China Again Blocks Move to List JeM Chief Masood Azhar as Global Terrorist by UN Security Council

[maniac]

12 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Why would I agree to a commie or a gungadeen dictator? Obviously, dictator has got to be of saffron tinge.  

RSS are basically socialist. I'm sure a saffron dictator can pander to the poor double digit IQ hindus just fine. 

Are you deluded? RSS is no different from a rotary or lions club in term of an organization at best . To take over you need to be a different level player  may be not the most flattering  example but  like say the Taliban or some communist guerilla forces in South America.

 

Any way Khayali pulao is always the tastiest dish.

 

This pessimism coming from someone who is a supporter of RSS ideology and manifesto

Edited March 14, 2019 by maniac

[surajmal]

It was meant to be a tongue in cheek comment but you got into tldr bong mode. 

 

So here is why I want a dictator for the next 20 years... Cuz I'm **** scared of AI. And Bharat better get its act together sooner rather than later. Because when the Almighty goes online in the next 50 years ( probably earlier), its gonna start doing some house cleaning. And if the subcontinent (further ravaged by global warming) is still the toilet bowl of the world, even a fecking paperclip maximizing machine is going to find 2 billion people redundant. 

 

All your socio-economic-political theories are about to go for a toss in front of a real GOD. If the worst case scenario is a commie dictator (as long as it is swadeshi), I will take it. At Least we may become a middle income economy before our number is called. 

 

As a mahagyani said, "Democracy is an excuse for the tentative and weak." 

Another thing this mahagyani said, " You are either a doer or a bong". 

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, maniac said:

Are you deluded? RSS is no different from a rotary or lions club in term of an organization at best . To take over you need to be a different level player  may be not the most flattering  example but  like say the Taliban or some communist guerilla forces in South America.

 

Any way Khayali pulao is always the tastiest dish.

 

This pessimism coming from someone who is a supporter of RSS ideology and manifesto

He is confused between a socialist and a fascist.

RSS ultras are fascists, not socialists. Fascism = protection of national/local industries, nationalism and using nationalism to boost profits of the protected industries ( by citing nationalism as a reason for stagnant wages/pay-cuts etc). Socialists = nobody owns anything, the people/nation own everything. RSS by definition are more fascism leaning than socialism leaning.

 

[surajmal]

15 minutes ago, maniac said:

Are you deluded? RSS is no different from a rotary or lions club in term of an organization at best . To take over you need to be a different level player  may be not the most flattering  example but  like say the Taliban or some communist guerilla forces in South America.

 

Any way Khayali pulao is always the tastiest dish.

 

This pessimism coming from someone who is a supporter of RSS ideology and manifesto

I didn't say RSS is ready now. But MP elections prove that Indian electorate can't be trusted to think for themselves. Dictatorship is only rational. 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

He is confused between a socialist and a fascist.

RSS ultras are fascists, not socialists. Fascism = protection of national/local industries, nationalism and using nationalism to boost profits of the protected industries ( by citing nationalism as a reason for stagnant wages/pay-cuts etc). Socialists = nobody owns anything, the people/nation own everything. RSS by definition are more fascism leaning than socialism leaning.

 

RSS is at best a  desi version of the YMCA  in theory that’s about it.

 

Apart from issuing a manifesto that talks about nationalism, RSS has never done anything that fits your definition of fascism.

 

You are probably confusing them with Bajrang Dal etc who are seperate entities and they get more attention than they deserve.

 

 I hope RSS becomes the force and power people assume it to be though.

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, surajmal said:

I didn't say RSS is ready now. But MP elections prove that Indian electorate can't be trusted to think for themselves. Dictatorship is only rational. 

Firstly a shrewd politician can have his way in a democracy. Abraham Lincoln got his way and abolished salvery of all things that lot of people were not in agreement of. Infact Lincoln himself didn’t do it for a humanitarian cause. He did it for political purposes.

