Good old familiar LOI scorecard!

[zen]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Ok this is the bottom line 

 

Out of 65 ODIs he played, Pandya has 1 50 chasing successfully in Indore against Aus. None outside India. If Jadeja is useless in ODIs, Pandya for 6 years has returned zilch on investment. we need a reliable MO. Tuk tuk Rohit is not a solution in retort. He has been winning more than the unreliable MO in last 5 years.
 

And people here compare him to Kapil Dev, Ben Stokes.. Even Chaminda Vaas was a better matchwinner

This thread is not on SDP but on the “top order” where some players have been playing since years. SDP is just one out of 4 MO slots (25%) and there too he has batted at #6-7, while those two form 2 out of the top 3 (66%).
 

Note that Tuk Tuk Sharma who debuted in 2007 was himself called Maggi noodles or whatever in his first 5-7 years (Not sure if you supported him at that time). He only found his space once sent to open (so relatively a failure in middle order). 2-3 good years in a career spanning 15-16 years (that too after playing years of international cricket) doesn't make anything worthwhile (if criticizing players who have played far less and that too when someone started out mostly as a bowler and contributes through multiple skills) 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by zen

[raki05]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

India  backed cameo kings instead of innings builders who can finish in the middle order. 

 

This match is from the 90s. India was 58/0 suddenly reduced 64/4.  Lost 4 wickets for 6 runs.  Then Azharuddin exhibited the art of singles/twos taking.  He hit a grand total of 5 fours. But strike rate in the end was 94.  India came extremely close before they imploded.  3 early wickets should absolutely mean nothing. Rest should be able to develop a partnership and resurrect the innings. 

 

Full Scorecard of Sri Lanka vs India 1st ODI 1997 - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

Many world cup winning sides have suffered collapses in their journey. They managed to come back into the game. Australia in 1996 in the semis were 15/4 ,   In 2003 world cup they were 84/7 against NZ.  India was 17/5 in 1983 world cup against zimbabwe.  Teams who have the ability to overcome adverse situations win world cups.  Not completely depending on the top order.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTw who can forget 24 yo Raina playing first match in wc11 india were already 6 down at 185 against aus chasing 265 and he build partnership with yuvi and won that crunch match against rampging 

 Lee and Tait. Not only that he went ahead and played an all important knock against pak in sf some 50 runs which took us india past 250 and we won 2 back to back crunch games which were our nemesis for long time. Now that is what you call remarkable performance at crunch time. Rains still mocked and laughed around by people of being dhoni stooge and a short ball failure. Inspite of having all those limitations he played selflessly and help us win wc and now you see this hopeless mo where a chapri player has already announced as GOAT and better than Kapil and Stokes. Looks like some people have no shame though they shipped to self annointed first world but still post third class junk on ICF .

Edited July 15, 2022 by raki05

[zen]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

Not people only some first world junk analyst.. I am surprise that we have die hard fans for chapri player like Pandya. This is the lowest one can stoop to player worshipping.

 

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

Inspite of having all those limitations he played selflessly and help us win wc and now you see this hopeless mo where a chapri player has already announced as GOAT and better than Kapil and Stokes. Looks like some people have no shame though they shipped to self annointed first world but still post third class junk on ICF .

 

I see that you attempt to write against me on various threads but I have zero interest in you  ... If all you do is copy other people's words and use them back, along with making stuff up, waste your time ... There are tons of folks like you on social media 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by zen

[Vijy]

familiar top order failings when the pitch has something in it for the bowlers. this same trio are bound to run away once they face boult, shaheen, any left-arm pacer. and middle order can't soak up the pressure either

Edited July 15, 2022 by Vijy

[Stan AF]

Question should be like can the middle order actually bat?. Today was a good opportunity for the middle order to stand up and chase this relatively 250 odd score?. What is sky, pant and jaddu doing?

 

Hardik Bondiya is a regular failure with the bat in int'l cricket!! The less said the better

[Stan AF]

Does india have a middle order?.

[A1Singga]

IMO we need deepak chahar and/or thakur in our lower order. both Thakur and chahar have proven that they can score in pressure situations as evident from Sa odi series and eng test series.

besides Shami no one else can bat. If we replace chahal with another bowiling alrounder like Krunal we will have a good batting unit . only bumrah will be the one that cannot bat.

But I know this will not be the case as they will always prefer the traditional 4 bowlers win which one can hoick some runs (like shami but not a proper batsmen) and 5 batsmen and 2 AR. we can have 2 proper bowlers+ 4 AR and 5 bastmen

[raki05]

32 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Does india have a middle order?.

Yes GOAT chapri Bhai...

[raki05]

34 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Question should be like can the middle order actually bat?. Today was a good opportunity for the middle order to stand up and chase this relatively 250 odd score?. What is sky, pant and jaddu doing?

 

Hardik Bondiya is a regular failure with the bat in int'l cricket!! The less said the better

No whenever top 3 fail its crunch situation and mo lead by chapri Bhai and superuseless Jadega is not responsible to chase or clear the mess created by top order. If we win due to top order performance it's due to their stat padding and when we loose, it's just that top order can't handle pressure. 

