Enough of allrounder in tests

[ungboysj]

Unless you are a genuine batsman or bowler India should stop playing all rounders and never play more than 1 wk bat  in test cricket

 

I like the old set up of 6 best batsman 4 best bowlers and  wk bat and hope that one of top 6 is a decent bowler for 10 overs

 

If india had pure bats today (and no ro ko) the match would have been drawn

 

Problem is it's impossible to be good in 2 facets and generally people become all rounders as they are not good enough either as a pure bat or pure bowler but it just doesn't work out

 

An all rounder should either be best 4 bowler in country or best 6 bat in country to be in a team and make team purely on one skill and other skill is a bonus like cummins

 

Gambhir has to give up this all rounder fetish

[Ultimate_Game]

We are playing all rounders in Tests to cover for our so called "experienced" batters. If we don't pick all-rounders who'll score runs? We'll barely cross 100. Take out all-rounders (Nitish, Sundar, Jadeja) and all we're left is 2 batters - Jaiswal and an underperforming Pant. We already have 5 no. 11s in the team - Rohit, Kohli and the 3 pacers, and if we take out all-rounders, our tail would start at 4!

 

All-rounders are simply there coz we're trying to fit in 11 players in a 9 man team coz Rohit and Kohli have their spots guaranteed without any performances and we're trying to play bowlers and all-rounders for their batting skills! Ideally these two leeches don't make the squad and we have a team full of deserving and  performing players. We lucked out in BGT 2020-21 that Kohli ran away in that series else even that series would've ended just like this one.

[Vijy]

13 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

We are playing all rounders in Tests to cover for our so called "experienced" batters. If we don't pick all-rounders who'll score runs? We'll barely cross 100. Take out all-rounders (Nitish, Sundar, Jadeja) and all we're left is 2 batters - Jaiswal and an underperforming Pant. We already have 5 no. 11s in the team - Rohit, Kohli and the 3 pacers, and if we take out all-rounders, our tail would start at 4!

 

All-rounders are simply there coz we're trying to fit in 11 players in a 9 man team coz Rohit and Kohli have their spots guaranteed without any performances and we're trying to play bowlers and all-rounders for their batting skills! Ideally these two leeches don't make the squad and we have a team full of deserving and  performing players. We lucked out in BGT 2020-21 that Kohli ran away in that series else even that series would've ended just like this one.

OP is probably saying that we should reduce bits-and-pieces types of ARs after Ro-Ko are gone.

[Ultimate_Game]

19 minutes ago, Vijy said:

OP is probably saying that we should reduce bits-and-pieces types of ARs after Ro-Ko are gone.

 

Don't think they'll go anytime soon. Who knows, they might even want to win WTC before they "retire" 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Don't think they'll go anytime soon. Who knows, they might even want to win WTC before they "retire" 

whenever they go, even if it's 10 yrs from now, we should go with 5 proper batters + keeper at no. 6 or no. 7, not higher + batting AR + bowling AR/bowler who can bat + 3 strike bowlers.

[vvvslaxman]

All rounders in this particular match was for sharing the workload as we have back to back Tests. But Rohit did not use them  for the very purpose they were picked for. He still ran Bumrah to the ground.  They managed to be more than useful even with horrendous utilization of them. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

All rounders in this particular match was for sharing the workload as we have back to back Tests. But Rohit did not use them  for the very purpose they were picked for. He still ran Bumrah to the ground.  They managed to be more than useful even with horrendous utilization of them. 

they were useful with bat mostly than with ball (jadeja did ok with ball though). the issue is that all 3 ARs were closer to batting ARs overseas. needed a proper bowling AR, but we didn't play one because of Ro-Ko deadweights

[Number]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

All rounders in this particular match was for sharing the workload as we have back to back Tests. But Rohit did not use them  for the very purpose they were picked for. He still ran Bumrah to the ground.  They managed to be more than useful even with horrendous utilization of them. 

This is a Rohit Sharma speciality as a captain. In many T20s he would play Axar for bowling depth but will not bowl him more than one over or any over at all in most matches. He likes the cushion of extra bowler but he is not strategically able enough to know and decide when to use them.

