How do NZ gun bowlers ( Wagner+ Boult + Southee ) compare to ( Siraj+ Bumrah+Ishant) in English conditions ? Plus - reasons to be pessimistic about our chances against NZ in the WTC final

[Suhaan]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

India vs left arm seamers in final. Don't give me hopes. THey collapse like a deck of cards. Rohit sharma for all his home track dominance he is going to be vulnerable abroad. GIll a compulsive a stroke player will also be vulnerable.  I think Rahul has matured now. I would back him there as opener and push Gill down the order.

Rahul is equally bad even though he scored a 100 in Eng when it was already lost

Rahul has totally messed up his technique to suit his game in t20s

[neel roy]

10 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

1) Our utter collapse at the hands of the NZ seam attack in 2019 WC Semis

2) Then the 2-0 defeat in NZ conditions that are quite similar to English conditions

3) The fact that NZ literally get the best preparation for the WTC Final preparation with 2 test matches against England

4) A long @$$ IPL season for us prior to the WTC Finals 

5) NZ have long been the boogie team for us in ICC events

6) RAT's record as player and captain in ICC events and when the going gets tough..

 

 

....all these collectively make me a bit pessimistic about our chances against NZ in the finals.
 

NZ with their meagre resources is a very methodical team with a very scientific approach to the game.

 

They always raise their game in big matches.

 

Our pace attack needs to be in red hot form and our batting needs to be infinitely better.

 

I wonder in good form how do  NZ gun bowlers ( Wagner+ Boult + Southee ) compare to ( Siraj+ Bumrah+Ishant) in English conditions

 

 

 

Win the toss. Of the 3 matches you mentioned ,in all 3 we lost the toss. Wc semifinals was played after covers were on for 12 hrs after rain. You dont expect it to be chinnaswamy after that. 
 

in the 2 tests we lost toss again and got the greenest conditions and still made match of it taking a lead in one till Sam Curran appeared in the avatar of Kyle Jamieson.. in all 3 matches should say Indian had their chances. 
 

 

Oh if its in Ageas Bowl Southampton we might just win or have a good chance even if we lose toss. From day 3 it spins. Remember Moeen Ali against India..Pujara hundred.. and the ball swings much less than Lords plus it doesnt have the Lords slope.. i have been to both grounds and Southampton somehow from distance, the pitch looks more brownish ( i am talking day 3 when I went. I have seen a Lords test in day 4 there is still swing and still greenish as London weather helps to keep moisture and grass alive).

Edited March 7, 2021 by neel roy

[Khota]

7 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Extremely high expectations from a bunch of power hungry authoritarians in our TM. Individual brilliance (by players this TM despises) is keeping us afloat, but these bojos claim all the credit

I agree. TM sucks and will always suck but this is very winnable.

 

Team is sort of settled but need to find a way to get Rahul in.

[Jay]

batting averages in england vs england by kiwi players

 

ross - 40

watling - 55

cdg - never played but averages 52 at home vs them

nichols - only played at home never in england. averages 52

kane - 43 dangerman

latham- 38 pretty decent for an opener

blundel - never played in england

santner - 19.74

neil *ing wagner - 25   (only 2 games in england though)

southee - 16.55

boult - 9

jamieson - never played but he should average 20 ish

 

 

bowling

boult - averages 23.14 in england. one of his favourties. he is swing fodder who only excels when there is overcast conditions. averages 40 in india.

southee - 34. probz might be replaced with lockie if fit

wagner - 36

jamieson - untested. unproven. most likely does well as he is also condition dependent. give him about a 24 - 26 average i feel

cdg - 33.72

santner - 42

 

now for india;

india batsmen record in england with possible squad given lolli's selection policy as follows:

 

gill unproven. 

rohit - played one match averaged 17 but that was an inferior version. he is in peak form now. 

pujara - 29 average in england

kohli - 36.45

rahane - 29.6

pant - 27

jadeja - 30.66 

ashwin - 25.77

bhuvi - 27.44 (wow)

shami - 8.15 in england. however 35 in india rofl

ishant - 5.94. dreadful

bumrah - 2. lmao

umesh  - never batted in england

 

now bowling attack

bhuvi - 26 (world class in swing conditions. will be badly missed)

umesh - actually averages 25. only one game though 

shami - average 47. worst. should not play in swing conditions. he is an out an out hit the deck bowler who excels in bouncy wickets or asian wickets. he is not able to bowl with duke ball. play siraj

siraj - he is a must with dukes. his first class record vs england in england is class. sub 23. 

ishant - 33.90. so much for him being top tier in england. he only does well in australia, nz and south africa. not england but still better than wagner and southee. 

bumrah - class. 25.

ashwin - 32.92 very good for spinner

jadeja - 42. but jaddu is in his prime now though. 

 

 

 

overall the bowling is actually very close. maybe even slight edge to india in swing conditions as southee and wagner havent been great there in english conditions. indian bowling is the best all condition attack.

 

our batting vs swing is woeful. dreadful. pitiful, 

 

so remember if we lose in england its always cause of our woeful batting. never bowling. 

 

i am very worried about our batting. if pant and rohit fire we may win this. ofcourse if we win the toss, we should win. if we lose the toss, i think it all comes down to pant and rohit plus bumrah or siraj magic. if n.z wins the toss 60 40 n.z

if india wins the toss 60 40 india.

 

 

india averages 24 in batting based on the stats of 10 players that are likely to play in england 

n.z averages 30 from the 8 that have played in england. 

