Enough of allrounder in tests

[AKane]

12 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

So emerging players like Gill are playing IPL but Sundar,NKR are not? Its a poor excuse.

 

As @express bowling told no one except Jaiswal did well for long in terms of specialist bats. So its not just oldies

I mentioned time too.  As far as the oldies go - I have always had a problem with comparing the first few years of someone (say Jaiswal) with the last few years of someone(say Pujara)

 

For example in the first approx 4 years(until June 2014) Pujara averaged 58.xx, in his last 4 years Pujara averaged 31.xx. He ended with a net of 43.xx

 

But we compare his last years with Jaiswal's first years.

Edited December 30, 2024 by AKane

[AKane]

16 minutes ago, Lord said:

So emerging players like Gill are playing IPL but Sundar,NKR are not? Its a poor excuse.

Maybe it is - but playing down the order (where in olden days people used the long handle bats) is different and easier than at the top of the order. More similar to T20.

 

I think it takes a lot of technique to handle the top of the order in test cricket. A lot of patience too - wait for the bad ball.

 

At the bottom of the order it is easier to hit out which the likes of Botham/Kapil/Imran/Hadlee did. They did not play like Gavaskar or Martin Crowe or David Gower navigating the top order.

 

Now maybe Sundar/NKR will be awesome if they bat at the top of the order - but I am not so sure about that.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Yes. It's NKR and Washington who are saving us with the bat. 

 

Both have career batting averages of 49, albeit in short careers.  But one can't fault them so far. 

 

In the last 5 years in tests, apart from Jaiswal, all specialist batters average less than 40  ( Some of them in only a few matches though )

 

Specialist batters ....

 

Jaiswal.    55.x 

 

Sarfraz.    37.x

Shreyas.  36.x 

Rohit.       36.x

Gill.          35.x

 

Rahul.      33.x 

Kohli.        31.x

Mayank.  30.x 

Padikkal. 30.x

 

Pujara.    29.x

Vihari.     26.x

Mayank. 26.x 

Rahane.  25.x

Shaw.      17.x 

Patidar    10.x 

 

 

Keepers and all-rounders ... 

 

Kishan.            78.x

Nitish.              49.x

Washington.  49.x

Pant.                  41.x 

Jurel.                40.x

 

Axar.               35.x

Jadeja.           34.x

 

Saha.              23.x

Ashwin.          21.x 

Bharat.           20.x 

Shardul.          19.x

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=30+Dec+2024;spanmin1=30+Dec+2019;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Some of these players have played very few matches though .. but none have done well so far except Jaiswal.

 

Raises the question that, in tests in the 2020s era, is there any merit in picking even a single specialist Indian batsman after top 3. ( because all-rounders won't be able to play the new ball )  Stats are shocking  !

 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Lone Wolf. @singhvivek141, @rollingstoned, @Lord, @Vijy, @AKane, @Ultimate_Game, @Gollum, @raki05

 

 

What is happening with Indian specialist batsmen in the 2020s ?

 

What is happening with Indian specialist batsmen in the 2020s ?

 

Though a complex topic, in my mind, the core cause is quite simple. In trying to produce pacers - which is good and absolutely needed for SENA - our grassroots emphasis (U16-U19 onward to Ranji/List A/SMAT) had shifted to pacers, with less focus on spinners and batters, unless it was for T20s specifically. The last domestic titans are not given any chances in A tours, and all the emphasis is on selecting flashy-looking T20-style batters like Gill. Sometimes, this approach has yielded potential gems like Reddy, but those are the exception that the norm.

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

I wouldn't pick a specialist just for the sake of it. That being said our problem has been backing oldies for too long. Give other domestic performers like Sai, Rinku, Sarfaraz (the guy has barely played a few matches), Jurel some games and then judge them.

