Handling top order collapses.

[vvvslaxman]

There is no point in whinging about top order collapses. It is almost like this trend will never stop. So how do you recover from a collapse. That is what they should focus on.  3 wickets first 3 balls. So be it. How do you recover. If you build a team that recover from any collapse we can have  a sniff at world titles.

 

Few examples of how Australia made a come back from completely hopeless situation during 2003 world cup.

 

1) At 84/7 Australia was staring the barrell  - 2003 world cup vs NZ

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-cup-2002-03-61124/australia-vs-new-zealand-5th-super-65279/full-scorecard

 

2)  146/5 Australiw with all main batsmen gone - 2003 world cup vs Pakistan

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-cup-2002-03-61124/australia-vs-pakistan-4th-match-65238/full-scorecard

 

3)  Chasing a modest total Australia was down and out at 135/8 - 2003 world cup vs England

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-cup-2002-03-61124/australia-vs-england-37th-match-65269/full-scorecard

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by vvvslaxman

[wanted_desi]

Rohit, KL and Kohli don’t give me confidence of staying when pressure is on against left arm swing, it is time to change it. Bring in someone else in line up.

[zen]

Probably time to move on from Rohit and Kohli (relics in T20s). Even if early wkts fall and one of these guys is there, chances are that he will eat up many deliveries to make Ind end up with a sub par score. 

[Majestic]

This is why Shreyas and Pant at 4 & 5 is a must for me. They thrive when the early wickets have gone.

[sensible-indian]

Great thread mate.

 

On a sidenote....

 

Did you see who was the hero in 2 of the 3 games listed?

 

Michael Bevan.

 

And these are not even his top memorable knocks lol.

 

Probably the greatest clutch batsman in ODI ever.

 

And people think its an insult to compare him to Dhoni lol.

[vvvslaxman]

31 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Great thread mate.

 

On a sidenote....

 

Did you see who was the hero in 2 of the 3 games listed?

 

Michael Bevan.

 

And these are not even his top memorable knocks lol.

 

Probably the greatest clutch batsman in ODI ever.

 

And people think its an insult to compare him to Dhoni lol.

 

 

He did the same  in1996 world cup semi final vs West Indies. Australia was 15/4  with only Healy and bowlers to come. Up against rampaging Ambrose and Bishop on Mohali wicket.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/wills-world-cup-1995-96-60981/australia-vs-west-indies-2nd-sf-65191/full-scorecard

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by vvvslaxman

[vvvslaxman]

From Indian perspective Dhoni did a few times. This one was memorable although in a losing cause. India was 29/5

 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-india-2012-13-589300/india-vs-pakistan-1st-odi-589308/full-scorecard

 

 

[Try_Ball]

Considering India claims to be number 1 side in the world and a champion team , such level of reliance on the top 3 has been disastrous and isn't a sign for a World number 1 team for sure. 

 

1)  India's batting strength is Top 3 -     Sharma / KL Rahul or Dhawan / Kohli   -   If these get out for under 50 in a T20  - India would struggle to even reach 100 ...  Is this how the best team in the World Plays?   Top tier teams are not so top dependent. India doesn't have a plan B  - If the top  3 are done - Middle and lower order cannot even 50 runs on international stage. 

2)  Batting slots of Number 4 - Number 6    -      A few years ago India used to have -  Yuvraj , Irfan P ,  Yusuf P ,  Suresh Raina , Dhoni  etc.    -  Who do we have now ?  -   Surya / Pant, Ishan ? Maybe Shreyas -   Best teams out there tend to have a solid 4-6  - If you have a collapse then 4 to 6 give you stability and can change gears as well  -  How much stability does the current 4 to 6 provide ?  They won't even cross 50-60 runs combined.   When the Aussies were on the top  -  Even though they had Gilchrist /Hayden/ Ponting on the top for being a top heavy team  - They had the stable middle and lower order  -  Symonds / Damien Martyn / Bevan etc.   

 

What is the NCA doing -   Why do we have an abundance of openers and Top 3 in the system  -    Sharma/Dhawan/ Rahul/ V Iyer / Gaikwad /Paddikal / Kohli / Shreyas  etc    ,  Where is the middle and lower order batsman ?   -   Pant and Pandya ? That's about it.  Why are these positions not being targeted as a high priority and discover Yuvraj mould of cricketers that can rotate the strike / Smash 6 sixers in a over and can bowl handy 3-4 overs as well.   Until the Middle and lower order batting  - From Number 4 to 6 are fixed - this team would never be a top team 

[vvvslaxman]

Most recently i loved the way how Deepak Chahar finished the game against SL. Very gritty knock.