 

Bush went for a pointless Iraq war for personal reasons playing within the system even though he had a lot of opposition he got the vote.

 

Maybe dictatorship might have worked for us in 1947 but in 2019 it will be recipe for disaster. Won’t work in a multi-cultural society like India especially when we are this far along with the mess our regional political systems have become.

 

 

[surajmal]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

Firstly a shrewd politician can have his way in a democracy. Abraham Lincoln got his way and abolished salvery of all things that lot of people were not in agreement of. Infact Lincoln himself didn’t do it for a humanitarian cause. He did it for political purposes.

 

Bush went for a pointless Iraq war for personal reasons playing within the system even though he had a lot of opposition he got the vote.

 

Maybe dictatorship might have worked for us in 1947 but in 2019 it will be recipe for disaster. Won’t work in a multi-cultural society like India especially when we are this far along with the mess our regional political systems have become.

 

 

American population under lincoln - ~ 30 million. 

China has proven that billion+ can be put under the hammer. Time to take a page from their book. 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, surajmal said:

American population under lincoln - ~ 30 million. 

China has proven that billion+ can be put under the hammer. Time to take a page from their book. 

Yes and its been better for 95% of Chinese people, eh ?

Typical desh-dhrohi talk from you to progress your own cause.

 

[R!TTER]

9 hours ago, Gollum said:

Expected, we have to continue this fight ourselves. To the economists and geostrategy experts on ICF, any way we can get back at China without harming ourselves more? 

Move production to India, use Indian companies & forget this sham called "Make in India" for Chinese sh!t that exploits the tax benefits only to screw us more!

[beetle]

4 hours ago, surajmal said:

I didn't say RSS is ready now. But MP elections prove that Indian electorate can't be trusted to think for themselves. Dictatorship is only rational. 

Yeah...either vote for us or we will rule you with danda.

Sick !

This is the reason people need to vote out govts( parties) from time to time. So they don't think they have a natural right to govern.

Edited March 14, 2019 by beetle

[chewy]

Out of curiusity, what changes happens if Massood is on official UN terror list?

Will it invite sanctions if he is not arrested?

 

 

[R!TTER]

It's mostly symbolic, but it does tell you that China is an enemy state. I have no idea why we bash Pak so much when China is arguably much worse especially given their history with Maoists!

[Clarke]

22 minutes ago, chewy said:

Out of curiusity, what changes happens if Massood is on official UN terror list?

Will it invite sanctions if he is not arrested?

 

 

Same thing as Hafiz Saeed & JuD/LeT. It doesn't matter until FATA blacklists pakistan to begin with. 

[Laaloo]

https://www.thehindu.com/2004/01/10/stories/2004011004021200.htm

 

 

 

[Tibarn]

My opinion on derailed topics of the thread

Spoiler

A form of government in and of itself isn't an accomplishment. That so many of us have been brainwashed into thinking that "Democracy" is, in and of itself, is an accomplishment, is an example of the power of indoctrination through the education system. The central government, with few actual tangible accomplishments over the 70+ years of Independence has sold us that Democracy is such a boon on humanity and the Indian populace that people without roads, electricity, toilets, hospitals, water, food, etc should be thankful anyway.  

 

Democracy, which we aren't by the way, we are a Democratic Republic,  should, like any form of government, be praised or criticized on the basis of the actual goals of a society/nation. The same goes for any type of government one can think of.

 

Neither is there much compelling evidence that Indians actually care about Democracy much anyway. People regularly elect/support dynasties, many of whom have done very little for the betterment of the people who voted for them/the states they govern/the nation as a whole. People also support the erosion of Democracy, largely by the mechanisms of Judicial Overreach and the ever-growing Babudom("Deep State"), so long as these institutions do what these interested people want. Translation: democracy for when it gives me what I want, but I will coerce the populace and subvert Democracy, when it doesn't agree with me.  

