Are our whiteball issues getting sorted?

[rollingstoned]

We finished our whiteball engagements beginning from the t20 series against Nzl away in November and ended it by handing out the worst thrashing Nzl has suffered in the decider. Relative to the issues we had in the wt20 - most of which was self inflicted due to poor selection - and keeping in mind that the odi format will be of greater relevance now because of the world cup I can find the team getting more sorted. Oldies are closer to being phased out with one or two like Ashwin and Karthik probably now consigned to oblivion, we got a good unselfish t20 batsman in Tripathi who is in Sky's mould, Kuldeep has made a strong comeback to the side in all formats of the game making him now very hard to ignore, Gill and Kishan are both double centurions now with the former looking set to become the next all format Indian batting superstar and Siraj has become the undisputed leader of the attack along with perhaps now also being the best ODI bowler in the world.

There are also other things like Umran Malik not hurting his case to be a permanent fixture of whiteball teams in this series of 10+ matches that we have played and Kohli having found some sort of form now along with having gotten the century monkey off his back. Of course questions like being able to give a good account of ourselves during knockout matches and important games still lurk over the team in general.

Are we in a better place now both world cup and team composition wise?

Edited February 3, 2023 by rollingstoned

[tweaker]

We need someone like Tewatia,,Venkatesh in the late middle order

[vvvslaxman]

No. Shubman Gill form is masking a lot of holes.  Our no.3 batsman has to be atleast half as good as he used to be. Also our batting stops at 7.

[Chakdephatte]

• We cannot find a no. 8 without hurting the bowling quality.

 

• Lack power and range against pace at 6-7 (weakness inherent in sc teams).

 

• Need to see more of Kohli to get a fair idea of his improvement.

 

• Pant's injury to aggravate the batting woes. Replacements are not of same quality.

 

 

Positives-

We are more ruthless at home and against minnows. Also preparing the type of pitches the visitors don't like, loving it. Helps that the World Cup in India.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Chakdephatte

[AuxiliA]

Need a bowling AR at no 8 if we want to beat a team like Eng which bats deep. 

 

[Chakdephatte]

3 minutes ago, AuxiliA said:

Need a bowling AR at no 8 if we want to beat a team like Eng which bats deep. 

 

England are incomparable. They have 5-6 batsmen who are-

• All length hitters

• Can play hard length (each of them)

• No issues against spin outside sc atleast.

• No more than one anchor (Root/Malan).

• Their 5-6 can stabilize the innings as well as smash it. Buttler, Stokes are best lower order in the world.

 

I don't think they even need to bat this deep.

 

[AuxiliA]

24 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

England are incomparable. They have 5-6 batsmen who are-

• All length hitters

• Can play hard length (each of them)

• No issues against spin outside sc atleast.

• No more than one anchor (Root/Malan).

• Their 5-6 can stabilize the innings as well as smash it. Buttler, Stokes are best lower order in the world.

 

I don't think they even need to bat this deep.

 

 

Having depth in batting is what enables Eng's top order to play with more intent. It's not as if their batsmen are far ahead in terms of ability than ours. 

 

They don't dominate like the Aussies of 00s. Not even close. They just click as a team due to modern strategies and proper team selection. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

23 minutes ago, AuxiliA said:

 

Having depth in batting is what enables Eng's top order to play with more intent. It's not as if their batsmen are far ahead in terms of ability than ours. 

 

They don't dominate like the Aussies of 00s. Not even close. They just click as a team due to modern strategies and proper team selection. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They have their own share of hacks. Just that they just need one hack to click.

[rollingstoned]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

No. Shubman Gill form is masking a lot of holes.  Our no.3 batsman has to be atleast half as good as he used to be. Also our batting stops at 7.

Wouldn't Gill fill one of those holes now though?

 

Quote

• We cannot find a no. 8 without hurting the bowling quality.

 

• Lack power and range against pace at 6-7 (weakness inherent in sc teams).

 

• Need to see more of Kohli to get a fair idea of his improvement.

 

• Pant's injury to aggravate the batting woes. Replacements are not of same quality.

 

Wouldn't Axar fill that no. 8 hole though? At least in the subcontinent. Or even Jadeja.

Our team is configured - at least seems to - to maximise our bowling resources. We don't need to compete with England in every batting position as a result imo.

