"Contradiction" is what knocked us out

[Cricketics]

Our team did finish on top of the table and were playing brilliant cricket in the league stage and hence we finished ahead of England and Australia at league stage. However, all of a sudden we got knocked out and what really I felt went wrong was not just because we picked the oldies - they were there before too in league stage. It was Kohli and management contradicting themselves at the crucial stage. 

 

Here is the thing. You pick Dhoni for the World Cup. A senior player whom you want to be there because of experience. Okay, many don't agree, but fine you have picked him. Now in the biggest stage of the World Cup, when we are chasing in semi finals under tough conditions, whom do you send? Pant and Pandya, ahead of Dhoni.

 

We already know Dhoni has been batting slow, but has been picked to play anchor role under pressure, and now you are trying to make it sound "Attack is the best form of defense" by sending Pandya and Pant ahead. Okay, that is fine too, but then why would you pick Dhoni in the team then?

 

Dhoni had to be sent earlier in such situation and should have batted with either Pandya or Pant, instead of putting pressure on both the young guys, who still tried their best and formed a p'ship but eventually threw it away under pressure. A senior should have actually batted with them to not let this happen.

 

We were bit unlucky with the game going into two days, but our captain and management made these contradictory moves, which just don't add up.

 

They took senior in the team to help them in tough situations, but they never really used him in that situation. 

 

Kohli is a brilliant test captain, but in ODI'S he's contradicting himself by being either too attacking, or too conservative and in between that, it will hurt India, it has already hurt us.  It's time to move on from him in LOI Cricket. 

 

 

 

[maniac]

Kohli has some refreshing ideas in tests no doubt like inducting  fast bowlers but we need to remember that the only feather in his cap is the Aussie series. Despite having the best bowling attack in Indian history and some opponents like SA and Aus being at their lowest he still messed up due to his team selections.

 

Picking Dhawan and some other person :) in tests, dropping Rahane and Pujara, dropping Bhuvi etc etc. His team selections screwed up even then. Unfortunately for him the damage in bilaterals is not as bad as in a knock out like scenario in a World Cup because of the recovery time. 

 

Also SA was a 3 match series it was too late before he realized.

 

Aus was a 5 match series and ended up winning 2-1 because he got his captaincy in the later part of the series spot on.

 

We saw in the IPL too he picks management guys and seniors he loves like Shastri and Nehra etc and Dhoni, ABDV and then is over dependent on them. 

[Cricketics]

24 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

We saw in the IPL too he picks management guys and seniors he loves like Shastri and Nehra etc and Dhoni, ABDV and then is over dependent on them. 

Again, point is not whom you love. Every captain pick's his players which he likes and thats how he makes it into champion team. Point is you got to back those guys then for the situations you have picked them for.

 

If he has picked Pandya/Pant for attack, then good on him, but it doesn't make sense for Dhoni to come below them in a game which could knock us out of the World Cup. That is what exactly happened, we got knocked out because no one was there to play Gambhir-like innings in the middle under pressure. Had Dhoni been sent at 4 and made to bat with Pant or Pandya, we would have been better off or that he shouldn't have been picked in the team at all then. I won;'t even blame Dhoni here, its all Kohli-Shastri here for having poor strategy to put two youngsters in a crunch situation, who still ended up giving their best with 30 odd each, just that one of them had to be guided to stay for longer period. 

[shami_123]

Agreed bro, SL won series in SA. Massive missed opportunity due to shoddy selection of Dhawan and Rohit. Sometimes I feel that the friendship of Anushka and other wags and their partying out together has some influence on selection policy, although I might be reaching a lot here...

 

Quoting maniac

Edited July 12, 2019 by shami_123

[sandeep]

29 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

We already know Dhoni has been batting slow, but has been picked to play anchor role under pressure, and now you are trying to make it sound "Attack is the best form of defense" by sending Pandya and Pant ahead. Okay, that is fine too, but then why would you pick Dhoni in the team then?

 

Dhoni had to be sent earlier in such situation and should have batted with either Pandya or Pant, instead of putting pressure on both the young guys, who still tried their best and formed a p'ship but eventually threw it away under pressure. A senior should have actually batted with them to not let this happen.

