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The dumb math of playing the extra batsman

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There is an old saying (don't know who said it) - "If your batting is strong and when you have a good batsman in the reserve, play the extra batsman to strengthen your batting." and vice versa. In the past, it worked for India as batting was its (only) strength. The players fighting for the "extra" spot were likes of VVS and Doda Ganesh for e.g. The choice to go with an extra batsman was easy, esp. considering Sehwag, Tendulkar and Ganguly could bowl decently too. 

 

Have you heard the story of "neem hakim khatre jaan"? Let me go through it again - One day, on his way to home, a hakim heard a distress call market. A camel had a watermelon stuck in its neck. Another hakim attended the camel by taking a stone and gently crashing the melon. The camel was back on its feet. The neem hakim observed the phenomena with interest. Next day, he was called upon to examine an old lady who had a tumor on her neck. He saw the bump and remembered what had happened in the market y'day. Craftly, he took out a stone and crushed the old lady's neck .... This can also be explained by -> If you have a stable full of horses that run like donkeys. You don't improve your chances of winning a race by bringing in more horses who run like donkeys. 

 

Unless we optimize the 5 batting slots first, an extra batsman will not help usually. By optimizing, I mean picking up the best in-form options for the 5 batting slots as per the conditions. A similar exercise needs to be done for the 4 bowling slots. 

 

Drawing more parallels - Ind is currently like a man with a short blanket. Cover the feet, the head gets exposed. Cover the head, the feet get exposed. By not optimizing the specialist batting slots (played Dhawan and Rahane for e.g.), the extra batsman did not add much value. Ind gave the lead and is struggling in its 2nd innings. In the first inning, we only saw 2 scores in the 50 runs range from the top 6, and ofc no "big" score. In the 2nd inning, only 1. Our bowling suffered big time. In the 5th test of this long series, the pace bowlers lost their steam, giving more than 750 runs in the game. 

 

Traditionally, Ind has been weak strategically and tactically. Decisions are is usually based on hope, dumb math, delusions, and to cover for struggling players (rather than replacing them). We take one step forward and two backwards. I hope that we get in a coach, preferably foreign, who can bring in clear thinking to team Ind. 

 

Over and Out. 

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By dropping the 4th pacer,  India lost the only strength it had in this series ... it's bowling.

 

We took 20 wickets cheaply in 3 tests we played 4 pacers. We won 1 of those tests and barely lost the other two.

 

England scored big in the 2 tests we played 3 pacers.   And we had no chance of winning.

 

Umesh should have played in place of Kuldeep in the 2nd test.

 

4 pacers + 1 spinner a must in SENA countries.

 

 

Edited by express bowling
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4 hours ago, zen said:

There is an old saying (don't know who said it) - "If your batting is strong and when you have a good batsman in the reserve, play the extra batsman to strengthen your batting." and vice versa. In the past, it worked for India as batting was its (only) strength. The players fighting for the "extra" spot were likes of VVS and Doda Ganesh for e.g. The choice to go with an extra batsman was easy, esp. considering Sehwag, Tendulkar and Ganguly could bowl decently too. 

 

Have you heard the story of "neem hakim khatre jaan"? Let me go through it again - One day, on his way to home, a hakim heard a distress call market. A camel had a watermelon stuck in its neck. Another hakim attended the camel by taking a stone and gently crashing the melon. The camel was back on its feet. The neem hakim observed the phenomena with interest. Next day, he was called upon to examine an old lady who had a tumor on her neck. He saw the bump and remembered what had happened in the market y'day. Craftly, he took out a stone and crushed the old lady's neck .... This can also be explained by -> If you have a stable full of horses that run like donkeys. You don't improve your chances of winning a race by bringing in more horses who run like donkeys. 

 

Unless we optimize the 5 batting slots first, an extra batsman will not help usually. By optimizing, I mean picking up the best in-form options for the 5 batting slots as per the conditions. A similar exercise needs to be done for the 4 bowling slots. 

