Ayodhya Verdict

[Gollum]

37 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Muslims (of India) didn't insist on violence re: the Babri masjid dispute. Though unhappy with the locking of the Babri Masjid from 1949, they didn't do anything remotely close to what the karsevaks did in 1992.  The Wakf board approached the court, on both occasions.

What exactly are you talking about?  

Not here but in other places hell yeah. Any idea about the state of temples in Kashmir? 

The Valley of Abandoned Gods

208 temples damaged in Kashmir in last two decades: Kashmir govt

 

In 1992 Muslims just killed many karsevaks with backing of Mulayam. Then there was retaliation and full blown riots. 

 

You must understand the importance of Ayodhya for majority Hindus, is Babri Masjid that important? Quwwat-ul-Islam mosque in Delhi (Qutb Minar complex) was constructed from ruins of 27 Hindu and Jain temples, don't see Hindus/Jains raise that? How would Muslims react if the Yanks demolish Mecca/Medina sites and construct churches only to leave after a few years. Will Muslims allow the churches to exist or would they make corrections. That the Muslim community failed to show grace these last 72 years, refused to adjust shows me all I need to know. Rest assured if the tables were turned, Hindus would have voluntarily constructed a mosque/dargah in 1947 itself. When Pakistanis were demolishing all non-Islamic places of worship during partition riots Hindus were restoring the vandalized Qutbuddin Bakthiyar Kaki dargah for the Urs, Sikhs did something similar in Malerkotla. 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Gollum

[someone]

22 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

Can this verdict be used as a precedent to claim other sites that were hindu but demolished to make a mosque?

Kashmirs pandits were thrown away and lost all their properties, happening in front of the eyes of the courts, yet they remained silent. This Ram Mandir is a one-off case and that too the conclusion happened about prolonged delay. Thus, there is little hope for other cases/sites.

[Gollum]

20 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@Gollum 

I was talking in context of the Ram Janmabhoomi dispute.

OK then.

Quote

There is a distinction between the invaders who demolished the existing structure and build the Babri masjid, and the Muslims who reside in the vicinity today.

Arguably, a historic wrong has been corrected today. Why still the bitterness towards present people who have naught to do with it?

Bitterness maybe because many Muslims continue to insist on today's judgement being wrong. If Muslims want to continue to associate with the invaders obviously there will be trust issues, why can't they accept that they were part of our society when the marauders came? Why can't they accept that their ancestors too suffered during these invasions? I am sure it is possible for Islam and Indic roots to co-exist, Kalam being the foremost example. Worst of all at least I find the entire saga over Ayodhya distasteful, very petty minded because of importance of that site for the two communities. Muslims should have swapped the land much before 92, I am sure they would have been adequately compensated then and equations between the communities very different now. To see them continue to stall any effort towards resolution for 7 decades, the sad events of the 90s, lives lost etc, all could have been avoided. As @maniac mentioned that stigma will now remain. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Gollum

[speed_thrills]

Wow, going through the last pages of this thread and it has reaffirmed my thought that liberal Muslim is an oxymoron.

[MechEng]

What are your weekend plans?

[Gollum]

@Mariyam Structure relocation tech is improving by the day, it is quite possible that in 10-15 years time we will have developed the resources to do the same to our old monuments. If there is a proposal to shift Mathura/Varanasi mosques (small enough, we aren't talking about Taj Mahal) using the tech to other localities whilst reclaiming the original Hindu structures do you think there will be opposition? Throw in some financial compensation, plus assurance that the structures won't  be damaged (govt can pay whatever hefty amount necessary)...will the Indian Muslim community accept? I'll even suggest govt chipping in to ensure the relocated mosques are as grand as the earlier versions. Minimizes chance of violence and bad blood whilst ensuring no place of worship is vandalized. 

 

This makes sense, no? Probably just 2-3 more contentious places of importance. After that Hindu community has to shut up and forget this topic, no more mandir/masjid politics. I don't think the Muslim side will be amenable to such a proposal. More than associating importance to their places of worship I think these structures hold importance because it is a way to humiliate Hindus, to remind them of the medieval era. Otherwise mosques can be built anywhere, why so much attachment to a deserted mosque (Babri) at the site of birthplace of a deity millions hold dear? Likewise there are so many other mosques in the other 2 cities, can always add one more. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Gollum

[FischerTal]

42 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Yes

I feel like that's what's going to happen. I don't believe this will end well though.

[Mariyam]

13 minutes ago, Gollum said:

OK then.

