Pat Cummins impact a bowler has yet again proved that no matter how good his numbers are - McGrath is the greatest Aussie test bowler of all time

[rangeelaraja]

McGrath - used to dominate our batters in our own conditions. Pat Cummins looked impotent 

[speedracer]

16 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

McGrath - used to dominate our batters in our own conditions. Pat Cummins looked impotent 

People never listen. I have always said this. Bumrah at full fitness is just a better bowler than Cummins. Period. 

 

Bumrah is injury prone but in form he is superior. 

 

Also shami and umesh and siraj are much better bowlers than Cummins and co in Asia. Period.

 

Agree. Mcg is a goat. 

 

People just don't understand cricket in general. Especially fodder coolie fans. No logic at all. No game nous or ability to discern the qualities of a player. 

 

Chuckrah may fail in WTC finals for example but again it was sheer bad luck due to playing right after injury. When he is in rhythm he is more deadly than Cummins and co.

[speedracer]

18 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

McGrath - used to dominate our batters in our own conditions. Pat Cummins looked impotent 

Also mcg did get a lot of shady wickets. That era had some questionable calls. Would have been interesting to see pigeon bowl in this era. He would still be one of the best around easily. Him bumrah and perhaps rabada who is declining now and then Cummins.

[Nikola]

Quite overrated as bowler lol and poor captain too. Boland outbowled him in this match.

[Serpico]

Premature celebration. Still 3 matches left

[R!TTER]

McGrath never dominated India in India, even in 2004 Gillespie & Kasper did the hard work. McGrath also benefited from crying incessantly like a TC, in second innings at Bangalore Sehwag hit the ball flush into his pads but the blind umpire scared sh!t from Pidge's appeal gave him lbw! Among bowlers who've influenced decision just with their appeals Pidge is probably at/near top of the list!

[Lord]

Was unusually mediocre here.

 

Expected him to do a bouncer barrage against atleast Axar but he never tried.

 

Perhaps captaincy is affecting him.

[kohli]

3 hours ago, R!TTER said:

McGrath never dominated India in India, even in 2004 Gillespie & Kasper did the hard work. McGrath also benefited from crying incessantly like a TC, in second innings at Bangalore Sehwag hit the ball flush into his pads but the blind umpire scared sh!t from Pidge's appeal gave him lbw! Among bowlers who've influenced decision just with their appeals Pidge is probably at/near top of the list!

McGrath in india 

8 match -33 wk, avg  -21.30

in 2001

3 match -17 wk avg-15

in 2004 

4 match -14 wk avg -25

 

 

[kohli]

3 hours ago, R!TTER said:

McGrath never dominated India in India, even in 2004 Gillespie & Kasper did the hard work. McGrath also benefited from crying incessantly like a TC, in second innings at Bangalore Sehwag hit the ball flush into his pads but the blind umpire scared sh!t from Pidge's appeal gave him lbw! Among bowlers who've influenced decision just with their appeals Pidge is probably at/near top of the list!

Lol kasprowicz took only 9 wk in 4 match (avg -28)

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

McGrath - used to dominate our batters in our own conditions. Pat Cummins looked impotent 

Yet another reactionary rangeela take.

 

Wasn't it a few hours ago you posted a thread about how India should aim to beat Aus 4-0 to try and get Sri Lanka as WTC final opponents, only to turn around a bit later petitioning mods to "close the thread" because Indian team 'is a sux'.  And now you are back jumping the gun on writing off one of the finest bowlers in test cricket.

 

Seriously Colorful King, lay off the speed pills for a moment, take a breath, and enjoy the cricket.  Its going to be a fun series.

[R!TTER]

In the matches he's played in his best figures at at Wankhede 2001 & Bangalore 2004, both games won by Gilly/Hayden & then Gilly/Clarke with the bat. In that 2004 test Sehwag was definitely not lbw & like I said he used to appeal so incessantly that lots of neutral umpires as well gave "dodgy" decisions in his favor! Sure he'd probably pick similar amounts of wicket today but his economy & avg would likely be higher.

Records type all-round analysis [change type]

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Host country India

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1993-2007	124	641	61	7.36	0	563	8/24	21.64	29	38	0	-14.27	Profile
filtered	1996-2004	8	80	21*	11.42	0	33	4/18	21.30	0	3	0	-9.87

[R!TTER]

9 minutes ago, kohli said:

Lol kasprowicz took only 9 wk in 4 match (avg -28)

Kasper won them the game at Bangalore 1998, from memory he was also relatively good in 2004 though Gillespie was much better.