 

common opponent being england. ofcourse n.z never played vs curran in his prime though which we did. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Jay

[Jay]

indian fans have this very awful bad habit of overrating our batsmen in sena and underrating our actual world class bowlers who have done nothing but carry this team. 

 

our bowling is world class and easily the best in the world overall. even in swing conditions they averaged 29 overall with the correct selections in england vs n.z's 33. 

 

our batting is piss poor in swing and that is our weakness. we need to fix that issue with some county game practice. 

[Vijy]

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

indian fans have this very awful bad habit of overrating our batsmen in sena and underrating our actual world class bowlers who have done nothing but carry this team. 

 

our bowling is world class and easily the best in the world overall. even in swing conditions they averaged 29 overall with the correct selections in england vs n.z's 33. 

 

our batting is piss poor in swing and that is our weakness. we need to fix that issue with some county game practice. 

I don't think we have any practice games (beyond that game with Ind A I think), whereas NZ will have lots of exposure to the conditions.

[test fan]

People forget that WTC final will take palce at Southampton not at lord's. Southampton pitch is well suited for us bcz of driest & warmest gorund in England  .NZ Record in England is worse than us .they only won a single test after 1999. 

[WC2011INDIA]

Just be glad they have qualified for WTC final. Lulli's luck + IPL fatigue + lack of test match practice + NZ showing the Indians their auk at in world tournaments = disaster. The so called Asian century will end with a long smelly fart. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

9 hours ago, Khota said:

With proper planning

Key phrase.  

 

With IPL finishing so close to the WTC date and bubbles and loss of practice time ....

[BacktoCricaddict]

8 minutes ago, test fan said:

People forget that WTC final will take palce at Southampton not at lord's. Southampton pitch is well suited for us bcz of driest & warmest gorund in England  .NZ Record in England is worse than us .they only won a single test after 1999. 

Oh ... you may be right.

 

https://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/116525/southampton-frontrunner-to-host-wtc-final-cricbuzzcom

[Jay]

9 minutes ago, WC2011INDIA said:

Just be glad they have qualified for WTC final. Lulli's luck + IPL fatigue + lack of test match practice + NZ showing the Indians their auk at in world tournaments = disaster. The so called Asian century will end with a long smelly fart. 

no offence but why are you always so negative? i agree about luck part with tosses. lack of test practice but surely law of averages will have to tilt towards india's favour at some point. We have always been top contenders. kohli is bound to win something at some point. if he cant win with this beast of a side then he should truly consider becoming a hermit and quite cricket. 

[Lone Wolf]

39 minutes ago, test fan said:

People forget that WTC final will take palce at Southampton not at lord's. Southampton pitch is well suited for us bcz of driest & warmest gorund in England  .NZ Record in England is worse than us .they only won a single test after 1999. 

Rose bowl has spun indeed but we have lost both of our games there in 2014 & 2018.  I think it will be perfectly neutral as NZ won't enjoy this as much as Lords.  Just hope it's not Manchester as it is also in the fray..  Goddamn paradise for swing bowlers. 

[test fan]

4 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Rose bowl has spun indeed but we have lost both of our games there in 2014 & 2018.  I think it will be perfectly neutral as NZ won't enjoy this as much as Lords.  Just hope it's not Manchester as it is also in the fray..  Goddamn paradise for swing bowlers. 

Most likey Southampton .last time when we toured we lost  only by 60 runs .Ali take 9 wickets in that test match so spin is definitely Play big part .

[GeeGaw]

India should probably forfeit and save the airfare money according to icf brain trust. 

[neel roy]

55 minutes ago, test fan said:

Most likey Southampton .last time when we toured we lost  only by 60 runs .Ali take 9 wickets in that test match so spin is definitely Play big part .

Forget even that,9 months ago West Indies beat England in Southampton  that too after as usual England won the toss and batted first.. so toss is not an important factor as wicket stays true till day 4/5

Edited March 7, 2021 by neel roy

[nitinbwj]

Relax !! Just because they  have performed well against us previously doesn’t mean they will walk all over us again. Who knows they might get hammered by Eng badly. How would that boost their confidence? I have full faith in this team. If India can negate that swing and seam hour and don’t lose wickets in a bunch, we’ll be ok. Shastri will have to plan the right team at the right time. 
 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by nitinbwj

[Vijy]

52 minutes ago, neel roy said:

Forget even that,9 months ago West Indies beat England in Southampton  that too after as usual England won the toss and batted first.. so toss is not an important factor as wicket stays true till day 4/5

that was almost equally due to eng being highly complacent and arrogant. but I agree that southampton is a venue that should help us to an extent. our spinners are vastly better than NZ (whose "spin" is much poorer than both eng and Oz)

[chewy]

India bowling much superior than NZ bowling even in English conditions. Besides if played in Lords than swing and seam wont be much issue.

 

India just need to scrap together 250-300 first innings.

 

I don't think NZ will score big against this Ind bowling.

 

Also hope Bharat Arun and Indian think tank monitor NZ's two games vs Eng before final to plan properly for NZ key men.

[Khota]

6 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Key phrase.  

 

With IPL finishing so close to the WTC date and bubbles and loss of practice time ....

I think IPL will fine tune their skills. It is India's to lose. I just dont think NZ is good enough to beat India.

[rangeelaraja]

2 minutes ago, Khota said:

I think IPL will fine tune their skills. It is India's to lose. I just dont think NZ is good enough to beat India.

A T20 tournament fine tuning test cricket skills ?