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Duryodhana seems to be the most righteous person among all the Mahabharata characters !!!

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21 minutes ago, Gollum said:

If Bhishma was truly great he should have broken his oath to defend/protect Hastinapur crown and sided with the just party. What he did wasn't sacrifice, had he been an oathbreaker and faced consequences of that action he would have been truly respectworthy in my eyes. IMO he was selfish and for the greater good it is absolutely justified to put personal honour on the backseat even if it results in lowering one's standing/social status or earns one bad karma/curse. 

Forget just party, Bhisma should simply have been  'you know what, my vow was stupid and my dad is dead, the pandavas are not the sons of Pandu anyways, so auto-disqualified to succeed on the throne. Dhritarashtra's sons are a bunch of cun7s, so screw you all, i am taking over the throne. I am trained by the Gods in every art and nobody can beat me in battle'. 


Hastinapur would've had a 'happily ever after' story minus the war and deaths. 

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Such an idiotic comments on god. I thought people are smarter. But I will keep this thread in mind. Shri Krishna and Shri Rama were the greatest incarnations ever until recently

 

Any idea why this thread is not locked yet? wondering what are we waiting for?

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1 hour ago, dial_100 said:

Such an idiotic comments on god. I thought people are smarter. But I will keep this thread in mind. Shri Krishna and Shri Rama were the greatest incarnations ever until recently

 

Any idea why this thread is not locked yet? wondering what are we waiting for?

they were not real, just stories.

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10 hours ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

Can you clarify what you mean something "Similar" in Islam?

 

Dharma here means Righteousness.

Kill kaafirs,people, who dont believe in allah.  Following allah is the righteousness in Islam.

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Kill kaafirs,people, who dont believe in allah.  Following allah is the righteousness in Islam.
Here its not about god. Its normal principles like punishing people who tried to disrobe a women in public or tried to burn people alive in a house or cheated away the property of others. These are crimes in every era under every law. This is not about following a god.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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13 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Forget just party, Bhisma should simply have been  'you know what, my vow was stupid and my dad is dead, the pandavas are not the sons of Pandu anyways, so auto-disqualified to succeed on the throne. Dhritarashtra's sons are a bunch of cun7s, so screw you all, i am taking over the throne. I am trained by the Gods in every art and nobody can beat me in battle'. 


Hastinapur would've had a 'happily ever after' story minus the war and deaths. 

Pandu and Dhritrashtra too were not sons of vichitravirya.They were sons of Ved Vyas.so actually after Chitrangad and Vichtravirya died , the lineage was ended

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Mahabharata and for the matter of fact even Ramayana proves 2 obvious thing,

 

History is told from the winner's perspective and these epics might just be one of the first such instances in ancient history

 

We just don't care or respect our history

 

I believe both Indian epics are romanticized versions of actual events. It is no different from "De di hume azaadi bina khadga bina dal,sabarmati ke sant tu ne kar diya kamaal" - Now is that an accurate reflection of our independence movement?

 

Obviously No. It is a romanticized and exaggerated version that we have heard since childhood.

 

Keeping with the theme of this thread,Mahabharata is a fascinating study because every character has shades of grey as discussed above.It has been a philosophical and a moral guide for Indians for centuries and obviously based on the discussion here it still continues to be.

 

Just a quick look at some fascinating characters

 

Shakuni apparently in the original version of the epic was avenging his family by planning Duryodhana's downfall all along. 

 

Duryodhana himself was supposed to be a noble king,great warrior and an inspiration for true friendship. He was one of the first examples in history where an individual from a higher caste looked beyond social status and did not give importance to caste over merit. However,he was obviously driven by jealousy in a lot of his actions against his cousins. He was arrogant and showed no mercy or humility in victory. We all know about the whole Draupadi saga.

 

On the other hand,Yudishtra was supposed to be a symbol of righteousness but then he had gambling as his vice. He found a loophole to kill Ashwathama. Can we call a person who can succumb to vices or accommodate his principles a symbol of righteousness?

 

We can go on an on and interpret what is known to most of us and pick flaws or point out the greatness of every single character in the Mahabharata.