[putrevus]

5 hours ago, Vijy said:

familiar top order failings when the pitch has something in it for the bowlers. this same trio are bound to run away once they face boult, shaheen, any left-arm pacer. and middle order can't soak up the pressure either

You must kidding, or you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you think those top three have scored  more than 80 odi tons on just flat wickets.

[SRT100]

5 hours ago, Vijy said:

familiar top order failings when the pitch has something in it for the bowlers. this same trio are bound to run away once they face boult, shaheen, any left-arm pacer. and middle order can't soak up the pressure either

 

Instead of running away with their tail between their legs, its their bat.

Absolute cowards of Indian Cricket. Im ashamed of them. In particular Kohli and Dhawan, useless, irrelevant and too old.

 

Disgusting strike rate, disgusting effort when the team needs them.

Can only perform on dead pitches.

[putrevus]

So for some morons, if top three chase these small totals , see they are padding their stats.If they fail, see they cannot handle even slightest movement.

 

So what are other people in team doing?Just making up numbers.

[Adamant]

Pandya Started out as a bowler 

 

Hadd ho gayi yaar chutiyapa ki. 

 

 

[Adamant]

6 hours ago, Vijy said:

familiar top order failings when the pitch has something in it for the bowlers. this same trio are bound to run away once they face boult, shaheen, any left-arm pacer. and middle order can't soak up the pressure either

Well The top 3 have actually scored against the likes of Amir, Shaheen, Starc in World cup, Asia cup, wt20. 

 

You only remember the failures, that's your problem and not their inability. 

 

[zen]

7 hours ago, Vijy said:

familiar top order failings when the pitch has something in it for the bowlers. this same trio are bound to run away once they face boult, shaheen, any left-arm pacer. and middle order can't soak up the pressure either

Mukesh Chaudary, the upcoming left arm CSK seamer, can create panic in this top order

 

For Boult, Shaeen, etc., these would be seen as easy pickings 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by zen

[coffee_rules]

10 hours ago, zen said:

This thread is not on SDP but on the “top order” where some players have been playing since years. SDP is just one out of 4 MO slots (25%) and there too he has batted at #6-7, while those two form 2 out of the top 3 (66%).
 

Note that Tuk Tuk Sharma who debuted in 2007 was himself called Maggi noodles or whatever in his first 5-7 years (Not sure if you supported him at that time). He only found his space once sent to open (so relatively a failure in middle order). 2-3 good years in a career spanning 15-16 years (that too after playing years of international cricket) doesn't make anything worthwhile (if criticizing players who have played far less and that too when someone started out mostly as a bowler and contributes through multiple skills) 

 

 

I don't think mine was a dig at Pandya. Your nickname SDP is more of a dig comparing him to Sir Don. It seems very sarcastic given his numbers. He started out as an allrounder as  late order hitter in T20s. Just like Jadeja, his batting skills are overrated in ODIs and Jadeja has better performance numbers. Mine was a lament of Indian  cricket since 2011. We have never found somebody of the calibre of Yuvraj, Raina, Dhoni in ODIs. All replacements have failed and we are reaching SFs in WCs based on Top order blitzs alone. I guess India missed the boat to nurture MO bats like Ambati, Jadhav, Pandey, etc all didn't get enough chances. We have given Pandya and Jadeja enough chances to criticize they didn't get enough. But still, even today, we have to win matches based on Top 3 batting only. Pant has some good batting in India recently. But he is very unreliable. Other teams have good MOs and explosive open batters. We have careful openers who believe in bat through the innings , maybe it was Dhoni philosophy after 2011. Lambe race ke ghode ODIs mein haarte hain.

[Mesky99]

10 hours ago, raki05 said:

BTw who can forget 24 yo Raina playing first match in wc11 india were already 6 down at 185 against aus chasing 265 and he build partnership with yuvi and won that crunch match against rampging 

 Lee and Tait. Not only that he went ahead and played an all important knock against pak in sf some 50 runs which took us india past 250 and we won 2 back to back crunch games which were our nemesis for long time. Now that is what you call remarkable performance at crunch time. Rains still mocked and laughed around by people of being dhoni stooge and a short ball failure. Inspite of having all those limitations he played selflessly and help us win wc and now you see this hopeless mo where a chapri player has already announced as GOAT and better than Kapil and Stokes. Looks like some people have no shame though they shipped to self annointed first world but still post third class junk on ICF .

Great point, he put his hand up during crunch situations, played another gem batting at three against SA in 2010 t20 world cup, hit a fine partnership with vvs against sl in 2010 on a fifth day pitch. Yusuf won a few games to with the bat.