 

But in white-ball cricket, I would make multi-dimensional players a priority. Other than Jaiswal, Bumrah, Varun C and maybe another pacer (Arshdeep or Akash/Harshit), I would have rest of the players who're multi-dimensional - Abhishek, Nitish, Riyan, Rinku, Pandya, Axar etc. Whiteball tourneys are won by multi-dimensional players and batting, depth and we need to make sure we have that.

 

For Tests, the reason we're struggling is that we continue to back the same TTFs forever. Kohli has sucked balls since the last 5+ years and is still there. Rohit was never a Test player, especially away from home and is actually the captain! We continued with Rahane and Pujara too long which cost us a winnable series in SA. BCCi and selectors haven't made the tough calls in a timely fashion and that's why we've struggled.

You have to pick specialists unless the ARs are so good that they merit selection just based on one skill - like Hadlee in bowling or Kallis in batting. otherwise, what happens is classic regression to the mean. Thakur had a batting avg of 30-odd after some tests, but it eventually matched that of his FC avg. Don't be too surprised if this happens to Sundar and NKR - so far they look like genuine talents, but it remains to be seen how much they sustain it. In contrast, Jaiswal being a specialist has kept up a solid body of work over a reasonable period of time

Edited December 30, 2024 by Vijy

[singhvivek141]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

What is happening with Indian specialist batsmen in the 2020s ?

 

It's a very complex question.

Most of the chances were given to the batters based on IPL/List A...selectors mixed the format. These batters bat at top and stat pad on flat pattas or against a 120kph bowling attack like we saw in SMAT/VHT. This impacted their game big time against moving ball as all of them started throwing hands away from the body and hitting through the line. Except Pant, neither of the allrounders are some legend in IPL. Even Pant isn't a very high league batter in IPL, NKR is yet to face the second season blue.

Pitches have become more result oriented over the past few years, which many of our top order batters are finding it difficult to cope with as they are unable to adjust their technique across formats.

Pujara and Rahane declined sharply post Covid, for the former it was age but latter was always a meddling batter who got very good backing courtesy of his initial performance in SENA countries, when we had none.

Mayank and Vihari could have done more....but they were discarded soon. Same is happening with Sarfaraz, the rope for some reason is small for them. All three of them are tailor made for Indian pitches and could be at max serviceable in SENA.

[Vijy]

36 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

It's a very complex question.

Most of the chances were given to the batters based on IPL/List A...selectors mixed the format. These batters bat at top and stat pad on flat pattas or against a 120kph bowling attack like we saw in SMAT/VHT. This impacted their game big time against moving ball as all of them started throwing hands away from the body and hitting through the line. Except Pant, neither of the allrounders are some legend in IPL. Even Pant isn't a very high league batter in IPL, NKR is yet to face the second season blue.

Pitches have become more result oriented over the past few years, which many of our top order batters are finding it difficult to cope with as they are unable to adjust their technique across formats.

Pujara and Rahane declined sharply post Covid, for the former it was age but latter was always a meddling batter who got very good backing courtesy of his initial performance in SENA countries, when we had none.

Mayank and Vihari could have done more....but they were discarded soon. Same is happening with Sarfaraz, the rope for some reason is small for them. All three of them are tailor made for Indian pitches and could be at max serviceable in SENA.

yeah, we have been discarding some legit players too fast.

[rollingstoned]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Yes. It's NKR and Washington who are saving us with the bat. 

 

Both have career batting averages of 49, albeit in short careers.  But one can't fault them so far. 

 

In the last 5 years in tests, apart from Jaiswal, all specialist batters average less than 40  ( Some of them in only a few matches though )

 

Specialist batters ....

 

Jaiswal.    55.x 

 

Sarfraz.    37.x

Shreyas.  36.x 

Rohit.       36.x

Gill.          35.x

 

Rahul.      33.x 

Kohli.        31.x

Mayank.  30.x 

Padikkal. 30.x

 

Pujara.    29.x

Vihari.     26.x

Mayank. 26.x 

Rahane.  25.x

Shaw.      17.x 

Patidar    10.x 

 

 

Keepers and all-rounders ... 

