What value does India (therefore the subcontinent) offer?

[zen]

1988 Seoul Olympics. Somewhere in Gujarat a dreamy gullible school kid is all pumped up at the prospect of watching his first Olympic event. Throughout the event he remains glued to the TV. Anticipating his country to win a few medals. India come back with 0 medal. Angry and disappointed, the kid writes a 5 pages plan on how to improve India chances at the Olympics. The plan includes giving sports a priority and having centers in each district to scout and train talent in various disciplines. He mails the plans to Indian Express and Times of India, reading every page of those two papers everyday to see his plan published. Nothing happens. 

 

1990 per capita income. China approx. $318, India approx. $368. 

 

1991 Economic Liberalisation. A big event for India. The school boy dreams about a country with immense potential being on the path to becoming a developed nation in the near future. 

 

1992 Babri Masjid demolition. Not a proud moment but the teenager saw a silver lining - the promised land for the Hindus and other native religious groups, whose culture has been influenced by foreign religions. 

 

1998 Pokhran - II. India is listed among nuclear powers. 

 

 

...

 

2021 Zero. A population that is the country's biggest enemy, destroys whatever it touches - the River Systems for e.g. Comparisons drawn with Pakistan and reliance on irrelevant metrics such as GDP to feel better. Bravado over a brawl at the border with China when in an actual war, China could carpet bomb India to the stone age ... Corruption, Pollution, Population, Politic ... More divisions in the country than unity with a niche sport like cricket serving to channelize patriotism ... In short, a country that has probably gone south. A Bombay in a 1950s Bollywood film can appear better than in today's film. 

 

 

The question - What value does India (and consequently the subcon) offer? 

 

 

Today, India provides only one value - a center of an ancient culture and native religions. Take those away, the region is barebones. Along with culture and native religions, its landforms - mountains, rivers, deserts, oceans, and so on, and the flora and the fauna. Let's not sacrifice these for anything.

[Mariyam]

@zen You were a teenager in 1992?

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@zen You were a teenager in 1992?

 

Yeah ... and in school!

Edited November 16, 2021 by zen

[coffee_rules]

33 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

@zen You were a teenager in 1992?

That’s what you take from all that he has written? 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, zen said:

1988 Seoul Olympics. Somewhere in Gujarat a dreamy gullible school kid is all pumped up at the prospect of watching his first Olympic event. Throughout the event he remains glued to the TV. Anticipating his country to win a few medals. India come back with 0 medal. Angry and disappointed, the kid writes a 5 pages plan on how to improve India chances at the Olympics. The plan includes giving sports a priority and having centers in each district to scout and train talent in various disciplines. He mails the plans to Indian Express and Times of India, reading every page of those two papers everyday to see his plan published. Nothing happens. 

 

1990 per capita income. China approx. $318, India approx. $368. 

 

1991 Economic Liberalisation. A big event for India. The school boy dreams about a country with immense potential being on the path to becoming a developed nation in the near future. 

 

1992 Babri Masjid demolition. Not a proud moment but the teenager saw a silver lining - the promised land for the Hindus and other native religious groups, whose culture has been influenced by foreign religions. 

 

1998 Pokhran - II. India is listed among nuclear powers. 

 

 

...

 

2021 Zero. A population that is the country's biggest enemy, destroys whatever it touches - the River Systems for e.g. Comparisons drawn with Pakistan and reliance on irrelevant metrics such as GDP to feel better. Bravado over a brawl at the border with China when in an actual war, China could carpet bomb India to the stone age ... Corruption, Pollution, Population, Politic ... More divisions in the country than unity with a niche sport like cricket serving to channelize patriotism ... In short, a country that has probably gone south. A Bombay in a 1950s Bollywood film can appear better than in today's film. 

 

 

The question - What value does India (and consequently the subcon) offer? 

 

 

Today, India provides only one value - a center of an ancient culture and native religions. Take those away, the region is barebones. Along with culture and native religions, its landforms - mountains, rivers, deserts, oceans, and so on, and the flora and the fauna. Let's not sacrifice these for anything.

That’s a very grim picture of India you paint. A lot has changed to the better. But , every country need not give anything to anybody. It is up to the citizenry to decide what is their destiny. India has no civil war tearing its population apart. Relatively peaceful since about 10 years with no terrorist activities. Some priorities are set for certain ideologues since 2014, but a lot of people oppose any communal politics. 
 

You have always been complaining about population, how can Govt cease the growth in population? A lot of people think their sole purpose in life is to get married and have children. The fertility rates are getting lower. The population has to be managed with education and infrastructure and security of jobs. Volume of people working and earning also help in GDP

[zen]

30 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

You have always been complaining about population, how can Govt cease the growth in population? A lot of people think their sole purpose in life is to get married and have children. The fertility rates are getting lower. The population has to be managed with education and infrastructure and security of jobs. Volume of people working and earning also help in GDP

a) Why would a sensible population need govt to control population? b) if the population is not sensible, govt (not matter which party) needs to step in to limit the number or children and/or have a system where ppl need to pay to have more than one child, while creating a trust to help in education, healthcare, etc. for all children.  One of the most sad sight is to see a sparsely dressed dirty kid sitting near a pile of garbage, suggesting a grim future (when machines/robots are expected to take over many jobs). A criminal act by the parents. 
 

As for GDP, even Pak and BD can increase their GDP through population and claim being a bigger economy than x (we do not want such population growth in those countries). Need to focus on GDP per capita!

