his compete usefulness is not realized. One way they can prevent is pushing him to no.5 and slide Rahane down to 6. Ideally should be kicked out. Atleast guys like Vihari were able to bowl.

[Ankit_sharma03]

My take stick to 5+1 

 

Reason-

• Even our young batsman wont be consistent either, infact they wont be any better so playing one extra inconsistent batsman wont help either. All it takes is one ball to dismiss a batsman 
• Apart from vihari no one bowls so the we re trigger the other problem 
• If any of the batsman on bench wud gives u confidence that he ll help our batting well replace pujara- rahane and then if u have enough talent u can add one more
• Jadeja has been consistent with bat so why drop him for guys who arent, replace the ones who arent
• If their were options like smith, root, williamson avl in abundance i wud have thought about it 

Solution- 2 all rounder - one batting + one bowling 

 

Teams around the world are doing it for a reason

 

1. England batting also struggling yet stokes, curran, moeen is always their (stokes can play as batsman but even without him they stuck with curran or moeen )
2. Pakistan - they were struggling with 4 bowlers so they started playing shadab as all rounder and now with faheem they have found a pretty good solution
3. Aus - always kept marsh, head around and smith n marnus cud always bowl....now they have found a great talent in Cameron green
4. NZ - they also play santner, CDGH 
5. WI- Chase and their batting is even more fragile then us 
6. bang- lucky to have Shakib
7. Sa- Linde, Mulder

 

Out of all apart from NZ all of them are fragile batting lineups . 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Ashwin has more Test centuries than Jadeja. Jadeja is probably in form. But he is not so far ahead of Ashwin in batting department.  Having said that at this point Jaddu is one of the best batsman in the side. Looked better in England than some of the top order batsmen. So he will be backed. But the problem is after him we have a long tail. So often times his compete usefulness is not realized. One way they can prevent is pushing him to no.5 and slide Rahane down to 6. Ideally should be kicked out. Atleast guys like Vihari were able to bowl.

Ashwin always had the batting talent but he also has a knack of throwing it away around 40s which is understandable since he is a bowler so he ll work more on that aspect 

[Lone Wolf]

My take..  If you are going to play three duds like Pujara Rahane Kohli in same team better to go with 7/4 combo.  You are witnessing weakest batting line up in Indian history in last 25 years.  Desperate times call for desperate measures. 

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Ashwin always had the batting talent but he also has a knack of throwing it away around 40s which is understandable since he is a bowler so he ll work more on that aspect 

Ashwin is good on bouncy tracks. Will struggle when ball swings.

[Trichromatic]

What will bowlers do if they have only 1 inning to bowl in. 

[Samcric]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Ashwin is good on bouncy tracks. Will struggle when ball swings.

That is the case for each and every Indian batsman. India does not even have net bowlers who SWING the ball. They should have taken the likes of Sandeep Sharma and Deepak Chahar just for net practice.

 

So the only practice they get is when Anderson bowls to them!!

 

[Samcric]

6 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

I knw @Gollum already have a 7+4 thread but thats just for oval test, this is a debate for a future team template 

I hve seen a lot of recent post in which people are debating on this template again , so lets reopen it 

 

Team started thinking on this lines after 2013-14 Sa n Nz tour where our fast bowlers were overburdened  and they started breaking down. Next england tour we played binny for 1st 2 test but then oddly changed it and went back to 6 batsman with rohit. Once Kohli became the captain he soon went back to it with Binny in SL and then he had Hardik n jadeja n recently sundar n Axar. 

 

Why it was needed

 

• One of the biggest reason was that our current lot of batsman didnt bowl at all , infact none of them did 
• Our fast bowler fitness back then wasnt that great and they use to become tired by the end of the day and started leaking runs. 
• When opp piled on 500 runs against us then it became hard with just 4 bowlers 

 

Results after Trial 

 

• A lot of bowler friendly conditions has lead to opposition being dismiss for low scores which most times didnt require the 5th bowler. This a lot of times have lead to questions like whats the need  of 5th bowler. 
• Our fast bowlers are bowling with full steam whole day 
• Also now our fast bowlers fitness have improved
• Problem - our inconsistent batting is making us feel the need for extra cushion in batting
• Hardik wasnt consistent with bat overseas and will never be as well coz like dhoni he is also bottom hand heavy player
• Jadeja has become consistent with bat but his bowling overseas isnt much impactful. A lot of times he is stuck with tail which is where his limitation as batsman come in
• Sundar bowling is again not as strong 
• Until this series our tail was also very fragile adding more to our batting problems

 

So we went for a plan to help our bowling as in test its bowler who wins u the game but batsman arent able to support it , well batsman may not win u test but they can certainty loose u the game.

