India's over reliance on top 3

[Mosher]

Interesting article on Cricbuzz on India's over dependence on top 3.

 

India's performance in overs 41-50

 

 

Scenario	Inngs	Avg	RPO	Most runs scored b/w 41-50
All of top three dismissed inside 40 ovres	21	24.04	7.06	120 vs Eng, Cuttack, Jan 2017
At least one of top three bats past 40th over	21	26.25	8.47	147 vs SL, Mohali, Dec 2017
At least one of openers/Kohli bats through the inngs	8	45.33	9.35	147 vs SL, Mohali, Dec 2017

 

 

India's batsman in overs 41-50 post WC 2015 (Min 100 runs)

 

 

Player	Runs	Fours	Sixes	SR	Dot%	Balls/Bou	Balls/Dis
Rohit Sharma	227	11	17	197.39	13.91%	4.11	28.75
Stuart Binny	107	12	2	150.70	25.35%	5.07	23.67
Kedar Jadhav	318	32	7	141.33	28.44%	5.77	32.14
Virat Kohli	353	30	11	137.35	27.24%	6.27	28.56
Manish Pandey	194	20	1	125.97	28.57%	7.33	51.33
MS Dhoni	601	50	20	123.66	34.57%	6.94	27.00
Ravindra Jadeja	103	9	1	119.77	32.56%	8.60	17.20
Hardik Pandya	237	18	10	119.10	38.19%	7.11	15.31
Bhuvneshwar Kumar	158	15	3	95.18	45.78%	9.22	33.20

 

http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/100426/stats-analysis-indias-over-reliance-on-top-three

[Vilander]

14 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

Lol @ this idea of 'over-dependence'.

 

If you have 3 batsmen that are good enough to bat for 40 overs on a regular basis, does that mean the team is 'dependent' on them, or does that mean they just play really well?

 

If these 3 batsmen eat up more deliveries on average than the middle/lower order, can the middle/lower order's inconsistent form be called "over-dependence", or is it a lack of consistent opportunity?

 

In a limited overs game, can a #5 or #6 batsman ever score the same number of runs as a top 3 batsman on a consistent basis? When is it more likely that a #5/6 will make a big score, in scenario A) Top order bats 40 overs or scenario B) Top order consistently fails to bat past 20 overs ?

 

Abey, thoda akal lagao chuth'iyon.

 

 

 

 

it is backed up with some failure rates when the top 3 do not do well. 

 

http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/100083/india-cricket-team-batsman-ms-dhonis-recent-struggles-in-chases-highlights-a-grave-conundrum

 

 

[Rasgulla]

20 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

 

Abey, thoda akal lagao chuth'iyon

[Vilander]

1 minute ago, BeardedAladdin said:

No, it isn't. Nothing in that article addresses anything i said.

the main article does. India score more in last 10 overs if one of top three bat, there is even 300+ scores being reached only if one of them bat through, except for that cuttack Yuvi/Dhoni flashback. Its clear when they dont play well the middle and lower middle order struggle to make it past 300.  you need to read through the article instead of jumping the gun.

[Mosher]

41 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

Lol @ this idea of 'over-dependence'.

 

If you have 3 batsmen that are good enough to bat for 40 overs on a regular basis, does that mean the team is 'dependent' on them, or does that mean they just play really well?

 

If these 3 batsmen eat up more deliveries on average than the middle/lower order, can the middle/lower order's inconsistent form be called "over-dependence", or is it a lack of consistent opportunity?

 

In a limited overs game, can a #5 or #6 batsman ever score the same number of runs as a top 3 batsman on a consistent basis? When is it more likely that a #5/6 will make a big score, in scenario A) Top order bats 40 overs or scenario B) Top order consistently fails to bat past 20 overs ?

 

Abey, thoda akal lagao chuth'iyon.

