sandeep Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 40 minutes ago, someone said: Congrats, so you know how to write a post, without shouting bigots or fascism. Chalo, I will accept that maybe at times I'm a bit trigger happy with "calling out bigotry". Its quite possible. coffee_rules and someone 2
sandeep Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 48 minutes ago, someone said: he problem lies that where is your method? 1 hour ago, sandeep said: However, my belief in the solutions for that problem is markedly different than a lot of vocal folks on this forum. And just because I acknowledge the problem, does not mean that I will not speak out against overt prejudice. Which I believe is counter-productive in that it ends up strengthening the problematic extremists hiding in the muslim populace. A very obvious and current parallel exists with the current Covid19 pandemic. I unequivocally blame the Chinese govt for their screw up and coverup which led to global spread. And the dangerous food habits of chinese folks are responsible as well. But calling the virus "chinese virus" etc may satisfy the emotional need to assign blame, but in reality is helping the evil CCP regime gather more support from their citizens. When the international public, media, moron Trump etc start attacking the Chinese 'nation', it will stop the local chinese from rightly criticizing and questioning their govt's failure, and switch them into defensive mode. Its human nature. This is why the evil CCP has stepped up its English langauge "propaganda" about accusing US military etc. They want to elicit backlash from idiots like Trump and more. They want to turn this into a "us vs them". Because if they don't, they would be asked questions by the entire planet, AND their own people, as to why the FFFFCK did they sit on this in the early stage and end up causing all this havoc. Similarly, by tarring all muslims with the jihad brush, being "aggressive" and "truth telling" in attacking the Islamic fundamentalism problem, such actions and words actually end up making the muslim ppl defensive, circling the wagons on their faith and their "tribe". Which is not in India's or anybody's interest. The objective is to isolate the fringe, and slowly chip away and make it smaller and smaller. Not to create incentives for the benign or "undecided" muslims to migrate towards the fringe by indulging in our desire to hurl invectives.
coffee_rules Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, sandeep said: The country where a woman got lashes as punishment for complaining about loudspeaker azaans? Not secular - only looks awesome compared to the crazy extremist ones. 34 minutes ago, Gollum said: True a few decades back, no longer the case. Wahhabism has made major inroads in that country. Sad. I had talked to one cruise crewman from Indonesia , some years back, a muslim, who was proud of his Hinduness. Maybe it was for the tips Anyway, we hear less crazy stories from Indonesia to believe they are as radicalized as say Malays. Malaysians are horrible, slaughtering cows in front of temples etc. Also, the Indonesian President was proud of his connection with Krishna. They have Hindu gods printed on their currency, which we don't dare to do. Imagine the brickbats on Modi if it happens. https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-news/story/did-you-know-lord-ganesha-s-picture-is-inscribed-on-indonesia-s-currency-note-your-dose-of-wednesday-wisdom-here-1595406-2019-09-04 Such news made me think their leaders at least are secular. But, I agree at the Mullah level, they can't be secular.
panther Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, Gollum said: We are aware of state of affairs in Afg, Pak, BD. But what about Maldives? Small, often forgotten country, less than half a million population. Is it a secular democracy? Tolerant? Ghanta. Only Muslims can be citizens there, practice of faith other than Islam is banned in the country....even Pakistan isn't half as bad. I think even Shia Islam is banned. And yeah, apostasy/blasphemy mean death sentence with no chance of escaping. They look like Mallus and behave like Saudis, then have the nerve to lecture India about tolerance and treatment of minorities. Secularism is a burden for you, not for us we never entertain this idea. VT87 and sandeep 2
someone Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, sandeep said: However, my belief in the solutions for that problem is markedly different than a lot of vocal folks on this forum. And just because I acknowledge the problem, does not mean that I will not speak out against overt prejudice. Which I believe is counter-productive in that it ends up strengthening the problematic extremists hiding in the muslim populace. A very obvious and current parallel exists with the current Covid19 pandemic. I unequivocally blame the Chinese govt for their screw up and coverup which led to global spread. And the dangerous food habits of chinese folks are responsible as well. But calling the virus "chinese virus" etc may satisfy the emotional need to assign blame, but in reality is helping the evil CCP regime gather more support from their citizens. When the international public, media, moron Trump etc start attacking the Chinese 'nation', it will stop the local chinese from rightly criticizing and questioning their govt's failure, and switch them into defensive mode. Its human nature. This is why the evil CCP has stepped up its English langauge "propaganda" about accusing US military etc. They want to elicit backlash from idiots like Trump and more. They want to turn this into a "us vs them". Because if they don't, they would be asked questions by the entire planet, AND their own people, as to why the FFFFCK did they sit on this in the early stage and end up causing all this havoc. Similarly, by tarring all muslims with the jihad brush, being "aggressive" and "truth telling" in attacking the Islamic fundamentalism problem, such actions and words actually end up making the muslim ppl defensive, circling the wagons on their faith and their "tribe". Which is not in India's or anybody's interest. The objective is to isolate the fringe, and slowly chip away and make it smaller and smaller. Not to create incentives for the benign or "undecided" muslims to migrate towards the fringe by indulging in our desire to hurl invectives. So where is the solution? You are all emotions and making a fuzz over names. Is that all your argument on how certain names hurts your personal feelings and thus everybody has to stop it? You ought to give precise solutions to precise questions asked. I talked about Breaking India forces, and the example of the recent CAA-rioters and how can we solve it? Your morale conscience post has failed as these aren't misguided people but determined, and hell-bent people ready to take anything for hostage to get their demands... And what makes you think that the other side that is often referred to as just Muslims? Fact is they also have many Hindus who are basically sold out, and thus, you should quit getting emotional and stop seeing it as just a religious affair...