 

[Ultimate_Game]

3 minutes ago, Number said:

This is a Rohit Sharma speciality as a captain. In many T20s he would play Axar for bowling depth but will not bowl him more than one over or any over at all in most matches. He likes the cushion of extra bowler but he is not strategically able enough to know and decide when to use them.

 

 

And when he does decide to use someone like Axar, he bowls him to Klassen 

 

That's the IQ level and cricketing acumen of Rohit, the "specialist" captain

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

And when he does decide to use someone like Axar, he bowls him to Klassen 

 

That's the IQ level and cricketing acumen of Rohit, the "specialist" captain

should have bowled himself, would have been even more hilarious

[Lord]

1 hour ago, Ultimate_Game said:

We are playing all rounders in Tests to cover for our so called "experienced" batters. If we don't pick all-rounders who'll score runs? We'll barely cross 100. Take out all-rounders (Nitish, Sundar, Jadeja) and all we're left is 2 batters - Jaiswal and an underperforming Pant. We already have 5 no. 11s in the team - Rohit, Kohli and the 3 pacers, and if we take out all-rounders, our tail would start at 4!

 

All-rounders are simply there coz we're trying to fit in 11 players in a 9 man team coz Rohit and Kohli have their spots guaranteed without any performances and we're trying to play bowlers and all-rounders for their batting skills! Ideally these two leeches don't make the squad and we have a team full of deserving and  performing players. We lucked out in BGT 2020-21 that Kohli ran away in that series else even that series would've ended just like this one.

 

and its the allrounders who are saving us. NKR and Sundar here and Jadeja in Gabba. Talk about cutting the branch you're sitting on

[Lord]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

All rounders in this particular match was for sharing the workload as we have back to back Tests. But Rohit did not use them  for the very purpose they were picked for. He still ran Bumrah to the ground.  They managed to be more than useful even with horrendous utilization of them. 

 

exactly. NKR bowled one over in 2nd innings when Lyon-Boland were knocking it around easily.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

 

and its the allrounders who are saving us. NKR and Sundar here and Jadeja in Gabba. Talk about cutting the branch you're sitting on

 

Yes. It's NKR and Washington who are saving us with the bat. 

 

Both have career batting averages of 49, albeit in short careers.  But one can't fault them so far. 

 

In the last 5 years in tests, apart from Jaiswal, all specialist batters average less than 40  ( Some of them in only a few matches though )

 

Specialist batters ....

 

Jaiswal.    55.x 

 

Sarfraz.    37.x

Shreyas.  36.x 

Rohit.       36.x

Gill.          35.x

 

Rahul.      33.x 

Kohli.        31.x

Mayank.  30.x 

Padikkal. 30.x

 

Pujara.    29.x

Vihari.     26.x

Mayank. 26.x 

Rahane.  25.x

Shaw.      17.x 

Patidar    10.x 

 

 

Keepers and all-rounders ... 

 

Kishan.            78.x

Nitish.              49.x

Washington.  49.x

Pant.                  41.x 

Jurel.                40.x

 

Axar.               35.x

Jadeja.           34.x

 

Saha.              23.x

Ashwin.          21.x 

Bharat.           20.x 

Shardul.          19.x

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=30+Dec+2024;spanmin1=30+Dec+2019;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Some of these players have played very few matches though .. but none have done well so far except Jaiswal.

 

Raises the question that, in tests in the 2020s era, is there any merit in picking even a single specialist Indian batsman after top 3. ( because all-rounders won't be able to play the new ball )  Stats are shocking  !

 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Lone Wolf. @singhvivek141, @rollingstoned, @Lord, @Vijy, @AKane, @Ultimate_Game, @Gollum, @raki05

 

 

What is happening with Indian specialist batsmen in the 2020s ?

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by express bowling

[Lord]

15 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Yes. It's NKR and Washington who are saving us with the bat. 

 

Both have career batting averages of 49, albeit in short careers.  But one can't fault them so far. 

 

In the last 5 years in tests, apart from Jaiswal, all specialist batters average less than 40

 

Specialist batters ....

 

Jaiswal.    55.x 

 

Sarfraz.    37.x

Shreyas.  36.x 

Rohit.       36.x

Gill.          35.x

 

Rahul.      33.x 

Kohli.        31.x

Mayank.  30.x 

Padikkal. 30.x

 

Pujara.    29.x

Vihari.     26.x

Mayank. 26.x 

Rahane.  25.x

Shaw.      17.x 

Patidar    10.x 

 

 

Keepers and all-rounders ... 