 

Mahabharata might be centuries ago but one thing has not changed since time immemorial, the way history is told.

 

Hitler is the modern day symbol for all things evil and rightfully so. This is the guy who initiated ethnic cleansing of an entire group of people. Now at the same time lot of modern medicine and technology that is used to this day was developed by Nazi scientists in these concentration camps. Hilter was also the first guy to ban public smoking.  Obviously the evil outweighs whatever scientific breakthrough came out from it. Now had the Central powers won the war, I wonder how these atrocities would be interpreted.

 

Similarly Nuclear race is a thing among every developed or developing nation out there today but the only country to ever use it is the USA. 2 big and  flourishing cities were destroyed. How has the destruction of 2 big cities just become a footnote in history?

 

The Allies are the  heroes and the Central Powers, the villains is the basic theme of the story of World War 2 as we know it today. The story told at the ground level is black and white but obviously you need to dig deep into it to find shades of grey everywhere.

 

Like this  joke I heard once,everyone was an a-hole in world war 2 but we are just glad the better a-holes won. That pretty much sums up what we need to know of modern history.

 

The Mahabharata is no different. There are shades of grey everywhere. The fact that every character has flaws and noble qualities shows this is a representation of real historical characters and not just a made up fictional story.

 

Now to my second point

 

Unfortunately,people get lost  at arguing the validity of flying chariots and the presence of internet in that era. We actually have the greatest philosophical study based on history ever known to mankind at our disposal.There are 100's of interpretations in every language conducted on it by real scholars -not the Kancha Illiah's and Romila Thapars of the world . Why aren't there actual studies being done on what is a very significant piece of our history is beyond me. 

 

On one hand, we can give a pass to liberties taken with history like the story behind Taj Mahal or even from the time of  Alexander's invasion .However when it comes to  Ramayana or the Mahabharata they become fictional and illogical because of some liberties that might have been taken in romanticizing some aspects of the the story or even some aspects getting lost in translation.

 

The problem with Indian history is that it is the re-telling of a collection of events from the perspective of the invaders be it the Mughals or the British . Unfortunately, looks like there haven't been any good ones till now who interpret things from an Indian perspective. To steal a quote from Sanjeev Sanyal, 

 

"Yes there will be some bias in the tone in which the story is told, but it will be our bias and not some foreigners"

 

There is nothing called neutral history and then there is also a danger that History can become revisionist like what I would assume it would be in Pakistan or North Korea.

 

However we need to try and build our own understanding of our ancient history and it is ok if there is some bias in it. 

 

 

I am happy to see such threads on this forum and some good back and forth debate on this subject.

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Speaking of mahabharat characters, Bhishm is my father's name.... When I was in 5th or 6th standard, i had a argument with some kid at school.... He knew my father's name.... And said to me 'O bin byahte ke'.... Coincidently i also knew his father's name which was Shri Mange Ram Khatri... So i replied 'O bhikhari ke'..:D still chuckle thinking of such school memories :D

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On 7/6/2018 at 1:03 AM, rkt.india said:

they were not real, just stories.

For you and I care less. What matters to me is my own business. How about you claim whatever you like for yourself. Or you cannot comprehend the concept of freedom. Oh by the way, they were as real as the sun and moon. 

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4 hours ago, Laaloo said:

Amazing no mention of abhimanyu yet :((

Oh man...made me cry. he was the most righteous,selfless and the bravest of all...Such a pure soul...he was the best!!!

 

Please don't forget about Ghadolkachan,just because he was born to rakshasa caste,he never gets the respect he deserves...he was equally selfless and brave...

Edited by riya

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13 hours ago, dial_100 said:

For you and I care less. What matters to me is my own business. How about you claim whatever you like for yourself. Or you cannot comprehend the concept of freedom. Oh by the way, they were as real as the sun and moon. 

yeah, right. We love mixing history and mythology. They were as real as Odin, Loki and Thor.

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37 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

any timeline when did it happen?

They didnt know how to keep calenders back then ,hastinapur exists and various locations and tribes mentioned are accepted by scholars .If it's down to records then nothing will exist outside properly dated history , your memories and experiences should be overlooked as dodgy anecdotes as you haven't documented them properly.Give it enough time and our existence too will be doubted in spite of all the technology we use to record our existence.