sandeep Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, someone said: So where is the solution? You are all emotions and making a fuzz over names. Is that all your argument on how certain names hurts your personal feelings and thus everybody has to stop it? You ought to give precise solutions to precise questions asked. I talked about Breaking India forces, and the example of the recent CAA-rioters and how can we solve it? Your morale conscience post has failed as these aren't misguided people but determined, and hell-bent people ready to take anything for hostage to get their demands... And what makes you think that the other side that is often referred to as just Muslims? Fact is they also have many Hindus who are basically sold out, and thus, you should quit getting emotional and stop seeing it as just a religious affair... You seem determined to miss my point. Let's leave it.
Gollum Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Sad. I had talked to one cruise crewman from Indonesia , some years back, a muslim, who was proud of his Hinduness. Maybe it was for the tips Anyway, we hear less crazy stories from Indonesia to believe they are as radicalized as say Malays. Malaysians are horrible, slaughtering cows in front of temples etc. Also, the Indonesian President was proud of his connection with Krishna. They have Hindu gods printed on their currency, which we don't dare to do. Imagine the brickbats on Modi if it happens. https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-news/story/did-you-know-lord-ganesha-s-picture-is-inscribed-on-indonesia-s-currency-note-your-dose-of-wednesday-wisdom-here-1595406-2019-09-04 Such news made me think their leaders at least are secular. But, I agree at the Mullah level, they can't be secular. Kindergarten under fire after parading children in niqabs, rifles on Indonesian Independence Day Jakarta’s Christian governor sentenced to prison in blasphemy case Official reason was he insulted Islam by saying that mullahs were wrongly interpreting Quran for selfish reasons. Real reason was they couldn't stomach a Christian as Governor of Jakarta even though he was damn good at his job. Check out Bali bombings and aggressive Islamic takeover in the Hindu majority island, many articles. Also it is forbidden to construct non-Islamic places of worship in Indonesia. Last year on Christmas eve they tore down a couple of churches, many historic temples and stupas too have been demolished. coffee_rules 1
Jimmy Cliff Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, sandeep said: No question of "gol matol" the answer is obvious. There is no nation on earth where muslims have allowed secularism, or even tolerance to flourish, if they have numbers on their side. The fact that you pose this question to me, this way, clearly shows how you have incorrectly stereotyped me as some sort of apologist for muslims. I'm under no illusions about Islam and the average's muslim's mindset, potential capacity for extremism. However, my belief in the solutions for that problem is markedly different than a lot of vocal folks on this forum. And just because I acknowledge the problem, does not mean that I will not speak out against overt prejudice. Which I believe is counter-productive in that it ends up strengthening the problematic extremists hiding in the muslim populace. A very obvious and current parallel exists with the current Covid19 pandemic. I unequivocally blame the Chinese govt for their screw up and coverup which led to global spread. And the dangerous food habits of chinese folks are responsible as well. But calling the virus "chinese virus" etc may satisfy the emotional need to assign blame, but in reality is helping the evil CCP regime gather more support from their citizens. When the international public, media, moron Trump etc start attacking the Chinese 'nation', it will stop the local chinese from rightly criticizing and questioning their govt's failure, and switch them into defensive mode. Its human nature. This is why the evil CCP has stepped up its English langauge "propaganda" about accusing US military etc. They want to elicit backlash from idiots like Trump and more. They want to turn this into a "us vs them". Because if they don't, they would be asked questions by the entire planet, AND their own people, as to why the FFFFCK did they sit on this in the early stage and end up causing all this havoc. Similarly, by tarring all muslims with the jihad brush, being "aggressive" and "truth telling" in attacking the Islamic fundamentalism problem, such actions and words actually end up making the muslim ppl defensive, circling the wagons on their faith and their "tribe". Which is not in India's or anybody's interest. The objective is to isolate the fringe, and slowly chip away and make it smaller and smaller. Not to create incentives for the benign or "undecided" muslims to migrate towards the fringe by indulging in our desire to hurl invectives. So you agree that the answer to the question is no. Cool. I think I have addressed the rest of the argument in an earlier discussion. But if I had to summarize it again, I don't believe in tarring all Muslims with the Jihadi brush either but at the same time it's obvious that Islam does produce more religiously motivated nut-jobs compared to other religions. Brushing it under the carpet or beating around the bush lest it makes the moderates more defensive doesn't serve any purpose as we have seen since time immemorial. The onus should be on them to contribute more towards reform in Islam. It's about time. Edited March 20, 2020 by Jimmy Cliff Laaloo 1