 

There isn't much compelling evidence that any form of government is in particular a panacea, ie adopt X form of government and then your country suddenly becomes a Superpower/Economic Power/ Military Power or whatever "power." The correct policies are much more likely, IMO, to be what actually drives success, not giving XYZ a vote or making ABC the emperor for life! 

 

It is much more likely, IMO, that all forms of government have their merits and demerits and that each country should fluidly adopt whichever form of government best leads to the desired result, IMO that is becoming a "Superpower".  

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The case of Abraham Lincoln actually goes against the concept of Democracy producing great leaders. Abe was elected in 1960, with <40% of the popular vote in the election, in a quadrilateral election, so he wasn't universally popular at the time of his election, and some credit his very election, including some of his positions on issues, as being the "straw that broke the camel'l back" for the secession of "The South." 

 

Abe is remembered as arguably the greatest US president, because he won the Civil War and the US retained its territory. However, during the time of the war, he did things which would be described as "dictatorial", the most prominent of which was the suspension of Habeas Corpus. He had the power to jail people arbitrarily during the war, in direct violation of the US constitution and people's conception of fundamental rights!

 

Add to that, the population of the US at the time was ~31 million, of which, of which less than 5 million voted for president! Abe was elected basically by only ~6 percent of the population of the US!  Old Abe is more of an example of the power of a restricted electorate, which most people in modern times, of the group which would be willing to fall on the sword of Democracy, would find unpalatable. 

 

This is similar to most/if not all of the great US presidents, those who came immediately after their War of Independence. They were all elected by a small fraction of their population, and many of them ended up being some of the most brilliant/visionary/competent leaders to ever govern a country, especially a new one. People like JQA or Thomas Jefferson. Even their tier of leaders who didn't get elected as president, ie Franklin or Hamilton, were far more intelligent than the likes of our clowns who are sold as "great" or "intellectual" like Nehru, Ambedkar et al.  There is a reason that the US became the largest economy in the world hardly 100 years after Independence, while we are left scraping the bottom of the barrel for accomplishments like IITs or Bollywood. After 70+ years we finally have almost 100% village electrification or 70+% toilet coverage.  

 

That illustrates it is more who is the leader(s) and what are their policies rather than Democracy, in and of itself, being the key impetus for the success of a nation. I say this as a disillusioned fan of democracy   

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RSS has the manpower, but not the ideology to become a dictatorship. Pretty much all of their senior leadership are obsessed with democracy. One can look up Vajpayee or even Modi's speeches on the topic. There is one where Modi starts choking-up talking about how he would prefer Democracy over even food! They were also at the forefront of rebelling against would-be dictator Indira. Not that their "rebellion" was the reason for the failure of The Emergency. Indira would have actually become a dictator if the army was so inclined as to support her. The army didn't so she couldn't become one.

 

Even in the famous GE of 1977, which was supposedly a slap in the face of her tyranny, she got ~40% vote-share and ~190 LS seats. Look at the map yourselves.

What is funny is that many of the "backwards", "ganwar" states were the ones who supposedly "saved Democracy." Also note, Indira lost less than 3 % of her vote-share from before the Emergency.  Her loss was more along the lines of others ganging up to defeat her, rather than her losing popularity. 

 

On topic:

 

China has no reason to label Azhar as a terrorist. He and Bakistan are assets for them. The US and whatever other countries people want to support India's stand, can't do anything. The UN is now and has always been a farcical organization.

 

Although I agree with @SinghBling, India should show some spine and do something, even if they don't want to go that far. Suspend any monetary and military contribution we give to the UN. We are paying in Rupees and Blood to basically serve an organization where 5 countries have some undeserved final say on any key action. 

 

A big boost for Make in India would be duties or even banning Chinese products, so long as we take advantage of it.   