 

[zen]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

 

I don't think mine was a dig at Pandya. Your nickname SDP is more of a dig comparing him to Sir Don. It seems very sarcastic given his numbers. He started out as an allrounder as  late order hitter in T20s. Just like Jadeja, his batting skills are overrated in ODIs and Jadeja has better performance numbers. Mine was a lament of Indian  cricket since 2011. We have never found somebody of the calibre of Yuvraj, Raina, Dhoni in ODIs. All replacements have failed and we are reaching SFs in WCs based on Top order blitzs alone. We have given Pandya and Jadeja enough chances to criticize they didn't get enough. But still, even today, we have to win matches based on Top 3 batting only. Pant has some good batting in India recently. But he is very unreliable. Other teams have good MOs and explosive open batters. We have careful openers who believe in bat through the innings , maybe it was Dhoni philosophy after 2011. Lambe race ke ghode ODIs mein haarte hain.

 

ARs batting at #6-8 are in to provide balance to the side, while those batting in the top order (#1-3) are usually specialist batsmen. AR's contribute in multi areas, while specialist have to focus on one discipline. If specialist bat like ARs and that too in the top order, the preferred batting slot for most batsmen in LOIs, it may be time to bring in those who can bat like specialist batsmen: 

 

Below are the stats in ODIs at #6-7:

Primary team India  Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies  Batting position between 6 and 7  Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 250  and matches played greater than or equal to 20  Ordered by batting average (descending)   Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0   M Azharuddin 1985-1999 25 20 10 597 108* 59.70 639 93.42 1 1 0   MS Dhoni 2005-2019 179 149 49 4637 139* 46.37 5527 83.89 2 33 4   KM Jadhav 2014-2020 46 34 14 859 120 42.95 777 110.55 1 2 1   HH Pandya 2016-2022 44 28 4 867 92* 36.12 779 111.29 0 6 3   A Jadeja 1992-2000 55 48 10 1303 119 34.28 1732 75.23 1 6 2   YK Pathan 2008-2012 40 28 9 627 123* 33.00 532 117.85 2 3 3   SK Raina 2005-2018 78 68 14 1740 106 32.22 1903 91.43 1 8 7   Yuvraj Singh 2000-2011 61 51 8 1363 98* 31.69 1725 79.01 0 10 2   RA Jadeja 2009-2022 114 83 29 1645 87 30.46 1935 85.01 0 8 6   RJ Shastri 1982-1992 66 55 11 1279 73* 29.06 1662 76.95 0 7 2   RG Sharma 2007-2012 20 18 7 266 58 24.18 347 76.65 0 1 1   RR Singh 1989-2001 86 76 16 1436 75 23.93 1987 72.26 0 6 3   N Kapil Dev 1978-1994 162 142 29 2700 87 23.89 2977 90.69 0 10 11   M Kaif 2002-2006 60 49 10 914 87* 23.43 1219 74.97 0 5 3   IK Pathan 2004-2012 30 24 6 384 47* 21.33 554 69.31 0 0 2   NR Mongia 1994-2000 68 49 17 664 69 20.75 941 70.56 0 1 0   PK Amre 1991-1994 29 23 3 384 55 19.20 609 63.05 0 1 1   AK Sharma 1988-1993 20 18 3 279 52* 18.60 309 90.29 0 2 2

 

SDP, since you are focused on him, is among the best, while bringing in pace bowling, which India struggles to produce, and excellent fielding to the mix. He has a better 50+/innings ratio than Raina and Yuvi in the lower middle order (#6-7). Yuvi hit a 50+ score in 1 out of 6 innings and Raina in 1 out of 8 innings, while SDP in only 28 innings so far goes at 1 in 5 innings and expected to get better! ... For reference, Dhoni hit 1 50+ score in 4 innings, Jadhav roughly 1 in 11, Azhar 1 in 13, and Kapil 1 in 14. 

 

Only a handful of players have averaged 40+ in the lower middle order and that too helped by a relatively large # of not outs. Even those who bat in top order (#1-3) have not done well in the lower middle order (#6-7), for e.g. Tuk Tuk only averages 24 and has 1 50+ score in 18 innings. 

 

 

Quote

I guess India missed the boat to nurture MO bats like Ambati, Jadhav, Pandey, etc all didn't get enough chances.

 

Since cricket has evolved, those you listed  are not going to be batting at #6-7 unless they can bowl. Jadhav had a good run as he may have played during his purple patch but he is not an option now. Even IPL teams don't play him. 

 

 

I understand that KL-Rohit-etc may be your favorite players but they are specialist batsmen assigned to do a role. Can't hide by blaming #6-7.  If they want to bat like #6-8 (and ARs), while batting in the top of the order, better to bring in other batsmen ... Among the key reasons that the thread focuses on those slotted in the premier batting positions (#1-3), based on the "current abilities". 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by zen

[Lord]

I agree with OP. Top 3 go missing too many times and from there its always tough. Giving examples of Aus of 2000s dont fit. We arent that good.

[nitinbwj]

9 minutes ago, Mesky99 said:

Great point, he put his hand up during crunch situations, played another gem batting at three against SA in 2010 t20 world cup, hit a fine partnership with vvs against sl in 2010 on a fifth day pitch. Yusuf won a few games to with the bat.

 

Yusuf almost single handedly won us a match in SA smashing 10 sixes.