How do NZ gun bowlers ( Wagner+ Boult + Southee ) compare to ( Siraj+ Bumrah+Ishant) in English conditions ? Plus - reasons to be pessimistic about our chances against NZ in the WTC final

[rangeelaraja]

1) Our utter collapse at the hands of the NZ seam attack in 2019 WC Semis

2) Then the 2-0 defeat in NZ conditions that are quite similar to English conditions

3) The fact that NZ literally get the best preparation for the WTC Final preparation with 2 test matches against England

4) A long @$$ IPL season for us prior to the WTC Finals 

5) NZ have long been the boogie team for us in ICC events

6) RAT's record as player and captain in ICC events and when the going gets tough..

 

 

....all these collectively make me a bit pessimistic about our chances against NZ in the finals.
 

NZ with their meagre resources is a very methodical team with a very scientific approach to the game.

 

They always raise their game in big matches.

 

Our pace attack needs to be in red hot form and our batting needs to be infinitely better.

 

I wonder in good form how do  NZ gun bowlers ( Wagner+ Boult + Southee ) compare to ( Siraj+ Bumrah+Ishant) in English conditions

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[Vijy]

18 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

1) Our utter collapse at the hands of the NZ seam attack in 2019 WC Semis

2) Then the 2-0 defeat in NZ conditions that are quite similar to English conditions

3) The fact that NZ literally get the best preparation for the WTC Final preparation with 2 test matches against England

4) A long @$$ IPL season for us prior to the WTC Finals 

5) NZ have long been the boogie team for us in ICC events

6) RAT's record as player and captain in ICC events and when the going gets tough..

 

 

....all these collectively make me a bit pessimistic about our chances against NZ in the finals.
 

NZ with their meagre resources is a very methodical team with a very scientific approach to the game.

 

They always raise their game in big matches.

 

Our pace attack needs to be in red hot form and our batting needs to be infinitely better.

 

I wonder in good form how do  NZ gun bowlers ( Wagner+ Boult + Southee ) compare to ( Siraj+ Bumrah+Ishant) in English conditions

 

 

 

I have many of the same concerns you have: mostly the fact that NZ will have prior prep, we will be exhausted after long IPL season and then playing without prior practice. Moreover, I do think their bowling lineup is more suitable to eng conditions than ours.

 

I am expecting NZ to play a 4 man pace attack in seaming conditions: boult+southee+wagner+jamieson with santner easily batting at 7 (watling at 6), jamieson at 7, with the others at 8-11. If I compare this attack with ours, which might be 4 pacer+spinner, the prospects are not great. I am going to assume we have pandya as the seam AR for now. here is my assessment, assuming everyone is in form.

 

bumrah > boult

southee = siraj/shami

wagner > ishant

jamieson > jaddu/ashwin

pandya > santner

 

overall, I would say that our bowling is weaker. our batting on current form is definitely much weaker. I think NZ is quite well-suited for seaming conditions. looking at top 8, this is my assessment assuming everyone's showing good form.

 

latham > rohit [in seaming conditions, not across all pitches]

gill/klr > blundell

kane > pujara

kohli > ross taylor

nicholls > rahane/vihari

pant > watling

jaddu > santner

pandya > jamieson

 

hence, if our batting fires, we can win this. but this is a big "if"

Edited March 6, 2021 by Vijy

[rangeelaraja]

^ I don't agree with Southee > Siraj.

 

Siraj is an unknown commodity still. He gets into a good line and length very quickly and has this knack of getting the ball to jag in from a good length.

 

I think if we are to win - Siraj would have been a standout bowler for us. Bumrah will be consistent.  Ishant i don't have much hopes from -he is just a brainless trundler now.

 

I would take Umesh Yadav instead of Ishant, if i had anything to do with the selection.

Edited March 6, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[Jay]

If India can play Cummins well, Jamieson is a nobody. He will get worked out. 

 

Wagner is a trusting one trick pony. He is not that great. Just need to gameplan vs him. Left handers can obliterate him. 

 

Survive new ball vs Boult and Southee. 

 

 

Bhuvi/shardul 

Ishant

Bumrah

Siraj

Is a lethal combo and every bit as good as kiwi attack in English Condtions. 

 

 

 

[Vijy]

Just now, rangeelaraja said:

^ I don't agree with Southee > Siraj.

 

Siraj is an unknown commodity still. He gets into a good line and length very quickly and has this knack of getting the ball to jag in from a good length.

 

I think if we are to win - Siraj would have been a standout bowler for us. Bumrah will be consistent.  Ishant i don't have much hopes from -he is just a brainless trundler now.

 

I would take Umesh Yadav instead of Ishant, if i had anything to do with the selection.

umesh is not well suited for overseas even despite his improvement. shami is, however, the possibility for third seamer. btw, since my post was long, I had made some minor edits even before I saw your post. I did end up agreeing that siraj could equal southee.

[rangeelaraja]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

If India can play Cummins well, Jamieson is a nobody. He will get worked out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's not the point. They are different bowlers , different conditions.

 

Our batters now play superbly on pitches that have good pace and bounce - many of them play hook and pull very well. This reflects in the fact that we beat Aus in their backyard in test series both in 2018 and 2020/21.