Bitterness maybe because many Muslims continue to insist on today's judgement being wrong. If Muslims want to continue to associate with the invaders obviously there will be trust issues, why can't they accept that they were part of our society when the marauders came? Why can't they accept that their ancestors too suffered during these invasions? I am sure it is possible for Islam and Indic roots to co-exist, Kalam being the foremost example. Worst of all at least I find the entire saga over Ayodhya distasteful, very petty minded because of importance of that site for the two communities. Muslims should have swapped the land much before 92, I am sure they would have been adequately compensated then and equations between the communities very different now. To see them continue to stall any effort towards resolution for 7 decades, the sad events of the 90s, lives lost etc, all could have been avoided. As @maniac mentioned that stigma will now remain. 

The ones who matter in this dispute ie the Sunni Wakf Board are not planning on filing a review petition.

Most Muslim religious leaders ( and politicians) have more or less accepted this judgement. Most people are glad this entire episode is now done with.

 

It is Owaisi mainly (no surprises) and the AIMPLB which have made noises. AIMPLB is a body of diminishing relevance. Their entire raison d'etre is raising the "Islam khatre mein hain" slogan to stay relevant. They were also dead against the Triple Talaq. What do you expect from such a parochial entity?

 

 

[vayuu1]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

 

@Under_Score @Ranvir @vice @Singh bling Is this true? 

https://m-hindi.webdunia.com/ayodhya-special/gurudwara-sri-brahma-kund-sahib-in-ayodhya-119110800025_1.html

 

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.amarujala.com/amp/india-news/ayodhya-case-verdict-2019-sikh-nihang-singh-faqir-khalsa-pooja-at-babri-masjid

Bhai Hindu's should bow to Sikhs out of respect, they did so much for us,and I have not even spoken about Guru teg bahadur, Hari Singh nalwa,maharana Ranjit Singh, banda singh bahadur,baba Dilip Singh, Guru Arjan Dev and rest of Sikh gurus,we owe a lot to them,I am proud that I belong to half Hindu half Sikh family.

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

I feel like that's what's going to happen. I don't believe this will end well though.

Just 2 more bhai since Somnath and Ayodhya have been taken care of, after that no scope of mandir-masjid disputes IMO. Many temples are in bad shape but no historical feud with other communities. 

 

Hindus don't care about the temples demolished to construct Quwwat-ul-Islam mosque. Not all temples hold same importance .

[Mariyam]

15 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@Mariyam Structure relocation tech is improving by the day, it is quite possible that in 10-15 years time we will have developed the resources to do the same to our old monuments. If there is a proposal to shift Mathura/Varanasi mosques (small enough, we aren't talking about Taj Mahal) using the tech to other localities whilst reclaiming the original Hindu structures do you think there will be opposition? Throw in some financial compensation, plus assurance that the structures won't  be damaged (govt can pay whatever hefty amount necessary)...will the Indian Muslim community accept? I'll even suggest govt chipping in to ensure the relocated mosques are as grand as the earlier versions. Minimizes chance of violence and bad blood whilst ensuring no place of worship is vandalized. 

 

This makes sense, no? Probably just 2-3 more contentious places of importance. After that Hindu community has to shut up and forget this topic, no more mandir/masjid politics. I don't think the Muslim side will be amenable to such a proposal. More than associating importance to their places of worship I think these structures hold importance because it is a way to humiliate Hindus, to remind them of the medieval era. Otherwise mosques can be built anywhere, why so much attachment to a deserted mosque (Babri) at the site of birthplace of a deity millions hold dear? Likewise there are so many other mosques in the other 2 cities, can always add one more. 

I really cannot predict how others would respond.

 

But if there is sufficient proof of the existence of an earlier structure, and if the site holds special religious significance, I am of the opinion that the Muslim organization/body in charge holding the land should just relinquish claim and move to another area. Now we even have a precedent of sorts.

 

Wrt the Babri masjid; I don't think it was an emotive issue for the common Muslim until 1992. It was a title deed case in the Faizabad court, and there are lakhs of such cases all over the country. It elicited little interest. It was the vitiating circumstances in which the structure was brought down and the few weeks before and after the event which was seen as humiliating by many Muslims.

[Gollum]

Epic meltdown in PDF...but need tough skin to enjoy that.

 

[someone]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Is that an euphemism for sent karsevaks to break down the masjid?

This Hindu guilt trip has to stop. We know our history, and not afraid to overcome our own issues. We don't own anything to anyone.

[someone]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

OK then.

Bitterness maybe because many Muslims continue to insist on today's judgement being wrong. If Muslims want to continue to associate with the invaders obviously there will be trust issues, why can't they accept that they were part of our society when the marauders came? Why can't they accept that their ancestors too suffered during these invasions?