[sensible-indian]

25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

He did the same  in1996 world cup semi final vs West Indies. Australia was 15/4  with only Healy and bowlers to come. Up against rampaging Ambrose and Bishop on Mohali wicket.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/wills-world-cup-1995-96-60981/australia-vs-west-indies-2nd-sf-65191/full-scorecard

 

 

Yeah..that was an insane game.

 

Bringing Aus back from a dead and buried position. Incredible mental strength.

 

Bevan did it in 1999 SF against SA too.

 

Top scored.

 

Stayed till the very end.

Edited October 25, 2021 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

From Indian perspective Dhoni did a few times. This one was memorable although in a losing cause. India was 29/5

 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-india-2012-13-589300/india-vs-pakistan-1st-odi-589308/full-scorecard

 

 

This was one of Dhonis greatest knock.

 

I would call it his greatest from a technical perspective.

 

The way he planned it out and executed it was unbelievable.

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

This was one of Dhonis greatest knock.

 

I would call it his greatest from a technical perspective.

 

The way he planned it out and executed it was unbelievable.

 

Condition was highly favorable for seam bowlers.

[SK_IH]

In T20s, you have back your game & keep targeting the par score despite losing wickets. We saw that in the game between SL & Netherlands where SL had worse start but Hasaranga was still relentless.Remember that semi final match between Ind-Aus at Durban, India at one stage were going run a ball till 10 overs mark & then Yuvi-Robbie exploded. That is quintessential T20 cricket.

Indian batsman especially Virat was seeking last dash & in the process didn't deliver that as well. If Hafeez was brought in to bowl at leftie Pant, why couldn't Virat upset his line & length by attacking & taking him out of the game.The orthodoxy of Indian batsmen means the bowlers are rarely made to change their plans & lengths. Pant, SKY & Rahul are only 3 batsmen who have this mindset, however even Pant's T20 game seems to have declined.

[puneet28]

Why do we haven't addressed the problem against left arm swing bowlers? Our famous collapses are against left arm seamers only

1. 2015 WC Semi-final - Mitchell Starc
2. 2016 Asia Cup - M Amir
3. 2017 CT Final - M Amir
4. 2019 WC Semi-final - Trent Boult (though M Henry started the damage)
5. 2021 WT20 vs Pakistan - Shaheen Afridi

These are recent exploits by left arm bowlers. We struggled against them in 2012-2013 as well.

It is fair to say that 140+ left arm inswing is difficult to handle but having a recurring problem is not a good sign for best players. What has our batting coaches done to address this? I am surprised no one from journalists have asked this to Kohli or team management.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[GautiMaan]

Depth would help,go the csk way and have guys like Shardul and Deepak Chahar to provide some insurance.

Bhuvi at 8 in the last game trying to nudge singles in the last over was comical, are we some associate side..even those guys have some lower order muscle these days

[Try_Ball]

Rohit Sharma when asked to open against Trent Boult when playing against NZ ..

 

[rkt.india]

T20 cricket is a game of top 4. More often than not teams will struggle if the top 4 don't do enough. We can't compare it to ODIs. You need your best hitters at 3-4.

[Pollack]

2 hours ago, SK_IH said:

In T20s, you have back your game & keep targeting the par score despite losing wickets. We saw that in the game between SL & Netherlands where SL had worse start but Hasaranga was still relentless.Remember that semi final match between Ind-Aus at Durban, India at one stage were going run a ball till 10 overs mark & then Yuvi-Robbie exploded. That is quintessential T20 cricket.

Indian batsman especially Virat was seeking last dash & in the process didn't deliver that as well. If Hafeez was brought in to bowl at leftie Pant, why couldn't Virat upset his line & length by attacking & taking him out of the game.The orthodoxy of Indian batsmen means the bowlers are rarely made to change their plans & lengths. Pant, SKY & Rahul are only 3 batsmen who have this mindset, however even Pant's T20 game seems to have declined.

Pant has the intent but he is struggling with timing.

[vvvslaxman]

24 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

T20 cricket is a game of top 4. More often than not teams will struggle if the top 4 don't do enough. We can't compare it to ODIs. You need your best hitters at 3-4.

 

Most of our recent collapses were in one dayers until this one.  Second of all right teams handle collapses

 

From 19/3 in 4 overs to 160.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-united-arab-emirates-2015-16-902607/england-vs-pakistan-1st-t20i-902649/full-scorecard

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Most recently  India recovered from 88/6 in NZ thanks to ungetouttable Manish :)

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-in-new-zealand-2019-20-1187673/new-zealand-vs-india-4th-t20i-1187680/full-scorecard

 

 @maniac