 

Swing and seam - totally different to pace and bounce.

[Vijy]

Just now, Jay said:

If India can play Cummins well, Jamieson is a nobody. He will get worked out. 

 

Wagner is a trusting one trick pony. He is not that great. Just need to gameplan vs him. Left handers can obliterate him. 

 

Survive new ball vs Boult and Southee. 

 

 

Bhuvi/shardul 

Ishant

Bumrah

Siraj

Is a lethal combo and every bit as good as kiwi attack in English Condtions. 

 

 

 

If Bhuvi is even at 70-80% of what he could offer at peak, I'd play both him and shardul. also lengths the batting a great deal. as it stands, your lineup has 3 bunnies. and I don't think ishant is bowling at the levels we saw earlier; hopefully this will change. I think we should play siraj and bumrah and choose 2 of shardul, bhuvi, shami, ishant, pandya depending on conditions.

 

We should also send a practice team consisting of the following "legendary" red-hot pace quarter: vinny kumar, unadcutter, sid kaul, and mohit sharma.

[rangeelaraja]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

umesh is not well suited for overseas even despite his improvement. shami is, however, the possibility for third seamer. btw, since my post was long, I had made some minor edits even before I saw your post. I did end up agreeing that siraj could equal southee.

 

If not Umesh ,  I would take Shardul in place of Ishant.  Ishant adds no value to the team. Can't field, can't bat and bowls without a heart.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

If India can play Cummins well, Jamieson is a nobody. He will get worked out. 

 

Wagner is a trusting one trick pony. He is not that great. Just need to gameplan vs him. Left handers can obliterate him. 

 

Survive new ball vs Boult and Southee. 

 

 

Bhuvi/shardul 

Ishant

Bumrah

Siraj

Is a lethal combo and every bit as good as kiwi attack in English Condtions. 

 

 

 

jamieson is not as good as cummins in all conditions. but the thing is that the WTC is not taking place at "all conditions" - it's specifically in eng conditions, and jamieson is a handful on such pitches. in fact, in eng, hazelwood or ryan harris are better than pat cummins.

[vvvslaxman]

India vs left arm seamers in final. Don't give me hopes. THey collapse like a deck of cards. Rohit sharma for all his home track dominance he is going to be vulnerable abroad. GIll a compulsive a stroke player will also be vulnerable.  I think Rahul has matured now. I would back him there as opener and push Gill down the order.

[jf1gp_1]

I agree. We have already lost the final and we should declare NZ WT champs. 

[dilliboy]

Will again need a masterclass from Pant or Hitman

[Khota]

People who are pessimistic do not understand sports and will never get it.

 

With proper planning India wins this easily.

[mani sha]

I would play Shami over any bowler as he can get u wickets anytime anywhere . Add bumrah and thakur for swing and batting 

then take ashwin and Jadeja / axar ( in dry pitches ) and Pandya in wet conditions 

 

Pant as keeper 

 

gill sharma Kohli sundar and pujara is my lineup . 
Rahul Is my 6th batter 

 

playing ipl all might help indians . Don’t be pessimistic . Shastri wants to win this one . And Kohli knows will be desperate to prove himself - our biggest advantage will be our all rounders ( pandya Jadeja pant and sundar make a mighty lower middle order ) 

[ShoonyaSifar]

35 minutes ago, Khota said:

People who are pessimistic do not understand sports and will never get it.

 

With proper planning India wins this easily.

Extremely high expectations from a bunch of power hungry authoritarians in our TM. Individual brilliance (by players this TM despises) is keeping us afloat, but these bojos claim all the credit

[Gollum]

100% sure we will see poor selection, for instance Siraj won't play and that is going to be a blunder.

[ash]

I have high hopes on our bowling, it is the batting am worried about. The top 5 has to fire for sure. Like Ashwin said , this is as important as a world cup final, even more maybe. Just wish the top 5 bat like that

[Lone Wolf]

It won't be easy by any means..  I just hope we pick Siraj somehow otherwise we will be outbowled as we have hit the deck bowlers..  Please No Shami Ffs..  No more back off the length rubbish. 

I don't have much hopes from Batting..  Just hoping for a super clutch Pant knock & customary once in a blue moon Rahane knock..  Don't get me started on Pujara

Score 300 somehow I don't care

[prudent_kreeda]

Our main worry will be Batting . Very poor form of the established stars currently , Indian batsmen perform their worst in swing & seam conditions and esp. in  England .

If this is fixed to some extent we can compete.

Though idian batsmen are overall better compared to NZ bats , but in terms of playing swing & seam , NZ bats are much better . That  tilts the scale in NZ favour.

[Lone Wolf]

Both Sundar & Pant to an extent play the ball late..  Even Rohit has started to do that with new ball.  Pujara plays late as well but he has lack of strokes plus timing to score runs on soft wickets.   Rahane Lolli try to go hard most of the time not a smart idea Tbh.  Same with Gill.  Gill can tackle Jamieson though with his high backlift & will adjust to the bounce he gets..  But unlikely he will survive the burst from Boult early. 

Overall a lot has to go right if we win. 

It's a pity Sundar is not an automatic selection..  He could win this for us