 

 

 

 

India's top 3 have been excellent. But we can't expect them to play through the innings every time. As mentioned in the article when the top 3 batsman get out before the 40th over, the RR drops to 7 in the last 10 overs.  The problem is with the RR and not how many runs they score. That's an area for improvement  in the Indian team.

From the article "170 for 3. 178 for 1. 171 for 2. These were India's scores at the end of the 30th over in the last three ODIs of the South Africa tour, each time batting first. Teams often target to double the score from the 30th over, especially when there are enough number of wickets in hand, and of late the launch point has even shifted to the 35th over. India ended up scoring 303 for 6, 289 for 7 and 274 for 7 respectively, underwhelming on each occasion."

Edited February 16, 2018 by Mosher

[Vilander]

4 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

 

Lol, that's exactly what i was saying, re; the nonsensical idea of characterizing this as 'over-dependence'. India has the best top 3 in the world, that's a fact.

 

Maybe you should actually try reading my posts before you reply to me. Read it carefully next time.

 

 

 

 

dude seriously. Comprehension.

 

If top three bat or one remains around beyond 40 overs India scores x in last 10 and reach 300.

 

If they do not bat India scores (x- something) in last 10 and do not reach 300 except once.

 

What does it show ? top three are heros who make the rest look good, the rest rely on the heros the top three ? correct ?

[Vilander]

25 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Rasgulla seriously ? you clap for some backbencher bakchodi ?

[Mosher]

Surprising to see Pandya's dot ball % being so high.

[speedheat]

Dhoni the great dot % is 34.57 lol, his appetite for dot ball is unconquerable  no wonder has 80 sr batting at num.6 , one more reason to kick him out of the squad for good.

Edited February 16, 2018 by speedheat

[Prateek3801]

This is a serious problem, you know. The fact is that India's only and only weakness is covered to a large extent because the Top 3 has been consistent. If one of them goes out of form, there will be huge pressure on the middle order. This is a problem which cannot be solved in one day, we need some substantial replacements in our XI, If I was a selector, I would have done anything to include Manish Pandey in my XI and give him the no. 4 slot.  He is quite young and can be built upon as a highly reliable no.4 player. 

 

Pant is a fiery player and he could be a great asset in the middle order, he has the ability to attack from ball 1 and that is what you need from a finisher. We require a CONSISTENT batting all-rounder too, Hardik Pandya is highly inconsistent. 

 

Pant can only be included if Dhoni vacates that spot but that won't happen until the 2019 World Cup. I am only left with that No. 5 slot and I believe that it is right now in safe hands. Shreyas Iyer will eventually grow as an international player.

 

If the management can give Suresh Raina such a long rope, then Pandey and Iyer do deserve the same.

[Jimmy Cliff]

26 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Surprising to see Pandya's dot ball % being so high.

And his SR being lower than Dhoni/Jadeja which is the pits. At least his overall SR is damn good.

 

LINK

[rkt.india]

48 minutes ago, Mosher said:

India's top 3 have been excellent. But we can't expect them to play through the innings every time. As mentioned in the article when the top 3 batsman get out before the 40th over, the RR drops to 7 in the last 10 overs.  The problem is with the RR and not how many runs they score. That's an area for improvement  in the Indian team.

From the article "170 for 3. 178 for 1. 171 for 2. These were India's scores at the end of the 30th over in the last three ODIs of the South Africa tour, each time batting first. Teams often target to double the score from the 30th over, especially when there are enough number of wickets in hand, and of late the launch point has even shifted to the 35th over. India ended up scoring 303 for 6, 289 for 7 and 274 for 7 respectively, underwhelming on each occasion."

This is the problem. top 3 usually bat long and others barely get chances to bat and expecting middle order batsmen will just come in start bashing bowlers is highly unrealistic. every batsmen will need some time get going and when they try to hit straight away, they most often than not will fail. This is the reason most of Pandya' good innings have been when he had lot of overs to bat either when promoted or when team collapsed. Same with Dhoni though Dhoni has struggled to hit out these day even when he is set. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by rkt.india

[Vilander]

9 minutes ago, Prateek3801 said:

If the management can give Suresh Raina such a long rope,

like the rope that he lost around 2 years back ?