 

Kishan.            78.x

Nitish.              49.x

Washington.  49.x

Pant.                  41.x 

Jurel.                40.x

 

Axar.               35.x

Jadeja.           34.x

 

Saha.              23.x

Ashwin.          21.x 

Bharat.           20.x 

Shardul.          19.x

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=30+Dec+2024;spanmin1=30+Dec+2019;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Some of these players have played very few matches though .. but none have done well so far except Jaiswal.

 

Raises the question that, in tests in the 2020s era, is there any merit in picking even a single specialist Indian batsman after top 3. ( because all-rounders won't be able to play the new ball )  Stats are shocking  !

 

 

 

 

not sure about not being able to play new ball too. Sundar is compact and is used to open in domestics.

 

Allrounders have been saving us for years from 100/5 type situations. if they batted higher they might have done better and could have allowed us to play extra pacer

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

15 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Yes. It's NKR and Washington who are saving us with the bat. 

 

Both have career batting averages of 49, albeit in short careers.  But one can't fault them so far. 

 

In the last 5 years in tests, apart from Jaiswal, all specialist batters average less than 40

 

Specialist batters ....

 

Jaiswal.    55.x 

 

Sarfraz.    37.x

Shreyas.  36.x 

Rohit.       36.x

Gill.          35.x

 

Rahul.      33.x 

Kohli.        31.x

Mayank.  30.x 

Padikkal. 30.x

 

Pujara.    29.x

Vihari.     26.x

Mayank. 26.x 

Rahane.  25.x

Shaw.      17.x 

Patidar    10.x 

 

 

Keepers and all-rounders ... 

 

Kishan.            78.x

Nitish.              49.x

Washington.  49.x

Pant.                  41.x 

Jurel.                40.x

 

Axar.               35.x

Jadeja.           34.x

 

Saha.              23.x

Ashwin.          21.x 

Bharat.           20.x 

Shardul.          19.x

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmax1=30+Dec+2024;spanmin1=30+Dec+2019;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Some of these players have played very few matches though .. but none have done well so far except Jaiswal.

 

Raises the question that, in tests in the 2020s era, is there any merit in picking even a single specialist Indian batsman after top 3. ( because all-rounders won't be able to play the new ball )  Stats are shocking  !

 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Lone Wolf. @singhvivek141, @rollingstoned, @Lord, @Vijy, @AKane, @Ultimate_Game, @Gollum, @raki05

 

 

What is happening with Indian specialist batsmen in the 2020s ?

 

 

I wouldn't pick a specialist just for the sake of it. That being said our problem has been backing oldies for too long. Give other domestic performers like Sai, Rinku, Sarfaraz (the guy has barely played a few matches), Jurel some games and then judge them.

 

But in white-ball cricket, I would make multi-dimensional players a priority. Other than Jaiswal, Bumrah, Varun C and maybe another pacer (Arshdeep or Akash/Harshit), I would have rest of the players who're multi-dimensional - Abhishek, Nitish, Riyan, Rinku, Pandya, Axar etc. Whiteball tourneys are won by multi-dimensional players and batting, depth and we need to make sure we have that.

 

For Tests, the reason we're struggling is that we continue to back the same TTFs forever. Kohli has sucked balls since the last 5+ years and is still there. Rohit was never a Test player, especially away from home and is actually the captain! We continued with Rahane and Pujara too long which cost us a winnable series in SA. BCCi and selectors haven't made the tough calls in a timely fashion and that's why we've struggled.

[AKane]

24 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

 

Some of these players have played very few matches though .. but none have done well so far except Jaiswal.

 

Raises the question that, in tests in the 2020s era, is there any merit in picking even a single specialist Indian batsman after top 3. ( because all-rounders won't be able to play the new ball )  Stats are shocking  !

 

 

@Mosher, @Suhaan, @Lone Wolf. @singhvivek141, @rollingstoned, @Lord, @Vijy, @AKane, @Ultimate_Game, @Gollum, @raki05

 

 

What is happening with Indian specialist batsmen in the 2020s ?