 

We can't really use Uighurs, I don't think, as the Chinese will turn them into Dog food  and then eat them at the Yulin Dog Festival 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Tibarn

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, Tibarn said:

My opinion on derailed topics of the thread

  Hide contents

 

<snipped because i am not countering a specific point but overall point>

It is all fine and dandy to say that the governments should be appraised based on the objective goals of the society. However, you should read late 19th century and early 20th century pro-democratic literature from Europe regarding WHY democracy is preferrable to dictatorships.

I know you have a reflexive bias against Europeans and tend to throw everything those humans do in the trash or minimize their accomplishments, but bear with me here - the main focus was the fact that democracy neuters the government from doing severe harm or something incredibly rash. The main casualty of it, is that it also hobbles the government from doing a lot of productive good. 
Given human history and burden of evidence, we have seen over and over and over again - from India to China to Arabia to Europe- everywhere - that 90% of people in power prefer to screw the weak and helpless of their society and 10% are actually the 'enlightened, civil servants who want betterment of entire society'. 

 

Even in our history, dictatorships have yeilded extremely silly wars and loss of life - Cholas and Chalukyas fought several of their wars solely on the premise of ' the @sshole king divorced his Chola princess wife/ set aside his son from the Chalukya princess for succession' etc. We all know the Aaluddin Khilji and Padmavati. 

Now compare it with wars waged by the Greek city states that were democratic or the janapadas that were democratic - hardly any such instances.

 

And this is why democracy is the best way forward - most people are @ssholes. they are in it for themselves and they will happily slit the throat of another for personal profit if they can get away with it. Democracy is a system that mitigates the negatives of humans rulership at the expense of also neutering the positives. Given that dictatorships have a losing track record by a landslide in the 'maniac vs rational' divide, its the best system FOR a society. 

4 hours ago, Tibarn said:

On topic:

 

China has no reason to label Azhar as a terrorist. He and Bakistan are assets for them. The US and whatever other countries people want to support India's stand, can't do anything. The UN is now and has always been a farcical organization.

UN is only good for PR and getting populist support. It gives a certain 'window of opportunity' in a world-wide frame to do something drastic and get away with it. 

4 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Although I agree with @SinghBling, India should show some spine and do something, even if they don't want to go that far. Suspend any monetary and military contribution we give to the UN. We are paying in Rupees and Blood to basically serve an organization where 5 countries have some undeserved final say on any key action. 

No, i think India should persist. We are a rising power and over this century, at worst, we will the third ranked country in terms of force of weight ( most likely behind China and maybe still behind USA). As such, Indian involvement WHILE India grows stronger, provided we maintain a consistent stance towards our objectives in the UN and the reforms we want, can either lead to its reform or its fracturing akin to League of Nations fracturing. 

Right now, leaving or withdrawing gains us nothing but loses a lot of topical support and diplomatic leverage. 

4 hours ago, Tibarn said:

A big boost for Make in India would be duties or even banning Chinese products, so long as we take advantage of it.   

Can't do that. China will successfully sue our ar$es off in the WTO and EU will side with them, because at the end of the day, fair trade is their mantra and in turn, that will screw us ( as they are our biggest export partner). 

A non-official 'boycott China' campaign via social media and exerting populist rejection of Chinese made goods will be far more productive - it lets India off the hook in official/diplomatic/international trade forums ( look, what can WE do if our people won't buy the goods ? can't blame businesses for not importing Chinese products, if Chinese products are not moving off the shelf!) and also signal a far bigger 'actual power' to China in return.

Ultimately, China is a nation that preens too much because they like to avoid confrontation. Its the classic 'don't call my bluff' strategy of over-betting : we saw this in Doklam. As such, Chinese are concerned with the $$ and as soon as an Indian govt. can signal China that we have the power to influence our public to a level that makes a big $$ difference to China, they will back down from supporting the Bakis - we still earn them way, way more $$ than the Bakis do.

4 hours ago, Tibarn said:

We can't really use Uighurs, I don't think, as the Chinese will turn them into Dog food  and then eat them at the Yulin Dog Festival 

Yep. 100% true. 