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1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

They didnt know how to keep calenders back then ,hastinapur exists and various locations and tribes mentioned are accepted by scholars .If it's down to records then nothing will exist outside properly dated history , your memories and experiences should be overlooked as dodgy anecdotes as you haven't documented them properly.Give it enough time and our existence too will be doubted in spite of all the technology we use to record our existence.

but isnt it the case similar in literature? Most things and places exist but literature is fiction.

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Yudhishtra never uttered a lie in his life. He said "Ashwatamo Hatah kunjaraha" to Drona! Which means a elephant named Ashwathama has died. But when he said kunjaraha, Krishna blew the conch shell and hid his voice and that's how Krishna engineered the fall of Dronacharya. 

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1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Yudhishtra never uttered a lie in his life. He said "Ashwatamo Hatah kunjaraha" to Drona! Which means a elephant named Ashwathama has died. But when he said kunjaraha, Krishna blew the conch shell and hid his voice and that's how Krishna engineered the fall of Dronacharya. 

:two_thumbs_up: The way Drona Acharya, Bhishma, Karna and others found reasons to take sides with evil, Shri Krishna found ways to to take side of good. 

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On 7/6/2018 at 3:56 PM, coffee_rules said:

Some sorry posts by people  who don't know the philosophy behind the epic, applying present day ethics and movements like pseudo feminism to a time when societies were being formed with Dharmic principles. 

Not at all, we are simply calling out the philosophy of the epics as dated and inferior to the times we live in now. thats all.

 

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21 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

Who says they are inferior? You?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

He thinks we are smarter now than Valmiki because we can drive cars (technological advancements)! So, these neo-thinkers argue that if they can't understand something that medieval or ancient people built (like the cave temples or the pyramids) they must have gotten help from aliens.

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On 7/13/2018 at 7:57 AM, Malcolm Merlyn said:

Who says they are inferior? You?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

Yep. Me. And anyone who has enough sense to not take moral lessons from 'rishis and philosophers' who knew less about phenomenal universe/reality than children in middle school these days. 


In face of technological progress and progress in deciphering the phenomenal universe, its a matter of time before every old philosophy becomes antiquated and inferior. What is cutting edge modernism today,assuming development of tech & discoveries of the universe keep pace, will seem as ignorant nonsense 500 years from now, as the religious texts do now.

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On 7/13/2018 at 8:22 AM, coffee_rules said:

He thinks we are smarter now than Valmiki because we can drive cars (technological advancements)! So, these neo-thinkers argue that if they can't understand something that medieval or ancient people built (like the cave temples or the pyramids) they must have gotten help from aliens.

Species homo sapiens has remained more or less the same for the last 150,000-300,000 years.

So its quite possible that Valmiki or some random dude 3000 years ago was just as smart as a nobel lauriate today.


But what is NOT in question, is that my grade 8 child has more knowledge than Valmiki ever did. Or that every single one of us here who has a degree in technology has greater knowledge than the sum total of Hindu (or ancient Greek/Chinese etc) civilization till pre-modern times.


Do you take life lessons from a jaahil, illierate 'angutha-chaap' ?? Do you let a person who cannot read or write, has never been to school, to correct YOUR viewpoint about the universe ? 

If the answer is no, then the same should apply to the likes of Valmiki or Vyas or Mohammed or any such ancient writer, who's KNOWLEDGE of the universe is less than that of children today. 

Hinduism is not a revealed faith. its a realized one. Its always relied on realizations of its sages, which is basically knowledge applied to spirituality based on knowledge of the universe. And that makes Valmiki, Vyaas and all of them inferior to the average grade 9 child today. Hence, they are not fit to be followed.

 

 

PS: There isnt a modern engineer alive who 'doesnt understand' how the cave temples of Ajanta and Ellora or the pyramids were built. And if you really want to make a point about 'ancient technology', try using one that ACTUALLY awes the engineers the world around- Angkor Wat.

Edited by Muloghonto

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