sandeep Posted March 20, 2020 Posted March 20, 2020 43 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: Brushing it under the carpet or beating around the bush lest it makes the moderates more defensive doesn't serve any purpose as we have seen since time immemorial. The onus should be on them to contribute more towards reform in Islam. It's about time. Not advocating brushing anything under the carpet. Or beat around the bush. But from there, its a long way to outright prejudice, which I not only disagree with, but believe is counterproductive. 43 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: The onus should be on them to contribute more towards reform in Islam. It's about time. Yes, but if you want "reform in Islam", you have got to recognize it has to come from within - if you try to impose it, you have to be prepared to go full CCP, like the Uighurs. I don't think folks here want to start arresting 100 million muslims - simply speaking India can't afford the Uighur method. Its a non-starter. So all this "aggressive" talk is just that - talk. And does more harm than good. Stirring honest debate is fine, attacking the faith, or the general population wholesale, even though there may be a bit of justification, simply does not benefit us (society). Got to be smarter, more mature than that. OR, you could, you know, just go full basher-mode, since it feels good to say angry ****. Your choice.
Gollum Posted March 22, 2020 Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 1:29 AM, sandeep said: Yes, but if you want "reform in Islam", you have got to recognize it has to come from within Will it come from within though? What is your solution? Modi is a recent phenomenon, BJP is a new player. Congress and Left parties had a free run for more than half a century, why didn't things get better under their reign? Is there a single example of Muslims reforming for the better without force? someone 1
Gollum Posted March 22, 2020 Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) What about the judiciary? Recently some Pak HC gave a judgement in support of rape/abduction/conversion of a Christian minor. 5-6 years ago same happened in Malaysia where their top court basically said it was ok for elder Muslim men to rape and convert kafir minors and any attempt to reconvert=death sentence. In that case the victim was a Tamil girl, 10-12 years old. Maybe pedophlia and torture of kafir girls have backing in Islamic jurisprudence and/or sharia? While in Hindu majority India, the top court helped end TT and deliver justice to Muslim women. I don't think we would have seen any semblance of justice in the converse situation. Hindu women (and families) would have seen lots of suffering like in Mughal days and the judiciary would have been a rabid enabler of injustice. Edited March 22, 2020 by Gollum
sandeep Posted March 22, 2020 Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gollum said: Will it come from within though? It has to. Won't stick, or work, if it does not. 2 hours ago, Gollum said: What is your solution? I know what won't work - repeated and continuing public assaults and insults on the entire community of muslims - it only serves to strengthen the extremists within. When dealing with a complex problem of isolating, minimizing the risk of an extremist fringe within a mainstream religion, the need is to get all Chanakya on the issue. Society needs to isolate them, separate them from the larger pool of non-violent folks where they hide, create divisions between the wackos, and the regular muslims. But by publicly shouting insults, blaming the entire community, what does that achieve? It gives those extremists the chance to say to the average muslim - 'look, these people hate you, I am right all along". Now I'm not saying you need to go full candle-lighting, aman ki asha, but its simple phuckng common sense. Starve the jihadis of mainstream support - you are not guaranteed success, and it will take years and decades, but what is guaranteed is that if good social policy, and proper non-bigoted social cohesion exists, the jihadist fringe that exists within Islam, will stay on the fringe, and not muster more popular support. That is a great outcome in this scenario. Because its not like we have a few thousand or even lakhs of muslims. Even putting aside the moral and ethical reasons, it is simply impossible for India to somehow make all its muslims "disappear". Co-existence is not some utopian, idealistic kumbayaah wish. It is the only alternative. Problem with such solution is that its not 'sexy', it doesn't provide that short-term adrenalin hit of 'feeling good'. That verbal abuse does. Folks like to pat themselves on the back for "truth telling" - this is the same logic that motivates Trumpism. Slow long-term solutions that require smart consistent public policy are unsexy. Telling people to practice social distancing for 3 weeks is boring, the mind doesn't compute the need for patience and 24/7 protection. That's why idiots can't stop themselves from going to restaurants and doing normal things. Because the risk is too remote to get the immediate response psychologically and neurologically in our bodies and minds. 