 

Drawing more parallels - Ind is currently like a man with a short blanket. Cover the feet, the head gets exposed. Cover the head, the feet get exposed. By not optimizing the specialist batting slots (played Dhawan and Rahane for e.g.), the extra batsman did not add much value. Ind gave the lead and is struggling in its 2nd innings. In the first inning, we only saw 2 scores in the 50 runs range from the top 6, and ofc no "big" score. In the 2nd inning, only 1. Our bowling suffered big time. In the 5th test of this long series, the pace bowlers lost their steam, giving more than 750 runs in the game. 

 

Traditionally, Ind has been weak strategically and tactically. Decisions are is usually based on hope, dumb math, delusions, and to cover for struggling players (rather than replacing them). We take one step forward and two backwards. I hope that we get in a coach, preferably foreign, who can bring in clear thinking to team Ind. 

 

Over and Out. 

Damn u i so wanted to write a Post on this with a headline

 

" 6 batsman theory .....A defensive theory ,nothing but just a solace for restless minds "

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QUALITY OPENERS..... no escaping from this....That is THE basic problem. Not once in a blue moon Rahuls(when nothing to lose and in easy conditions inflates  stats )  and utter flop Dhawans.We need those openers who are capable of playing out first 20 overs with out losing a wkt  more often than not .

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New norm is 5 (Batsmen) + 4 (Bowlers) +1 (WK) + 1 (Open Slot) .... w/ the open slot decided based on S&W and options available after optimizing the specialist slots but would usually go to an AR to provide balance and the "Swiss Army Knife" option to the team 

 

Here, Ind played a batsman in the open slot w/o first optimizing its batting and when pace bowling was a strength relatively. Therefore, it paid the price 

 

Various anecdotes are provided in the OP 

Edited by zen
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2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

in those 6 we had 3 very good part timers (sachin, sehwag, ganguly) now we dnt.....we cnt live with tht norm anymore 

But the alternative further weakens the batting since we don't have anyone of Sehwag/Ganguly's caliber currently, Virat having taken over Sachin's role as top gun. Furthermore, part timers weren't winning us tests that often.

 

The greatest teams had 4 awesome bowlers and that's what I'd want as well in absence of an awesome all rounder.

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3 minutes ago, Clarke said:

But the alternative further weakens the batting since we don't have anyone of Sehwag/Ganguly's caliber currently, Virat having taken over Sachin's role as top gun. Furthermore, part timers weren't winning us tests that often.

 

The greatest teams had 4 awesome bowlers and that's what I'd want as well in absence of an awesome all rounder.

coz ur batsman are not taking the responsibility , find better batsman as simple as that dnt break ur bowlers ......

U wnt find awesome all rounder like that, they have to made over a period of time

I hve already posted stats of most gr8 all rounder and most of them had poor stats then pandya .....its takes time to build players specially in such tough conditions their wud be inconsistencies. Apart from kohli which batsman has been consistent so why are u expecting that from all rounder atleast he lends balance and contributes in someway....question shud be asked from the players who arent contributing much 

 

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11 minutes ago, Clarke said:

But the alternative further weakens the batting since we don't have anyone of Sehwag/Ganguly's caliber currently, Virat having taken over Sachin's role as top gun. Furthermore, part timers weren't winning us tests that often.

 

The greatest teams had 4 awesome bowlers and that's what I'd want as well in absence of an awesome all rounder.

Which is why adding inadequate batting w/o subtracting struggling batmen (not optimizing the slots) only weakened the team w/ batting not making an impact and bowling, a relative strength, becoming diluted as well

 

"IF" we have Sehwag and Ganguly, play them. Since they bowl relatively well, they can offer support to bowling too 