[figo6762]

Are u kidding me .. dead weight nominations :

 

a. Rohit ( don’t care how much he scores , want some one else )

b. kL please no

c. Kohli same as rohit

e. No hooda pls .. he’s just not good 

f. No chahal .. we have to prepare spinning wickets for this guy to bowl well and if we do our batsman are screwed 

g. No shami please he’s not an odi bowler

h. No Thakur pls .. can’t chase 350 all the time 

i. No iyer pls … can’t play short ball ..

imho only ppl that pick themselves :

a. Gill

b. SKY

c. Hardik( coz we don’t have medium pace all rounder in the entire country)

d. kishan (coz we need a keeper and hitter at the top)

e. Umran 

f. Arshdeep / or leftarmer 

g. Kuldeep ( we need variety)

h. Siraj

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by figo6762

[Majestic]

The major positive that we have achieved from past one month is that we have been picking Kuldeep Yadav over Yuzvendra Chahal. This makes it easier for us as Kuldeep can bat at 8 and you get a proper wrist spinner who is a wicket taker and has got multiple variations.

 

Now, play three pacers - Bumrah, Siraj and Shami/Umran/anyone else if they make a mark.

 

Coming to batting now, you have Jadeja at 7 and Pandya at 6 with Sundar as backup. Pandya needs to take more responsibility with bat as he is the go to finisher India can think of as we go into World Cups. Iyer at 4 will look to save us after initial collapse and Rahul at 5 can try to take on the older ball although his credibility under pressure is not good.

 

On some days, we can send Jadeja at 5 too because he is the only left hander in the team but this makes our reliability on Pandya to finish the game under pressure more. That is the only concern for now. 

[AuxiliA]

44 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

They have their own share of hacks. Just that they just need one hack to click.

 

England have mastered the art of modern white ball cricket. Two important aspects of it (which we must learn) is 'Bat Deep' and 'Don't put a price on your wicket'. Both these work great (& only) in tandem. 

 

In cricket not every batsman needs to bowl but every bowler has to bat at some point. Having Batting depth is a huge asset to have. Also there are no points for saving wickets in the kitty, better to expend it in search of extra runs. England have understood these very well. 

 

The single biggest reason we did so well in Tests over the last decade is the batting ability of our bowlers Jadeja and Ashwin. Imagine how many tests India would have won/saved if Kumble and Harbhajan had the same batting abilities. The Gabba was won because of the batting of Sundar & Thakur as much as it was due to Pant & Gill. 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, AuxiliA said:

 

England have mastered the art of modern white ball cricket. Two important aspects of it (which we must learn) is 'Bat Deep' and 'Don't put a price on your wicket'. Both these work great (& only) in tandem. 

 

In cricket not every batsman needs to bowl but every bowler has to bat at some point. Having Batting depth is a huge asset to have. Also there are no points for saving wickets in the kitty, better to expend it in search of extra runs. England have understood these very well. 

 

The single biggest reason we did so well in Tests over the last decade is the batting ability of our bowlers Jadeja and Ashwin. Imagine how many tests India would have won/saved if Kumble and Harbhajan had the same batting abilities. The Gabba was won because of the batting of Sundar & Thakur as much as it was due to Pant & Gill. 

 

 

 

India could very well have saved the WTC final. We just had to bat out 10 more overs.  Because of the lengthy tail Pant and Ashwin had to throw kitchen sink and get out.

[AuxiliA]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

India could very well have saved the WTC final. We just had to bat out 10 more overs.  Because of the lengthy tail Pant and Ashwin had to throw kitchen sink and get out.

 

That loss was totally on the Trimurti- Pujara, Kohli and Rahane. All they needed to do was just bat out 1 session among themselves and we would have been the joint winners. 

[prudent_kreeda]

Irrespective of results think T20 has been pleasant surprise - team selection wise & future team building wise.

- Gill, Ishan, Tripathi, Jitesh are good addition among batters though couple of them may not be international class  .  

- Umran, Arshdeep, Kuldeep Yadav good additions among bowlers  

- Need to bring in Samson , Shaw , Patidar(?)  among batters .

- Need to bring in Bishnoi, Mohsin, Tyagi among bowlers.

- Siraj should also be in the radar for important WC matches  once he develops bowling at death.

- Need to zero in on a lower order batter who can give you 2 overs -  Better to test Riyan Parag, Raj Bawa , Tewatia , Venky Iyer, Abhishek Sharma

- Finalise who is the best fit for spinner with batting ability among - Jaddu, Axar, Sundar. Jaddu may be better as a batter but bowling will suffer . 

- Need a good spinner in addition to Kuldeep - Can Bishnoi make it ?

 

Still team is weak till we sort out 

1- Good attacking second opener - One among  Shaw & Samson need to come good 

2-  high quality # 3 & #5 -  No convincing bet as yet ?  Can Ishan /Samson/Patidar step up as a MO  bat ? 