Records type all-round analysis [change type]

View innings by innings list [change view]

Host country India

Ordered by wickets taken (descending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1996-2006	71	1218	201*	18.73	1	259	7/37	26.13	8	27	0	-7.40	Profile
filtered	2001-2004	7	120	46	12.00	0	33	5/56	21.72	1	0	0	-9.72

Innings by innings list

Inns	Score	Overs	Conc	Wkts	Ct	St		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
2	-	22.5	56	5	0	0		v India	Nagpur	26 Oct 2004	Test # 1718
4	-	16.0	24	4	0	0		v India	Nagpur	26 Oct 2004	Test # 1718
1	-	12.0	29	4	0	0		v India	Wankhede	3 Nov 2004	Test # 1720
4	-	14.4	33	3	0	0		v India	Bengaluru	6 Oct 2004	Test # 1713
3	-	19.0	45	3	0	0		v India	Wankhede	27 Feb 2001	Test # 1531
2	-	11.0	47	2	0	0		v India	Eden Gardens	11 Mar 2001	Test # 1535
4	-	15.0	49	2	0	0		v India	Chennai	18 Mar 2001	Test # 1539
1	-	15.3	50	2	0	0		v India	Wankhede	27 Feb 2001	Test # 1531
2	-	16.2	63	2	0	0		v India	Bengaluru	6 Oct 2004	Test # 1713
2	-	35.0	70	2	0	0		v India	Chennai	14 Oct 2004	Test # 1714
2	-	35.0	88	2	0	0		v India	Chennai	18 Mar 2001	Test # 1539
3	-	31.0	115	2	0	0		v India	Eden Gardens	11 Mar 2001	Test # 1535

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, speedracer said:

People never listen. I have always said this. Bumrah at full fitness is just a better bowler than Cummins. Period. 

 

Bumrah is injury prone but in form he is superior. 

 

Also shami and umesh and siraj are much better bowlers than Cummins and co in Asia. Period.

 

Agree. Mcg is a goat. 

 

People just don't understand cricket in general. Especially fodder coolie fans. No logic at all. No game nous or ability to discern the qualities of a player. 

 

Chuckrah may fail in WTC finals for example but again it was sheer bad luck due to playing right after injury. When he is in rhythm he is more deadly than Cummins and co.

Fully fit and in rhythm Booms is better than Cummins - I agree.  However, Cummins has a very consistent body of work - so much so that his couple of ordinary or sub-par overs in the 1st innings in this match were so noticeably out of character that everybody was shocked.  

 

I love Boomrah - he's our first ever legit lead dog strike bowler, capable of bowling high class fast bowling, coupled with the brains and instincts to work batsmen out, and really lead a bowling unit.  The fact that he has come to the Indian as a 'natural', in spite of playing in a team and cricket culture that simply does not have the framework to create such lead pace bowlers, makes it even more precocious. 

 

But we don't have to run down Cummins to big up Boomrah.  Cummins is a very, very good bowler, and on one aspect - consistency and ability to stay injury free, he is clearly ahead of Jaspreet.

 

Another factor that most people fail to realize is that in test cricket, you can be an excellent bowler, but if the rest of your bowling unit is not up to snuff, other teams can 'play you out' safely, and the bowlers' numbers and perceived "impact" is often reduced.  This is why sometimes bowlers who aren't that great, but are part of a strong bowling unit, or a stronger team, often end up with "better" stats than genuinely great bowlers who find themselves in weaker bowling units and teams.  

 

In this game, Cummins could have bowled better than he did, but when the batting unit gets itself dismissed for 170 odd in 2 session on the first day of a test match, the situation and pressure tilt the probabilities away from Cummins.  The fact that Australia was operating as a 4 man bowling unit, and Lyon was not as effective, also didn't help.  In fact, Aus were actually lucky that they 'only' conceded 400.  Pujara literally gifted his wicket, and Virat got strangled down the legside - these 2 gifts came Australia's way at a key moment in the game, when their best bowler in the game was starting to show fatigue and started dishing out multiple boundary balls in 2 overs back to back.  

 

Anyway, I've rambled on quite a bit on this post, but its a nice lazy Sunday morning, and I'm feeling good enjoying the afterglow of a crushing win against Aus.  Life is good!

[speedracer]

19 hours ago, sandeep said:

Fully fit and in rhythm Booms is better than Cummins - I agree.  However, Cummins has a very consistent body of work - so much so that his couple of ordinary or sub-par overs in the 1st innings in this match were so noticeably out of character that everybody was shocked.  

 

I love Boomrah - he's our first ever legit lead dog strike bowler, capable of bowling high class fast bowling, coupled with the brains and instincts to work batsmen out, and really lead a bowling unit.  The fact that he has come to the Indian as a 'natural', in spite of playing in a team and cricket culture that simply does not have the framework to create such lead pace bowlers, makes it even more precocious. 

 

But we don't have to run down Cummins to big up Boomrah.  Cummins is a very, very good bowler, and on one aspect - consistency and ability to stay injury free, he is clearly ahead of Jaspreet.

 

Another factor that most people fail to realize is that in test cricket, you can be an excellent bowler, but if the rest of your bowling unit is not up to snuff, other teams can 'play you out' safely, and the bowlers' numbers and perceived "impact" is often reduced.  This is why sometimes bowlers who aren't that great, but are part of a strong bowling unit, or a stronger team, often end up with "better" stats than genuinely great bowlers who find themselves in weaker bowling units and teams.  

