Shami is the "Lillee" of India

[zen]

Highly skillful, pacey, and entertaining! 

 

The run-up, the seam position, the swing, the seam, the bouncer, the yorker, ..., ... 

 

to Shami!

[Lord]

and Mohit Sharma is the Ambrose of India

[zen]

36 minutes ago, Lord said:

and Mohit Sharma is the Ambrose of India

 

The thread is on Shami (and for his fans) ... the point? 

Edited June 3, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

Very skillful new bowl pacer with the best seam position in the world.

 

Shami and Hazelwood are very similar in terms of output they have generated for their team.

[Jay]

6 hours ago, zen said:

Highly skillful, pacey, and entertaining! 

 

The run-up, the seam position, the swing, the seam, the bouncer, the yorker, ..., ... 

 

to Shami!

Excellent world class bowler. 

If bumrah siraj were there to support him since 2014 instead of 2018 then his numbers would be even better. He is ahead of guys like hazleqood and Johnson. 

Just a tier below bumrah Cummins and prime rabada. 

[zen]

This thread has less to do with stats and more to do with the skills and joy of watching good fast bowling. 
 

Much like how Lillee was skillful and a joy to watch him bowl, Shami too has those qualities! 
 

 

[Jay]

19 minutes ago, zen said:

This thread has less to do with stats and more to do with the skills and joy of watching good fast bowling. 
 

Much like how Lillee was skillful and a joy to watch him bowl, Shami too has those qualities! 
 

 

We talking LOI or tests? I'd the latter, he has had some devastating spells in subcontinent. 

[nevada]

1 hour ago, zen said:

This thread has less to do with stats and more to do with the skills and joy of watching good fast bowling. 
 

Much like how Lillee was skillful and a joy to watch him bowl, Shami too has those qualities! 
 

 

Shami is indeed an enjoyable bowler to watch - smooth run up and action, lovely seam position and quite a few clean bowleds leaving batsmen bamboozled. 

[raki05]

8 hours ago, Lord said:

and Mohit Sharma is the Ambrose of India

I thought Shami ne le li India ki like 21 t20 wc. However this reminds me of Ramiz bhai statement “Babar Hazam is don bradman”.

[Adamant]

As the OP states that this isn't about stats ,performance and aura, then I do agree.

Shami is a powerhouse, hardly gets injured, bowls at the same speed throughout the test (especially in his younger days) has a mean bouncer.
I do think Shami is a bit more skillfull then Lillee, for ex Lillee didn't have a good outswinger and used to rely on cutters, but then he was taller and more powerful which means more speed and bounce and that helped him get in the pantheon of greats.

As for Aura, stats and performance, they aren't close. Shami belongs in the Morne Morkel, Merv Hughes class while Lillee is an ATG.

Shami never had a noticeable peak which is one of the prime factors on which a fast bowler gets rated, for example I will take a prime Ishant Sharma (2016-2020) over any Version of Shami, also Shami doesn't have many memorable performances , I am a big fan but even I couldn't count many.

[Adamant]

Shami has 6 5fers in 63 tests, that's just too low to compare him with the likes of johnson or Hazelwood, also Johnson had a devastating peak and n number of memorable performances

[Jay]

36 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Shami has 6 5fers in 63 tests, that's just too low to compare him with the likes of johnson or Hazelwood, also Johnson had a devastating peak and n number of memorable performances

Look at hazletrundlers record in Asia, even nz and sa he is trash. 

Shami is superior. 

Johnson had a devastating peak for one year vs a broken pommy side. Calm our tips. He has always bene overrated. Trash in Asia as usual. 

[zen]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

We talking LOI or tests? I'd the latter, he has had some devastating spells in subcontinent. 

Format does not matter (though tests would be the key format) as this is just about bowling in general. 

[maniac]

I disagree because Shami is greater than Lillee. Excellent in 4 formats (IPL included). Bowled mostly in unhelpful conditions. Doesn’t chicken out on flat pitches. Infact becomes more lethal on dry pitches with reverse swing the kind Lillee chickened out from.

 

so no!

 

Shami is a tier above Lillee who I acknowledge as a great bowler but a tier lower.

[zen]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Lillee chickened out from.

 

For my information, can you point out which series Lillee "chickened" out from? 