[rkt.india]

46 minutes ago, Vilander said:

dude seriously. Comprehension.

 

If top three bat or one remains around beyond 40 overs India scores x in last 10 and reach 300.

 

If they do not bat India scores (x- something) in last 10 and do not reach 300 except once.

 

What does it show ? top three are heros who make the rest look good, the rest rely on the heros the top three ? correct ?

no, the thing is top is battign till 40 than they will have to bat whole 50 overs and not get out. you cant expect your top 3 playing 43 overs scoring 240-250 leaving 7 overs for middle order to bat and expect 80-100 runs in 7 overs.  This is a wrong fallacy because it will happen once in a blue moon.  Only set batsmen can score at a high especially with changed fielding restriction in last 10 overs. Every new batsman coming in will eat balls to get set. 

[Vilander]

16 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

no, the thing is top is battign till 40 than they will have to bat whole 50 overs and not get out. you cant expect your top 3 playing 43 overs scoring 240-250 leaving 7 overs for middle order to bat and expect 80-100 runs in 7 overs.  This is a wrong fallacy because it will happen once in a blue moon.  Only set batsmen can score at a high especially with changed fielding restriction in last 10 overs. Every new batsman coming in will eat balls to get set. 

not batting till 40 does not mean they bat till 40 overs exactly, there will be cases within the sample were they fold in 20 or 30 overs. 

[Mosher]

45 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

This is the problem. top 3 usually bat long and others barely get chances to bat and expecting middle order batsmen will just come in start bashing bowlers is highly unrealistic. every batsmen will need some time get going and when they try to hit straight away, they most often than not will fail. This is the reason most of Pandya' good innings have been when he had lot of overs to bat either when promoted or when team collapsed. Same with Dhoni though Dhoni has struggled to hit out these day even when he is set. 

Taking time doesn't mean wasting deliveries. They can play low risk cricket by taking 1's and 2's initially. We need to find players like Raina who used to keep the scoreboard ticking right from ball one and change gears when needed. Not saying Raina will do that job now. 

[Shunya]

First 10 overs - 2 fielders outside circle

20-40 overs - 4 fielders outside circle

40-50 overs - 5 fielders outside circle

 

Obviously we will always be top heavy because everyone who plays well is shifted to top order because scoring opportunities are always higher at top.

How about trying Rohit or Kohli in the middle and let Rahane play at top if it was that easier.

[rkt.india]

30 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Taking time doesn't mean wasting deliveries. They can play low risk cricket by taking 1's and 2's initially. We need to find players like Raina who used to keep the scoreboard ticking right from ball one and change gears when needed. Not saying Raina will do that job now. 

Someone like Raina is an exception.  

[Vk1]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

no, the thing is top is battign till 40 than they will have to bat whole 50 overs and not get out. you cant expect your top 3 playing 43 overs scoring 240-250 leaving 7 overs for middle order to bat and expect 80-100 runs in 7 overs.  This is a wrong fallacy because it will happen once in a blue moon.  Only set batsmen can score at a high especially with changed fielding restriction in last 10 overs. Every new batsman coming in will eat balls to get set. 

Disagree.  Batsman coming at 5 and 6  should have the all-round game to accumulate and go berserk when needed. Consistency is not that critical yardstick for these guys.cpmpared to top order.  You remember a Jadeja going bonkers against Waqar or a klusener because they play those match turning innings. 

Grandehomme, Maxwell, stoinis, stokes are all capable of doing that. Even Hasan Ali is contributing with awesome strikerates for Pak.

[Prateek3801]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

like the rope that he lost around 2 years back ?

Let me elaborate, the rope he got for at least 6-7 years and rightfully lost it 2 years back.