 

Kishan.            78.x

Nitish.              49.x

Washington.  49.x

Pant.                  41.x 

Jurel.                40.x

 

Axar.               35.x

Jadeja.           34.x

 

Saha.              23.x

Ashwin.          21.x 

Bharat.           20.x 

Shardul.          19.x

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=30+Dec+2024;spanmin1=30+Dec+2019;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Some of these players have played very few matches though .. but none have done well so far except Jaiswal.

 

Raises the question that, in tests in the 2020s era, is there any merit in picking even a single specialist Indian batsman after top 3. ( because all-rounders won't be able to play the new ball )  Stats are shocking  !

 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Lone Wolf. @singhvivek141, @rollingstoned, @Lord, @Vijy, @AKane, @Ultimate_Game, @Gollum, @raki05

 

 

What is happening with Indian specialist batsmen in the 2020s ?

 

The ability to build innings has been seemingly lost for one reason or another and this is none more visible than among those who play multiple formats as the ability to leave balls is no longer there. 

In domestic cricket too I feel that in trying to produce more pacers we are producing pitches which reward good length trundling in the corridor which means matches are low scoring and batters are not used to building long innings. 

 

I would also like to see how our team compares to other teams. I feel other than Nzl and maybe Aus our batting avg might be around about where everyone else's is in what seems to be quite a bowling friendly era where avg scores have come down. I don't have exact stats to back this up but it's a feeling I have from watching cricket past decade or so compared to the previous 2 ones. It feels like more teams are trying to compensate for lower batting avgs with more batting depth and tail enders who can also add useful runs. 

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

The ability to build innings has been seemingly lost for one reason or another and this is none more visible than among those who play multiple formats as the ability to leave balls is no longer there. 

In domestic cricket too I feel that in trying to produce more pacers we are producing pitches which reward good length trundling in the corridor which means matches are low scoring and batters are not used to building long innings. 

 

I would also like to see how our team compares to other teams. I feel other than Nzl and maybe Aus our batting avg might be around about where everyone else's is in what seems to be quite a bowling friendly era where avg scores have come down. I don't have exact stats to back this up but it's a feeling I have from watching cricket past decade or so compared to the previous 2 ones. It feels like more teams are trying to compensate for lower batting avgs with more batting depth and tail enders who can also add useful runs. 

we should be separating tests from LOIs to an extent, and have diff players in each. there can still be a few all-format players like bumrah and jaiswal

[rollingstoned]

11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

we should be separating tests from LOIs to an extent, and have diff players in each. there can still be a few all-format players like bumrah and jaiswal

Willl be a hard sell with that sweet ipl money. We will have to accept that Pujara type players will be an exception rather than the norm. And then BCCI itself wants all format players to build out their brands. 

[Trichromatic]

Too much analysis.

 

There is not much wrong with the team.

 

I don't think any other team has so many in form batsmen.

 

Jaiswal - currently best batsman in world

KL Rahul - good opener for SENA

Gill - he has poor record, but has been in form in recent times. Scored 30 odd in each inning at Adelaide and got dropped after 1 failure.

Sarfaraz - Technically weak, but in good form nonetheless.

 

Handy all rounders

Reddy

Sundar

Jadeja

 

Wicketkeepers - both are clutch

Pant - Just having a average series. Otherwise in good form.

Jurel

 

Pacers

Bumrah  - Best in world

Siraj/Rana/Deep - they are 3rd pacer.

 

Weaknesses

1. Lack of 2nd pacer

2. Making keeper bat in first 2 hrs just after keeping for 100 overs.

 

Drop Rohit and Kohli and this team will start beating everyone again.

 

 

[Vijy]

14 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Willl be a hard sell with that sweet ipl money. We will have to accept that Pujara type players will be an exception rather than the norm. And then BCCI itself wants all format players to build out their brands. 

test specialists can be still selected for IPL; all it means is that some of them will not be deemed "good enough" to be selected in ODIs and T20Is.