[Muloghonto]

In short, we have to ditch the 'one glove fits all' strategy of our international policy. 

The Congressi mantra of 'lets make everyone richer and more trade-connected, because if we are all connected, we all have equal stakes in stability' is a CLEAR failure regarding Pakistan - history has proven to us that a richer Pakistan is more of a menace than a poorer Pakistan, regardless of how well/not well they are connected to us. 

Similarly the BJP mantra of ' its our right, this is the correct action re: terrorists' is also a failure, albeit less clear, largely due to the 'optics' of opposing such a stance. But look closer and you will see that several countries ( China, to a lesser extent USA, etc) don't really care.

We have to have a 'horses for the courses' strategy. 

Realise what each player wants and cater to that want, to maximize our results.

Pakistan for eg, will only listen to being utterly destituted and potentially, broken up. 

China on the other hand, pays keen attention to its pocketbook : become more integrated with their economy ( without becoming their slaves) is the best way to exert influence on Chinese diplomatic policy.

 

USA cares most about being perceived as the world hegemon and symbolic gestures of 'we listen to our big bro USA' works wonders with the US government & media. Look at Israel - they do the 'we lick US boots' routine on a day to day basis over nothing important. But the moment they wanna do something big for them in Gaza/Palestine, they don't give a toss about US and US is placated with the whole ' we lick your boots 360 days a year, so give us these 5 days where its REALLY important to us'. 

 

EU on the other hand, cares most about being 'listened to' about human rights and lack of trade barriers.

 

Australia - they are just a more honest and simpler Canada - buy their raw minerals in zillion tonnes per annum quota and they will happily go along with whatever you do. 

 

India needs a multi-faceted strategy for each and every player, instead of using tired cliches from the MEA. 

[Stradlater]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

In short, we have to ditch the 'one glove fits all' strategy of our international policy. 

The Congressi mantra of 'lets make everyone richer and more trade-connected, because if we are all connected, we all have equal stakes in stability' is a CLEAR failure regarding Pakistan - history has proven to us that a richer Pakistan is more of a menace than a poorer Pakistan, regardless of how well/not well they are connected to us. 

Similarly the BJP mantra of ' its our right, this is the correct action re: terrorists' is also a failure, albeit less clear, largely due to the 'optics' of opposing such a stance. But look closer and you will see that several countries ( China, to a lesser extent USA, etc) don't really care.

We have to have a 'horses for the courses' strategy. 

Realise what each player wants and cater to that want, to maximize our results.

Pakistan for eg, will only listen to being utterly destituted and potentially, broken up. 

China on the other hand, pays keen attention to its pocketbook : become more integrated with their economy ( without becoming their slaves) is the best way to exert influence on Chinese diplomatic policy.

 

USA cares most about being perceived as the world hegemon and symbolic gestures of 'we listen to our big bro USA' works wonders with the US government & media. Look at Israel - they do the 'we lick US boots' routine on a day to day basis over nothing important. But the moment they wanna do something big for them in Gaza/Palestine, they don't give a toss about US and US is placated with the whole ' we lick your boots 360 days a year, so give us these 5 days where its REALLY important to us'. 

 

EU on the other hand, cares most about being 'listened to' about human rights and lack of trade barriers.

 

Australia - they are just a more honest and simpler Canada - buy their raw minerals in zillion tonnes per annum quota and they will happily go along with whatever you do. 

 

India needs a multi-faceted strategy for each and every player, instead of using tired cliches from the MEA. 

 

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

It is all fine and dandy to say that the governments should be appraised based on the objective goals of the society. However, you should read late 19th century and early 20th century pro-democratic literature from Europe regarding WHY democracy is preferrable to dictatorships.