 

 

So whats do you suggest and reasons behind it

 

 

Indian tail when you play 4 seamers becomes too long. Unlike Aus & Eng, our seamers can't bat. This is the core problem. In fact when we play at home, you can easily play 5 bowlers because all of our spinners bat. In fact you can play quartet of spinners without compromising batting:

 

7. Jadeja

8. Sundar

9. Ashwin

10. Axar

11. Bumrah/Siraj

 

For SENA, we desperately need a seamer who can bat at 8 and average 25. Another one (hopefully Bumrah/Siraj can work on their batting) who bats at 9 and can average 15.

 

Especially for England, we need BCCI to incentivize young batsmen to spend 1-2 seasons in county instead of IPL. The mismatch in monetary benefits makes it impossible for them to take that call. Without the necessary skills, it does not matter how many batsmen you play in England. In the current Indian line up, only Rohit and KL seem to be somewhat capable and confident of negating the swing. We need to recognize that playing the Dukes ball in England is insanely difficult and as a batsman, you are never in. It takes a lot of practice, skill, patience and determination. It is definitely more difficult than playing kookabura in Aus, SA & NZ where once you have survived a tough spell, it gets easier as the old ball doesn't swing as much. 

 

 

 

 

[Majestic]

Since we are talking about the Indian team and our benchmark is relatively higher compared to some other teams, I would say, we need to be aware of the kind of all-rounder we need.

 

Jadeja is,in general, a spin bowling A/R but in SENA conditions, if he is playing in this team as batting A/R then he must bat higher than no.7.  His bowling has been just of a 5th bowler making sure that he keeps his pacers fresh.

 

Hence, in that scenario, he needs to contribute a lot more with bat. With that being said, what I mean with contribution with bat is runs per inning and not average. This is only possible if he bats higher, atleast at 6. If he is not worthy of a batsman good enough at no.6 after being tried for few matches, then drop him with an actual batting A/R.

 

On flatter wickets, Pant can be promoted higher but he is a walking wicket currently in England, New Zealand or South African conditions so he should be playing as a keeper who bats and no. 7 is his position for that.

 

In SEN conditions,

 

Bat 1

Bat 2

Bat 3

Bat 4

Bat 5

Batting A/R( like Shakib or Stokes, contributes approx 35 runs per inning on average)

Pant(wkt)

4 bowlers( one of them capable with bat)

 

In subcontinent and Australia, Pant is excellent because he plays spin and bounce well. So, he bats at 6 and we can have Jadeja at no.7.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Majestic

[Lord]

all these combinations won't work unless you fix the main problem i.e. 3-5

 

They need to contribute atleast 100 runs between them.If they do that,we'll mostly be fine

 

For short term,we can swap Jadeja and Pant.

[express bowling]

We need to improve the quality of batsmen and not the quantity.

 

Before this series, Jadeja was averaging around 50 with the bat in the last 4 years ... and he is batting at 7.

 

How many more batsmen do we need !

Edited August 30, 2021 by express bowling

[Gollum]

Match-winning performance coming from Ashwin, calling it first. 

 

I was right about MCG 2020 and I will be right here.

 

Root gonna meet the same fate as Labu and Smith. Hope slip catcher is ready.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

30 minutes ago, Lord said:

all these combinations won't work unless you fix the main problem i.e. 3-5

exactly thats been the probelm all this while (kohli becoming part of it in last 2 yrs)

[Gollum]

But then we will have 5.5 bowlers, an overkill IMO.

 

For future Eng/NZ tours or a green deck in RSA we can go for 6+4+a pace AR like Shankar/Pandya. TM and selectors missed a game changing trick by ignoring Shankar in NZ, WTC F and this series. We aren't exactly overflowing with talent in this department. But Shankar is a perfect fit in these conditions, like Grandhomme.

 

In Aus play 3 quicks and Ash-Jaddu. About RSA, let me state my opinion after these 2 tests. I have a feeling that opinions of many people will change after Oval test. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Gollum

[Sandeep99]

Pissant will be dropped. I'd also drop Jadeja and play both Ashwin and Sky. 

[Sandeep99]

Rohit

Mayank

Pujara 

Clown

Rahul

Sky

Pant

Ashwin

Shami

Bumrah

Siraj

[Sandeep99]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Match-winning performance coming from Ashwin, calling it first. 

 

I was right about MCG 2020 and I will be right here.

 

Root gonna meet the same fate as Labu and Smith. Hope slip catcher is ready.

 

 

Root is better than both but yes, Ashwin needs to play ahead of Jadeja now. Beef up the batting and play Ashwin to not weaken the bowling. 

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, Sandeep99 said:

Root is better than both but yes, Ashwin needs to play ahead of Jadeja now. Beef up the batting and play Ashwin to not weaken the bowling. 

 

play both.Jadeja's been batting well.Bat him at 6

[Lord]

4 minutes ago, Sandeep99 said:

Root is better than both but yes, Ashwin needs to play ahead of Jadeja now. Beef up the batting and play Ashwin to not weaken the bowling. 

 

how is Root better than Smith?