2 hours ago, Gollum said: why didn't things get better under their reign? Is there a single example of Muslims reforming for the better without force? I think you are looking at things wrong. I think Indian muslims are an excellent example of things working out better, relative to rest of the muslim world. Sure we still have the Owaisis, the Lateefahs. But we have millions of success stories. Given the propensity for jihadism and violent fundamentalism that exists baked in, within orthodox Islam, the fact that outside of J&K, India has not faced serious local Islamist rebellion is ample evidence of India's 'unity in diversity', boring "secular" method working out quite well. Now don't be childish and demand 100% effectiveness. That's only in fairytales. But purely from a cold calculating perspective, even if I was someone who harbored hatred towards muslims, my argument would be that overt prejudice, hostile rhetoric in society, etc is a tactic that is counter-productive in terms of "muslim management" and combating "Islamofascism". It is the equivalent of supplying arms to your enemy in the middle of an ongoing war. That is my point. Sure there always exists that strain of supremacist thinking in Islamists - that their faith is best, rest are kufr etc - but a benign non-violent 'believer' in Islamic supremacy, is not a problem for India. A besieged, violent believer is, even one that may not personally pick up weapons, but provide 'over-ground' support for the wacko criminals. Now I am not saying this means that you "coddle" the muslims with appeasement and special rights. I still support UCC. But don't go about in a fashion that makes them feel like ****. That's not necessary. Pursuit of universal equality in India is required, but you do not need to insult folks while you go about getting rid of silly laws and "special privileges". You couple absolute zero tolerance for 'riots' and crime, with repeated, consistent, reminders of the benefits of rejecting extremism in a modern, wealthy, 'normal' society. A consistent, but fair, and unbigoted implementation of a carrot and stick approach. Ultimately, I do not think there is any realistic way of completely exterminating the jihadi school of thought within Islam. Its a human psychological issue. Maybe, after a reformation that starts from inside Islam, after a couple of generations, violent jihad will become what slavery is today - a practice that was common in the past, but completely taboo today. I think we are at least 50 years away from such an outcome, if not more. But in the meantime, scoring strategic and tactical own-goals in the fight against extremism, just because it "feels good" to lash out, is infantile and foolish. Edited March 22, 2020 by sandeep Mariyam 1
Gollum Posted May 11, 2020 Posted May 11, 2020 You don’t vote for us, no ration for you: Poor in AAP MLA Amanatullah Khan’s constituency allege religious discrimination amid coronavirus lockdown Poor residents living in settlements in Sarita Vihar allege religious discrimination during ration distribution. Sarita Vihar falls under Okhla constituency which is represented by Aam Aadmi Party MLA Amanatullah Khan. Reality of kafirs in Muslim constituencies. Secular India https://www.opindia.com/2020/05/delhi-coronavirus-amanatullah-khan-aam-aadmi-party-okhla-sarita-vihar-religious-discrimination/
Gollum Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 Yeah, Kashmir valley is such a shining example of secularism and brotherhood.
LordPrabhzy Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Gollum said: Yeah, Kashmir valley is such a shining example of secularism and brotherhood. THIS
rkt.india Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 On 3/22/2020 at 7:56 PM, sandeep said: It has to. Won't stick, or work, if it does not. I know what won't work - repeated and continuing public assaults and insults on the entire community of muslims - it only serves to strengthen the extremists within. When dealing with a complex problem of isolating, minimizing the risk of an extremist fringe within a mainstream religion, the need is to get all Chanakya on the issue. Society needs to isolate them, separate them from the larger pool of non-violent folks wher I think you are looking at things wrong. I think Indian muslims are an excellent example of things working out better, relative to rest of the muslim world. Sure we still have the Owaisis, the Lateefahs. But we have millions of success stories. Given the propensity for jihadism and violent fundamentalism that exists baked in, within orthodox Islam, the fact that outside of J&K, India has not faced serious local Islamist rebellion is ample evidence of India's 'unity in diversity', boring "secular" method working out quite well. Things are only working out better because they are 15% here, not 50%.
Manny_Pacquiao Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 This question doesn't inspire any useful debate. A better question: Would India still be a democracy if Muslims were more than half the population ? Most of the people defending 'muslims' under the pretext of saving them from 'evil sanghis' also defend democracy as india's default system of government.
someone Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 7 hours ago, Manny_Pacquiao said: This question doesn't inspire any useful debate. A better question: Would India still be a democracy if Muslims were more than half the population ? Most of the people defending 'muslims' under the pretext of saving them from 'evil sanghis' also defend democracy as india's default system of government. The question has already been answered in history. Muslims always fight to preserve the "status quo". If they are in majority, they make sure they will be one united, it can be belevolent dictatorship but it will always religion supremacy will have to be preserved.
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