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India remove India from query
Opposition team England remove England from query
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Overall figures
Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
RA Jadeja 1 2 1 99 86* 99.00 202 49.00 0 1 0 13 1 investigate this query
V Kohli 5 10 0 593 149 59.30 1025 57.85 2 3 1 67 1 investigate this query
CA Pujara 4 8 1 278 132* 39.71 726 38.29 1 1 1 33 0 investigate this query
KL Rahul 5 10 0 299 149 29.90 450 66.44 1 0 1 44 1 investigate this query
GH Vihari 1 2 0 56 56 28.00 130 43.07 0 1 1 7 1 investigate this query
RR Pant 3 6 0 162 114 27.00 252 64.28 1 0 1 20 6 investigate this query
AM Rahane 5 10 0 257 81 25.70 639 40.21 0 2 1 27 0 investigate this query
HH Pandya 4 8 1 164 52* 23.42 288 56.94 0 1 1 26 1 investigate this query
R Ashwin 4 8 2 126 33* 21.00 177 71.18 0 0 0 19 1 investigate this query
S Dhawan 4 8 0 162 44 20.25 292 55.47 0 0 0 23 0 investigate this query
M Vijay 2 4 0 26 20 6.50 75 34.66 0 0 2 4 0 investigate this query
KD Karthik 2 4 0 21 20 5.25 58 36.20 0 0 2 2 0

 

PS please read the OP, if you haven't, not just the title 

Edited by zen
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1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

coz ur batsman are not taking the responsibility , find better batsman as simple as that dnt break ur bowlers ......

U wnt find awesome all rounder like that, they have to made over a period of time

I hve already posted stats of most gr8 all rounder and most of them had poor stats then pandya .....its takes time to build players specially in such tough conditions their wud be inconsistencies. Apart from kohli which batsman has been consistent so why are u expecting that from all rounder atleast he lends balance and contributes in someway....question shud be asked from the players who arent contributing much 

 

I'm not against the Pandya experiment and neither want to break down the bowlers. My point is a pool of 5 quality quicks and 2-3 spinners should be able to handle a long series as this one. It looks like we are close to having that set of bowlers. 

 

My emphasis on 6+1+4 has historical backing. There's also the fact that a strengthened batting increases the chance of saving a game if bowling doesn't go well but a weaker batting reduces that possibility, its mostly losses and maybe a few wins.

 

I'm not rigit on this 6-1-4 combination but it looks like a preferable one. Batting or Bowling all rounders who are good enough to excel in their primary dept are of course preferable and so is a solid all rounder.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Clarke said:

I'm not against the Pandya experiment and neither want to break down the bowlers. My point is a pool of 5 quality quicks and 2-3 spinners should be able to handle a long series as this one. It looks like we are close to having that set of bowlers. 

My problem in that bumrah is permanent n he plays all format

WC one yr left, i dnt want him to break down and neither bhuvi

 

Its also not about pandya, i hve been a suppourter of shankar to. Ill travel with both overseas

Quote

My emphasis on 6+1+4 has historical backing. There's also the fact that a strengthened batting increases the chance of saving a game if bowling doesn't go well but a weaker batting reduces that possibility, its mostly losses and maybe a few wins.

I dnt remember the last time we won with 6 batsman overseas

Lords- binny 

3rd test against eng - pandya

3rd test against Sa- Pandya

WI- ashwin was batting at 6

2007 perth test- irfan was their 

 

Quote

 

I'm not rigit on this 6-1-4 combination but it looks like a preferable one. Batting or Bowling all rounders who are good enough to excel in their primary dept are of course preferable and so is a solid all rounder.

 

 

Rather the concentration shud be to find consistent batsman, instead they are given a free ride. 5 batsman or 6 batsman doesnt matter if they dnt perform 

Everyone has a job in team and its batsman job to make runs not lower order to be consistent as they have other jobs to 

 

or else find 2-3 batsman who can be good part timers then play 6 batsman

Edited by Ankit_sharma03
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48 minutes ago, Clarke said:

6+1+4 has been the norm for a long time unless one's got a special all rounder. 

 

It was the norm before the T20 leagues started and even international pacers played lots of domestic FC games including County cricket.  Those pacers practiced bowling lots of overs a day and could do that in tests too.

 

T20 league era international pacers hardly play County cricket and other domestic FC games ... Asian pacers don't get a chance to bowl 15+ overs a day in home tests either.  They may lose intensity if they have to bowl 22 overs a day as they are not used to it.  Extra bowler is needed more these days.

 

Another thing is ... there were a couple of batsmen who could bowl too in those days.   Nowadays, no batsman wants to bowl.

Edited by express bowling
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