Or maybe, the thinking was that by holding Dhoni back, you push the kiwis into saving some overs of their best bowlers instead of going all out attack, thereby creating a window of opportunity for the younger players to bat earlier in the game, with less pressure than the end.  All we needed was one of Karthik/Pant/Pandya to bat well.  Unfortunately for Team India,  we went 0 for 3 in this.  If one of those guys had "pulled a Jadeja" or even half of that, they would have broken the game open quite early, and it would have turned into a downhill chase.

 

Karthik's shot selection was horrible after his 0(20).  He had no business hitting the ball in the air like that.  Pant and Pandya fell attempting the big shot against the spinner - bit of risk there, but both of them have good degrees of success doing just that.  

 

Its small margins.  It just wasn't meant to be.  

[Cricketics]

19 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Or maybe, the thinking was that by holding Dhoni back, you push the kiwis into saving some overs of their best bowlers instead of going all out attack, thereby creating a window of opportunity for the younger players to bat earlier in the game, with less pressure than the end.  All we needed was one of Karthik/Pant/Pandya to bat well.  Unfortunately for Team India,  we went 0 for 3 in this.  If one of those guys had "pulled a Jadeja" or even half of that, they would have broken the game open quite early, and it would have turned into a downhill chase.

 

Karthik's shot selection was horrible after his 0(20).  He had no business hitting the ball in the air like that.  Pant and Pandya fell attempting the big shot against the spinner - bit of risk there, but both of them have good degrees of success doing just that.  

 

Its small margins.  It just wasn't meant to be.  

Yeah, it just wasn't our day. I even hate to blame players like Karthik, since they weren't given proper run. Again a player who was picked solely for finishing role from what I remember

 

3 down early really caught us off guard, This game reminded me of our game against Australia in 1999 Super six stage, where we lost early wickets of Ganguly, Tendulkar etc. Big stage that too as it was must win, but we lost that and were knocked out, even though we had few more super six games left. 

 

But whatever it is, Kohli is better off giving away ODI captaincy and just bat with freedom at. no.3 till. next World Cup. 

[maniac]

7 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Yeah, it just wasn't our day. I even hate to blame players like Karthik, since they weren't given proper run. Again a player who was picked solely for finishing role from what I remember

 

3 down early really caught us off guard, This game reminded me of our game against Australia in 1999 Super six stage, where we lost early wickets of Ganguly, Tendulkar etc. Big stage that too as it was must win, but we lost that and were knocked out, even though we had few more super six games left. 

That's an easy way out. Aus in 2003-2007 or WI 1975-1979 never had an off day because guess what they had no such issues. The WI defeat in 83 wasn't an off day, India had to play out of their skins.

 

Similarly here Nzl did play out of their skins but at the same time we had these weakness symptoms for a while.

 

I still think Jadeja's knock is a 100% fluke. in a 10 year career with all the backing,how many innings like this has he played? He just connected today that's it. This middle order problem of India was a ticking time bomb and yes Captain and management get the blame for it.

 

Let's not sugar coat this. We all pay hard earned $$$ sitting far away in other countries, in India too now they charge an arm and a leg for broadcast which makes these mofos the highest paid athletes in the world especially Kohli,Dhoni etc. They are accountable. if you are happy and content with this mediocre performance, good for you.

Edited July 12, 2019 by maniac

[Cricketics]

3 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

I still think Jadeja's knock is a 100% fluke. in a 10 year career with all the backing,how many innings like this has he played? He just connected today that's it. This middle order problem of India was a ticking time bomb and yes Captain and management get the blame for it.

 

 I don't think its fluke. He played an attacking game. That is what suits him and that is how he get runs even in test cricket with the bat, if you saw some of his knocks recently in test cricket where he got runs while attacking. 

 

[diehardpacer]

Had Dhoni played at 4,he would have played 40-50 ball 15 run innings & all 3 of Pant,Pandya & Jadeja would have gone out due to not getting strike.

Pant & Pandya were playing well to recover but their over defensiveness towards Santner got both of them out.

Edited July 12, 2019 by diehardpacer

[Insidious]

1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

Our team did finish on top of the table and were playing brilliant cricket in the league stage and hence we finished ahead of England and Australia at league stage. However, all of a sudden we got knocked out and what really I felt went wrong was not just because we picked the oldies - they were there before too in league stage. It was Kohli and management contradicting themselves at the crucial stage. 

 

Here is the thing. You pick Dhoni for the World Cup. A senior player whom you want to be there because of experience. Okay, many don't agree, but fine you have picked him. Now in the biggest stage of the World Cup, when we are chasing in semi finals under tough conditions, whom do you send? Pant and Pandya, ahead of Dhoni.