 

 

Frankly I don't know....below is all guesswork.

 

Things do change in the world - empires come and go and they go suddenly.

 

If I have to hazard a guess it is a combination of time (Pujara, Rahane, Kohli and Rohit all have gotten over 30 in the last 5 years) - and the 2 months of IPLwhich has screwed with technique and patience of emerging players like Gill.

 

People in the Caribbean wonder the same as you as to how the mighty West Indies of 1970s/80s have been reduced to competing with Bangladesh..... It was a combo of people opting for basketball in US and England putting a quota on players playing in county cricket from abroad among other things. I would have not foreseen this in 1984 at all. But the bowlers stopped appearing after Ambrose and Walsh. Then the batsmen disappeared after Brian Lara.

 

People in Brazil wonder what has happened to their soccer. They are currently ranked 5th in CONMEBOL wc qualifying. It was the result of Brazilian clubs ignoring their own club soccer scene and choosing to "sell" young players to Euro clubs for fat transfer fees. The young players then lose their style, spend a lot of time on bench and..... you get the point.

 

Basically anything can happen and reality is stranger than fiction.

[Lord]

11 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

Frankly I don't know....below is all guesswork.

 

Things do change in the world - empires come and go and they go suddenly.

 

If I have to hazard a guess it is a combination of time (Pujara, Rahane, Kohli and Rohit all have gotten over 30 in the last 5 years) - and the 2 months of IPLwhich has screwed with technique and patience of emerging players like Gill.

 

People in the Caribbean wonder the same as you as to how the mighty West Indies of 1970s/80s have been reduced to competing with Bangladesh..... It was a combo of people opting for basketball in US and England putting a quota on players playing in county cricket from abroad among other things. I would have not foreseen this in 1984 at all. But the bowlers stopped appearing after Ambrose and Walsh. Then the batsmen disappeared after Brian Lara.

 

People in Brazil wonder what has happened to their soccer. They are currently ranked 5th in CONMEBOL wc qualifying. It was the result of Brazilian clubs ignoring their own club soccer scene and choosing to "sell" young players to Euro clubs for fat transfer fees. The young players then lose their style, spend a lot of time on bench and..... you get the point.

 

Basically anything can happen and reality is stranger than fiction.

 

but the question was about our specialist batsmen doing worse than ARs

[Lord]

4 hours ago, ungboysj said:

Unless you are a genuine batsman or bowler India should stop playing all rounders and never play more than 1 wk bat  in test cricket

 

I like the old set up of 6 best batsman 4 best bowlers and  wk bat and hope that one of top 6 is a decent bowler for 10 overs

 

If india had pure bats today (and no ro ko) the match would have been drawn

 

Problem is it's impossible to be good in 2 facets and generally people become all rounders as they are not good enough either as a pure bat or pure bowler but it just doesn't work out

 

An all rounder should either be best 4 bowler in country or best 6 bat in country to be in a team and make team purely on one skill and other skill is a bonus like cummins

 

Gambhir has to give up this all rounder fetish

is that Khota?

 

Which pure bats should have been selected from the squad?

[AKane]

20 minutes ago, Lord said:

but the question was about our specialist batsmen doing worse than ARs

 

32 minutes ago, AKane said:

If I have to hazard a guess it is a combination of time (Pujara, Rahane, Kohli and Rohit all have gotten over 30 in the last 5 years) - and the 2 months of IPLwhich has screwed with technique and patience of emerging players like Gill.

That was the answer to that.

 

Maybe I should have elaborated that the last five years have been the worst for them when the averages of all 4 Pujara, Rahane, Kohli and Rohit have declined from very good to where they are due to them getting old. Taking a snapshot of the last five years which were the worst got this result vs the allrounders.

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by AKane

[Lord]

16 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

That was the answer to that.

 

Maybe I should have elaborated that the last five years have been the worst for them when the averages of all 4 Pujara, Rahane, Kohli and Rohit have declined from very good to where they are due to them getting old. Taking a snapshot of the last five years which were the worst got this result vs the allrounders.

 

 

So emerging players like Gill are playing IPL but Sundar,NKR are not? Its a poor excuse.

 

As @express bowling told no one except Jaiswal did well for long in terms of specialist bats. So its not just oldies