Because they are converts, and they don't want to admit it. They take pride in calling those barbarians as heroics. There is a taboo on a lot of history, and it's about time it has to discussed and educated even if it is uncomfortable facts to some. For some, they are eternal victims thus many historical facts keeps getting misrepresented.

[Laaloo]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Epic meltdown in PDF...but need tough skin to enjoy that.

 

PDF?

[javier26]

Just now, Laaloo said:

PDF?

Pakistan defense forum

[javier26]

Just now, Gollum said:

@Mariyam Structure relocation tech is improving by the day, it is quite possible that in 10-15 years time we will have developed the resources to do the same to our old monuments. If there is a proposal to shift Mathura/Varanasi mosques (small enough, we aren't talking about Taj Mahal) using the tech to other localities whilst reclaiming the original Hindu structures do you think there will be opposition? Throw in some financial compensation, plus assurance that the structures won't  be damaged (govt can pay whatever hefty amount necessary)...will the Indian Muslim community accept? I'll even suggest govt chipping in to ensure the relocated mosques are as grand as the earlier versions. Minimizes chance of violence and bad blood whilst ensuring no place of worship is vandalized. 

 

This makes sense, no? Probably just 2-3 more contentious places of importance. After that Hindu community has to shut up and forget this topic, no more mandir/masjid politics. I don't think the Muslim side will be amenable to such a proposal. More than associating importance to their places of worship I think these structures hold importance because it is a way to humiliate Hindus, to remind them of the medieval era. Otherwise mosques can be built anywhere, why so much attachment to a deserted mosque (Babri) at the site of birthplace of a deity millions hold dear? Likewise there are so many other mosques in the other 2 cities, can always add one more. 

Thats exactly what is the purpose of all these monuments , they want to preserve the legacy of Invaders that serves as a reminder to Hindus of their humiliating past.

 

 

[Khalpat]

7 hours ago, Audiophile said:

Waste of time getting riled up over organized religious stuff. I could not care less if there is Mandir or a Masjid built or both co-exist.

 

Go solve the issues that plague modern India - extreme overpopulation, extreme poverty, lack of education, extreme wealth gap, poor infrastructure, polluted environment, jobs, warega, warega, warega ...

 

Reminds me of my depressed friend who stopped going to gym. I asked him the reason he said, " here I am not getting promotion and you are talking about things like gym , Playing Tennis and all". It was tough to explain it to him that for your life all the activities have same importance. No need to say this but similar concept is for your country too. Their are problems definitely but just because you do not believe in certain areas doesn't mean it was not a problem. 

 

[rahulrulezz]

6 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@Gollum 

I was talking in context of the Ram Janmabhoomi dispute.

 

There is a distinction between the invaders who demolished the existing structure and build the Babri masjid, and the Muslims who reside in the vicinity today.

Arguably, a historic wrong has been corrected today. Why still the bitterness towards present people who have naught to do with it?

 

 

I have read excerpts of Baburnama and you can see his immense pride in building steps of mosques using Hindu idols. Kinda breaks my heart every time I read some of the memoirs of Mughal emperors. The enjoyment they bad breaking idols is so sad. 

 

 

But this particular post of yours hit me hard. Maybe other Indians should also read this post. 

[Deleted_User_1]

8 hours ago, Gollum said:

Why does it have to be this OR that. Shouldn't we reclaim our civilization? Have our ancestors sacrificed their lives for no reason? This is a centuries old war with the enemy, we have lost half our country because of them, should we allow them to walk all over us? Muslims can never be in peace with kafirs, either put them in their place or die. We are fighting for our existence, for our rights. Need to learn from our history, else we will repeat mistakes. 

It can be both if the government does so. Very often they will use these distractions to hid their incompetence in the areas that really matter in people's lives. Do you think a beggar who is not sure if there is going to be a meal for him next time gives us a flying phuck about Ram or Mohammed? This is not my saying, rather Swami Vivekananda (I am paraphrasing of course). I see this in the United States as well with the phucktard Trump as well. Blame somebody else to deflect attention.

 

So what is your solution? Just because Muslim invaders came from the northwest and occupied that land of the Hindus, we start marginalizing all of them? You know there were humans in India long before the Aryans came along. Dravidians probably can claim closer association to the motherland and northies can. So now the South should start marginalizing the north?

 

And finally, you know that Rama is not a historical figure. It comes from Hindu mythology and there is no historic proof that Rama, Krishna, etc ever existed. Same with other characters of the two Hindu epics. It may have been a reflection of ancient societies, but there is no historical proof. Same as there is no historical proof that Jesus truly existed. So I say, enough of this organized religion shyt!!!

 

BTW, I have same approach towards Islam, maybe even harsher. But I would rather not get into it.