 

We already know Dhoni has been batting slow, but has been picked to play anchor role under pressure, and now you are trying to make it sound "Attack is the best form of defense" by sending Pandya and Pant ahead. Okay, that is fine too, but then why would you pick Dhoni in the team then?

 

Dhoni had to be sent earlier in such situation and should have batted with either Pandya or Pant, instead of putting pressure on both the young guys, who still tried their best and formed a p'ship but eventually threw it away under pressure. A senior should have actually batted with them to not let this happen.

 

We were bit unlucky with the game going into two days, but our captain and management made these contradictory moves, which just don't add up.

 

They took senior in the team to help them in tough situations, but they never really used him in that situation. 

 

Kohli is a brilliant test captain, but in ODI'S he's contradicting himself by being either too attacking, or too conservative and in between that, it will hurt India, it has already hurt us.  It's time to move on from him in LOI Cricket. 

 

 

 

There were lot of others contradictions too. Like Playing kuldeep and Chahal in XI. The biggest legacy of Kohli so far was playing two wrist spinners together in playing XI. That is kohli's ideology. To attack the opposition with wrist spinners in the middle over. But one failure against England, and Kohli panicked. Yeah, jadeja did well. But what about kohli's of ideology.

[Laaloo]

5 minutes ago, diehardpacer said:

Had Dhoni played at 4,he would have played 40-50 ball 15 run innings & all 3 of Pant,Pandya & Jadeja would have gone out due to not getting strike.

Pant & Pandya were playing well to recover but their over defensiveness towards Santner got both of them out.

True. Williamson would have just brought in santner if dhoni came at 4 and dhoni would have tuk tuked us out of the game.

[nevada]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Or maybe, the thinking was that by holding Dhoni back, you push the kiwis into saving some overs of their best bowlers instead of going all out attack, thereby creating a window of opportunity for the younger players to bat earlier in the game, with less pressure than the end.  All we needed was one of Karthik/Pant/Pandya to bat well.  Unfortunately for Team India,  we went 0 for 3 in this.  If one of those guys had "pulled a Jadeja" or even half of that, they would have broken the game open quite early, and it would have turned into a downhill chase.

 

Karthik's shot selection was horrible after his 0(20).  He had no business hitting the ball in the air like that.  Pant and Pandya fell attempting the big shot against the spinner - bit of risk there, but both of them have good degrees of success doing just that.  

 

Its small margins.  It just wasn't meant to be.  

We can bash TM all we want but I was actually very disappointed with the way Pant and Hardik got out. Pant had a golden opportunity to make a name himself and he threw it away. Hardik who bashed sixers at will even in the disastrous CT17 final played a very tame innings. If both these guys would have hit a six or two before getting out, we might have won the match. 

[Pollack]

"It wasn't our day"

"It just wasn't meant to be"

"We were a bit unfortunate"

Losers mentality.

[Cricketics]

1 hour ago, nevada said:

We can bash TM all we want but I was actually very disappointed with the way Pant and Hardik got out. Pant had a golden opportunity to make a name himself and he threw it away. Hardik who bashed sixers at will even in the disastrous CT17 final played a very tame innings. If both these guys would have hit a six or two before getting out, we might have won the match. 

Hence we need healthy competition for Pant and Pandua. Pant deserves now proper run but Kishan needs to be also continue to played for all India A games so that there is healthy competition maintained. I think Pant will get better just like he got better in Test after getting proper chance, but competition has to be there so no youngster can take their place for granted. 

[vice]

How do we even know if Dhoni even wanted to bat at #4. Regardless who's decision it was (team management of Dhoni's), the only message the viewers got was that Dhoni came early usually when we had some decent starts, and here he was hiding in the semis.

[cricketfan28]

5/3 is what knocked us out.

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, nevada said:

We can bash TM all we want but I was actually very disappointed with the way Pant and Hardik got out. Pant had a golden opportunity to make a name himself and he threw it away. Hardik who bashed sixers at will even in the disastrous CT17 final played a very tame innings. If both these guys would have hit a six or two before getting out, we might have won the match. 

Fair point - Both of them got 'in' and then got out.  If only.

[srij]

24/4 In 10 overs against nz and  28/1 against eng are 2 worst pp by ind