 

In this game, Cummins could have bowled better than he did, but when the batting unit gets itself dismissed for 170 odd in 2 session on the first day of a test match, the situation and pressure tilt the probabilities away from Cummins.  The fact that Australia was operating as a 4 man bowling unit, and Lyon was not as effective, also didn't help.  In fact, Aus were actually lucky that they 'only' conceded 400.  Pujara literally gifted his wicket, and Virat got strangled down the legside - these 2 gifts came Australia's way at a key moment in the game, when their best bowler in the game was starting to show fatigue and started dishing out multiple boundary balls in 2 overs back to back.  

 

Anyway, I've rambled on quite a bit on this post, but its a nice lazy Sunday morning, and I'm feeling good enjoying the afterglow of a crushing win against Aus.  Life is good!

I agree overall. My response wasn't to put down Cummins. I rate him as one of the best ever but I just despise the fans who keep underrating bumrah when he clearly is a step above at his best. Srianth is another fine example. Had zero support from other pacers and only had kumble in reality. Put him next to bumrah and siraj or shami, I am confident his stats in tests would be sub 25. Bowling does work as a unit. Also pitches make a difference. Unlike sena bowlers who can stat pad in sena countries where pitches are conducive to fast bowling, its generally the opposite in India and Asia overall. Much harder to be a fast bowler in India. 

 

Sure jaydev has good stats but that's ranji. You need to be a special bowler to do well in Asia especially in India. 

[speedracer]

32 minutes ago, kohli said:

McGrath in india 

8 match -33 wk, avg  -21.30

in 2001

3 match -17 wk avg-15

in 2004 

4 match -14 wk avg -25

 

 

I believe mcg in an interview said his favourite place to bowl as a fast bowler is actually india.

[Gollum]

Cummins was impressive in 2017 series, but obviously guys like him, Rabada, Boult, Broad etc. need to do a lot more in India to prove their completeness. 

 

Anderson is one player who has surprised and impressed me, though largely mediocre in India he had a big role to play in 2 wins in India, 2012 Kolkata and 2021 Chennai. Add to that his excellent record in UAE/Pak, decent enough record in Lanka, longevity, home bullying etc. he has grown on me. Truly an ATG.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Gollum

[Nikhil_cric]

Cummins' body has taken a beating considering how much he has played 3 formats relentlessly. 

 

He needs to manage his workload. Also while Mcgrath was indeed a slightly better bowler I think we have to look at the context. McG played for an extremely strong OZ side with guys who could bat in these conditions.  Not fair to compare Cummins to McG.

 

Not gonna compare Bumrah and Cummins. The fact that Bumrah relies so much on core strength and contraction to generate pace has and will take a great toll on him and its left to be seen how much of a career he has left. 

[putrevus]

How did Bumrah do in 5th test when he captained India to a glorious loss.How did Bumrah do in SA test series deciding test.Pat Cummins is a great bowler who had a bad test where his batsmen made no runs.

 

Is he better than Mcgrath then answer is no.Mcgrath might be the best overall fast bowler from Australia.

 

When Bumrah does something under pressure for a change we can revisit his greatness.All Bumrah has done so far is deliver stinker after stinker in all important matches.

Edited February 11, 2023 by putrevus

[speedracer]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

How did Bumrah do in 5th test when he captained India to a glorious loss.How did Bumrah do in SA test series deciding test.Pat Cummins is a great bowler who had a bad test where his batsmen made no runs.

 

Is he better than Mcgrath then answer is no.Mcgrath might be the best overall fast bowler from Australia.

 

When Bumrah does something under pressure for a change we can revisit his greatness.All Bumrah has done so far is deliver stinker after stinker in all important matches.

What about when bumrah owned Oz in 2018 and helped india win in 2021? 

 

What about stinkers by scummins in Bangladesh and Lanka. He was nothing special against India in 2017 either when he was even better. 

[speedracer]

17 hours ago, Gollum said:

Cummins was impressive in 2017 series, but obviously guys like him, Rabada, Boult, Broad etc. need to do a lot more in India to prove their completeness. 

 

Anderson is one player who has surprised and impressed me, though largely mediocre in India he had a big role to play in 2 wins in India, 2012 Kolkata and 2021 Chennai. Add to that his excellent record in UAE/Pak, decent enough record in Lanka, longevity, home bullying etc. he has grown on me. Truly an ATG.

Correction. Anderson looked good in that one test in India. Ack in 2021 because ehe bowled to WEAK BATSMEN. We played our weakened team with 3 or 4 useless nobodies washedup has been. Put a few ranji team batsmen on those pitches then he would have been taken to the cleaners. 

 

Not to mention if we actually picked a proper 11 with our best batsmen, Anderson stands no chance. He has always been average outside swing conditions.