[The Dark Horse]

Enough of all rounders - Rohit Sharma

 

Just 4 overs bowling to Sundar

1 over to Reddy

[straighttalk]

I think the way the seniors speak is that conditions are very tough and we the most skilled and experience batsmen are facing it and failing..so let's strengthen the batting so that we have depth.

 

Instead of we are out of form..let's pick the best 11. 

[Suhaan]

With pathetic batting we have an equally below par pace bowling

Yes we were lucky enough to have Shami bowling with Bumrah for a fair period but then we also had reasonable quality in third and fourth pacer in Ishant and Umesh

With all of the other three going together we are certainly struggling to full the gap

This is why we were advocating to look after some tall to skiddy pacers with patience

For eg we should have looked after Tyagi,Umran who could have filled the gap in some capacity,left by Ishant and Shami

We should be more tolerant with these kind of pacers as ours take tad more time to mature than others like Ishant or even Umesh

Harshit is getting similar treatment,we are dropping guys out of contention as if we have plethora of options like SA have where they churn out tall 90+mph pacers like pakoras

Coming to batting,there is no doubt buying time and batting sessions after sessions has been lost ,our batsmen like to feel the ball

Rohit and Kohli are two biggest drags,they have that bad influence aura and I'm certain nobody wants them in the dressing room, with them seriously underperforming and dictating terms it might not be going down well with everyone else

Jurel shouldn't have been dropped ,he can surely come as pure batter

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Suhaan

[JaFanatic]

12 hours ago, ungboysj said:

Unless you are a genuine batsman or bowler India should stop playing all rounders and never play more than 1 wk bat  in test cricket

 

I like the old set up of 6 best batsman 4 best bowlers and  wk bat and hope that one of top 6 is a decent bowler for 10 overs

 

If india had pure bats today (and no ro ko) the match would have been drawn

 

Problem is it's impossible to be good in 2 facets and generally people become all rounders as they are not good enough either as a pure bat or pure bowler but it just doesn't work out

 

An all rounder should either be best 4 bowler in country or best 6 bat in country to be in a team and make team purely on one skill and other skill is a bonus like cummins

 

Gambhir has to give up this all rounder fetish

Which "all rounder" are we talking about here? 

[tweaker]

The problem is not of allrounders,but the problem is their utilisation.

 

Sundar and Reddy are in form and are batting better than the seniors. Rohit should have opted for Flexibility in batting order and should have shuffled the batting order.

 

 

[Lord]

14 hours ago, AKane said:

Maybe it is - but playing down the order (where in olden days people used the long handle bats) is different and easier than at the top of the order. More similar to T20.

 

I think it takes a lot of technique to handle the top of the order in test cricket. A lot of patience too - wait for the bad ball.

 

At the bottom of the order it is easier to hit out which the likes of Botham/Kapil/Imran/Hadlee did. They did not play like Gavaskar or Martin Crowe or David Gower navigating the top order.

 

Now maybe Sundar/NKR will be awesome if they bat at the top of the order - but I am not so sure about that.

 

Rohit batted at 6, still failed, so whats the excuse there? As did Rahane in the past

[Nikhil_cric]

Yeah. Weird thing in Indian cricket where we didn't have enough allrounders in white ball cricket where we actually need them 

[singhvivek141]

11 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Yeah. Weird thing in Indian cricket where we didn't have enough allrounders in white ball cricket where we actually need them 

We have serviceable allrounders in white ball as well, problem is with their effective utilization.
Do we have the captains who know how to rotate them ? 
NKR, Hardik, Abhishek, Sundar, Axar, Parag all are allrounders, some are stronger with bat some with ball. Likes of Tilak too can contribute if needed.
 

[Lord]

14 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Yeah. Weird thing in Indian cricket where we didn't have enough allrounders in white ball cricket where we actually need them 

 

nah we have the resources but selectors keep mixing formats.