3. - Hardik to step as an attacking bat 

4.  Find good # 7 & #8  -Development of both Raj Bawa & Sundar  - can transform our T20 to a different level.

5.  Find a Quality spinner .

6. Find  at least 2 capable death bowlers  -

7. Return of Bhumra .

We can have 5 pure batters+ Hardik + Bawa + Sundar + 1  Spinner + Jaspreet+ 1 Pacer would be very good team combo. 

 

ODI team still is made up of players past their prime . Need to look at only post WC, till then it will be oldies gang !

 

 

 

 

[rkt.india]

It was a series decider, not a dead rubber.

[zen]

Selectors need to be more bold and make Sir Don the ODI captain. In T20s, we are on the right path with 2 IPLs to come before the next World Cup in 2024.

 

 

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, prudent_kreeda said:

Irrespective of results think T20 has been pleasant surprise - team selection wise & future team building wise.

- Gill, Ishan, Tripathi, Jitesh are good addition among batters though couple of them may not be international class  .  

- Umran, Arshdeep, Kuldeep Yadav good additions among bowlers  

- Need to bring in Samson , Shaw , Patidar(?)  among batters .

- Need to bring in Bishnoi, Mohsin, Tyagi among bowlers.

- Siraj should also be in the radar for important WC matches  once he develops bowling at death.

- Need to zero in on a lower order batter who can give you 2 overs -  Better to test Riyan Parag, Raj Bawa , Tewatia, Venky Iyer, Abhishek Sharma

- Finalise who is the best fit for spinner with batting ability among - Jaddu, Axar, Sundar. Jaddu may be better as a batter but bowling will suffer . 

- Need a good spinner in addition to Kuldeep - Can Bishnoi make it ?

 

You are thinking too far. It's like flipping whole XI in one go. We are playing with 6 which didn't play Semi final against England.

 

3 hours ago, AuxiliA said:

Having depth in batting is what enables Eng's top order to play with more intent. It's not as if their batsmen are far ahead in terms of ability than ours. 

 

Not true at all. It's their nature. Bairstow did it for SRH who didn't even bat till 7. Ability wise they are little better, but they are definety being taught some bodydynamics. Their hitting exceeded every level.

[rollingstoned]

10 hours ago, prudent_kreeda said:

Irrespective of results think T20 has been pleasant surprise - team selection wise & future team building wise.

- Gill, Ishan, Tripathi, Jitesh are good addition among batters though couple of them may not be international class  .  

- Umran, Arshdeep, Kuldeep Yadav good additions among bowlers  

- Need to bring in Samson , Shaw , Patidar(?)  among batters .

- Need to bring in Bishnoi, Mohsin, Tyagi among bowlers.

- Siraj should also be in the radar for important WC matches  once he develops bowling at death.

- Need to zero in on a lower order batter who can give you 2 overs -  Better to test Riyan Parag, Raj Bawa , Tewatia , Venky Iyer, Abhishek Sharma

- Finalise who is the best fit for spinner with batting ability among - Jaddu, Axar, Sundar. Jaddu may be better as a batter but bowling will suffer . 

- Need a good spinner in addition to Kuldeep - Can Bishnoi make it ?

 

Still team is weak till we sort out 

1- Good attacking second opener - One among  Shaw & Samson need to come good 

2-  high quality # 3 & #5 -  No convincing bet as yet ?  Can Ishan /Samson/Patidar step up as a MO  bat ? 

3. - Hardik to step as an attacking bat 

4.  Find good # 7 & #8  -Development of both Raj Bawa & Sundar  - can transform our T20 to a different level.

5.  Find a Quality spinner .

6. Find  at least 2 capable death bowlers  -

7. Return of Bhumra .

We can have 5 pure batters+ Hardik + Bawa + Sundar + 1  Spinner + Jaspreet+ 1 Pacer would be very good team combo. 

 

ODI team still is made up of players past their prime . Need to look at only post WC, till then it will be oldies gang !

 

 

 

 

No Bhuvi in these matches has also not exactly been an eyesore. 

[QuarantineTormentino]

13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

No. Shubman Gill form is masking a lot of holes.  Our no.3 batsman has to be atleast half as good as he used to be. Also our batting stops at 7.

Tbh in t20is we used to have 3 similar players in Rohit KL and Kohli performing the same role (bat through and score big at the end) when Kohli was clearly capable of doing that on his own. At least now we have only one such player in the Kohli mould (Gill) and guys like Tripathi, SKY etc get going from the start instead of playing themselves in. Opening position is a issue with Kishan not able to live up to the expectations but we have a lot of replacements for that position waiting (Shaw, Jaiswal, Tripathi who himself can be promoted to number 3)