I know you have a reflexive bias against Europeans and tend to throw everything those humans do in the trash or minimize their accomplishments, but bear with me here - the main focus was the fact that democracy neuters the government from doing severe harm or something incredibly rash. The main casualty of it, is that it also hobbles the government from doing a lot of productive good. 
Given human history and burden of evidence, we have seen over and over and over again - from India to China to Arabia to Europe- everywhere - that 90% of people in power prefer to screw the weak and helpless of their society and 10% are actually the 'enlightened, civil servants who want betterment of entire society'. 

 

Even in our history, dictatorships have yeilded extremely silly wars and loss of life - Cholas and Chalukyas fought several of their wars solely on the premise of ' the @sshole king divorced his Chola princess wife/ set aside his son from the Chalukya princess for succession' etc. We all know the Aaluddin Khilji and Padmavati. 

Now compare it with wars waged by the Greek city states that were democratic or the janapadas that were democratic - hardly any such instances.

 

And this is why democracy is the best way forward - most people are @ssholes. they are in it for themselves and they will happily slit the throat of another for personal profit if they can get away with it. Democracy is a system that mitigates the negatives of humans rulership at the expense of also neutering the positives. Given that dictatorships have a losing track record by a landslide in the 'maniac vs rational' divide, its the best system FOR a society. 

UN is only good for PR and getting populist support. It gives a certain 'window of opportunity' in a world-wide frame to do something drastic and get away with it. 

No, i think India should persist. We are a rising power and over this century, at worst, we will the third ranked country in terms of force of weight ( most likely behind China and maybe still behind USA). As such, Indian involvement WHILE India grows stronger, provided we maintain a consistent stance towards our objectives in the UN and the reforms we want, can either lead to its reform or its fracturing akin to League of Nations fracturing. 

Right now, leaving or withdrawing gains us nothing but loses a lot of topical support and diplomatic leverage. 

Can't do that. China will successfully sue our ar$es off in the WTO and EU will side with them, because at the end of the day, fair trade is their mantra and in turn, that will screw us ( as they are our biggest export partner). 

A non-official 'boycott China' campaign via social media and exerting populist rejection of Chinese made goods will be far more productive - it lets India off the hook in official/diplomatic/international trade forums ( look, what can WE do if our people won't buy the goods ? can't blame businesses for not importing Chinese products, if Chinese products are not moving off the shelf!) and also signal a far bigger 'actual power' to China in return.

Ultimately, China is a nation that preens too much because they like to avoid confrontation. Its the classic 'don't call my bluff' strategy of over-betting : we saw this in Doklam. As such, Chinese are concerned with the $$ and as soon as an Indian govt. can signal China that we have the power to influence our public to a level that makes a big $$ difference to China, they will back down from supporting the Bakis - we still earn them way, way more $$ than the Bakis do.

Yep. 100% true. 

For once I agree with you.

[R!TTER]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Can't do that. China will successfully sue our ar$es off in the WTO and EU will side with them, because at the end of the day, fair trade is their mantra and in turn, that will screw us ( as they are our biggest export partner). 

Successfully sue us how? Most of the essential patents in the tech industry are held by US, Japan, SK & European firms while Huawei, ZTE only have a handful of telecom patents. In other industries as well US & EU lead the charts, so why would EU side with China anyway - since China has already screwed much of West by stealing their tech like Maglev 

[Muloghonto]

11 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Successfully sue us how? Most of the essential patents in the tech industry are held by US, Japan, SK & European firms while Huawei, ZTE only have a handful of telecom patents. In other industries as well US & EU lead the charts, so why would EU side with China anyway - since China has already screwed much of West by stealing their tech like Maglev 

I am not talking about Huwawei or any particular company. Most Chinese goods in the Indian market are cheap consumables - like patakaas, clothing, cookwares, toys etc. We can't just up and ban them when we are signatories to the WTO and Free Trade regulations. 

Governments trying to do so have been successfully sued in the world court systems and whether they've averted the lawsuit or succumbed to it, it still cost them millions to do so. Those millions are much better spent in creating a 'people blackballing wave'.