 

(I have seen many posters make incorrect assumptions based on Lillee never having toured India ... If my memory serves me right, Lillee could have only toured India for tests in 79/80 where Aus sent a B team w/ many players tied with Kerry Pecker commitments. After that, he did tour Pak (1980), where Pak prepared pointless roads, on which  Pakistani pacers struggled too, to counter him. He, along with Greg Chappell, missed the tour to Pak in 1982 as he is said to have suffered a knee injury on Aus' tour to NZ. Though he may have memories of Pak preparing pointless roads on the previous tour too.  In 1983, he toured SL (so back in subcon). He retired in 1984 ... On the other hand, a Lillee has served Indian cricket through MRF, helping tons of bowlers.)

Edited June 7, 2023 by zen

[maniac]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

For my information, can you point out which series Lillee "chickened" out from? 

 

(I have seen many posters make incorrect assumptions based on Lillee never having toured India ... If my memory serves me right, Lillee could have only toured India for tests in 79/80 where Aus sent a B team w/ many players tied with Kerry Pecker commitments. After that, he did tour Pak (1980), where Pak prepared pointless roads, on which  Pakistani pacers struggled too, to counter him. He, along with Greg Chappell, missed the tour to Pak in 1982 as he is said to have suffered a knee injury on Aus' tour to NZ. Though he may have memories of Pak preparing pointless roads on the previous tour too.  In 1983, he toured SL (so back in subcon). He retired in 1984 ... On the other hand, a Lillee has served Indian cricket through MRF, helping tons of bowlers.)

Yes I respect Lillee for his contribution to Indian cricket.

 

Those days Aussies and English players used to hate traveling to subcontinent because they used to hate the non-cricketing conditions as well (food, accommodation etc ). Remember when Warne brought his own food when visiting India. That was still the mid 90’s imagine how much worse 70’s and 80’s must be when BCCI was not that rich.

 

However just like a spinner is judged on their performance in SENA, a fast bowler has to be rated on subcontinental performances as well. This is why I respect Mcgrath, Steyn, Walsh, Ambrose etc.

 

Jimmy Anderson too finally started gaining respect only after performing in subcontinent.

 

Also Shami is a modern ATG because Lillee played a total of 133 international games tests + ODIs.

 

Shami has already  played 176* international game + IPL for probably 10+ years and still going strong. 
 

it’s unfair to compare an iPhone to say a old school tring tring phone. That phone might have been equally useful and groundbreaking for that time probably more  . However doesn’t make it as good as an iphone apples to apples.

[zen]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

 

Those days Aussies and English players used to hate traveling to subcontinent because they used to hate the non-cricketing conditions as well (food, accommodation etc ). Remember when Warne brought his own food when visiting India. That was still the mid 90’s imagine how much worse 70’s and 80’s must be when BCCI was not that rich.

 

However just like a spinner is judged on their performance in SENA, a fast bowler has to be rated on subcontinental performances as well. This is why I respect Mcgrath, Steyn, Walsh, Ambrose etc.

Yeah, it was tough to tour subcon in 70s-80s just because of many of the things you mentioned. In the 90s-early 2000s, I used to either travel by planes or cars, and stay in 4-5 star hotels only. At relatively remote places in Rajasthan, even brush (and at times take a bath) with mineral water. 
 

As for me, I wouldn’t judge 70s-80s cricketers based on subcon records. In India, pitches also changed (to rank turners) in 90s and later on. Don Bradman too never toured subcon iirc. 

Lillee is like an example of a great skilled bowler who is also great to watch. May be a Viv Richards of pace bowlers from the PoV of the ability to attract crowds. If Hadlee, Botham, etc., did well in India, I am positive that Lillee would have done well too if he had the opportunity.

 

Pak has been owned many times by Lillee (who even had fights with likes of Miandad) so I am not surprised that it prepared pointless roads (even at the risk of discounting its own pacers) to counter Lillee. And I won’t be surprised if Pak is one that tried to do propaganda against Lillee not coming to subcon (when the reasons could be Kerry Packer, knee injury, etc).
 

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by zen

[zen]

Happy with his performance in the ODI 2023 WC. 

 

FTR, highest wicket-taker with 24 wkts @ 11

 

A titan  

[Sooda]

Overall yes, however he needs more variety that would help on this kind of pitch : slower cutters and the likes.