Edited November 16, 2021 by zen

[ravishingravi]

 I am struggling to grasp the thread of this question. It could be a case of mindset at this point which can happen to most of us at different points. But I see fairly loose handpicked moments to arrive at the question. 
 

But if I were to ask this question to myself and give a generic answer. The answer would be that I don’t care. India shouldn’t worry how it’s valued. The market potential is so incredible that world us headed here. It’s should find it’s voice and define peace, plurality, spirituality, development and all other western archetypes and frameworks. Revivalism that we are witnessing with advent of technology and civilizational leader offers incredible opportunity to find more about ourselves. 
 

I am super excited for what awaits us with some underlying risks which we need to manage. We are at a very tentative stage of our evolution. Another 5 years and leadership choices during this period will be critical to see the trajectory it takes. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

The answer would be that I don’t care. India shouldn’t worry how it’s valued.

Why would India not worry about the value it creates not only for itself but also others?  
 

11 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

The market potential is so incredible that world us headed here. 

That is not unique to India. Even Africa has a huge market potential. Many countries  that are underdeveloped have a good market potential as things can be developed there. 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Why would India not worry about the value it creates not only for itself but also others?  

 It is for India to worry about. Soft power is a collective responsibility. Instead of being a judge, if you are an activist lawyer, you decide what the knowledge of 1.3b is worth

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, zen said:

a) Why would a sensible population need govt to control population? b) if the population is not sensible, govt (not matter which party) needs to step in to limit the number or children and/or have a system where ppl need to pay to have more than one child, while creating a trust to help in education, healthcare, etc. for all children.  One of the most sad sight is to see a sparsely dressed dirty kid sitting near a pile of garbage, suggesting a grim future (when machines/robots are expected to take over many jobs). A criminal act by the parents. 
 

You have a BBC or western lens on population. It is a societal problem. China clamped on one child policy to curb growth in the 80s and 90s and now realize that the aging population is growing, they need young population to grow to take care of them. I hate people who crib about population growth without looking its consequences. 
 

What do you want govts to do? Be fascist like Chinese? With modern education and cultural changes , the west doesn’t want to create more kids, how do you propose india change such a mindset?

[Singh bling]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

A lot of people think their sole purpose in life is to get married and have children.

For majority of Indians children especially boys are still best old age insurance . No what propaganda people do. Unless people will see that Government can take care of old people , provide them security and medical care they will continue to have kids.

[zen]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

 It is for India to worry about. Soft power is a collective responsibility. Instead of being a judge, if you are an activist lawyer, you decide what the knowledge of 1.3b is worth

 

 

Ind has no meaningful new/different knowledge apart from already identified in OP - culture and religion 

 

In fact, the country is undisciplined, easily corruptible, polluted, and so on ... That has been the case since a long time 

 

 

55 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

You have a BBC or western lens on population. It is a societal problem. China clamped on one child policy to curb growth in the 80s and 90s and now realize that the aging population is growing, they need young population to grow to take care of them. I hate people who crib about population growth without looking its consequences. 

 

China issues are irrelevant to India's population growth where it is not only slated to overtake China, but also has a large proportion of young people. 

 

I understand that the population growth rate is slowing down but Ind's cup could already be overflowing 

 

 

Quote

What do you want govts to do? Be fascist like Chinese? With modern education and cultural changes , the west doesn’t want to create more kids, how do you propose india change such a mindset?

 

Modern education has been there since a long time and so are the stories and hopes ... I wrote something in my last post that could change behavior 

 

 

The discussion here also does not answer what value India brings (I wrote where it adds value from my PoV in the OP) 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by zen

[coffee_rules]

29 minutes ago, zen said:

 

 

Ind has no meaningful new/different knowledge apart from already identified in OP - culture and religion 

 

In fact, the country is undisciplined, easily corruptible, polluted, and so on ... That has been the case since a long time 

 

 

 

China issues are irrelevant to India's population growth where it is not only slated to overtake China, but also has a large proportion of young people. 

 

I understand that the population growth rate is slowing down but Ind's cup could already be overflowing 

 

 

 

Modern education has been there since a long time and so are the stories and hopes ... I wrote something in my last post that could change behavior 

 

 

The discussion here also does not answer what value India brings (I wrote where it adds value from my PoV in the OP) 

 

 

you are only listing the problems, offering no solution. What should the govt do to solve the population problem?

We all know the effect, time to discuss the cause and solution! Otherwise it is only ranting. 

[Adi_91]

What India has to offer?

 

Well, for starters India has a young population (2/3rds if I am not mistaken) in my age group driving a country that came back up much faster than the doomsday sayers were predicting about its economy post the start of pandemic. This country called India has defied odds ever since Independence. It had no business to be cohesive given how shamelessly the invaders had created societal divisions. But, India survived and we are still here, very much on path to becoming an economic superpower (not being patriotic but facts show this). 

 

India was a poster boy of third world poverty back in 1947 (Indians below my age were dying of hunger, Life expectancy of about 27 years). It had no future, no takers, nobody paying heed to its problems. Now, this India is capable of not only standing on its own, but helping others in need. Case in point, 2004 Boxing Day Tsunami, India helped her neighbours grapple with the horrific day with so many lives lost. This is called LEADERSHIP and standing up for neighbors in a hour of crisis when its own house was suffering with loss of lives. Something some big countries of the west failed to show during this pandemic even as India was battling a second and more deadly wave of pandemic.

 

Sure, India is polluted, air is filthy in various cities. So, what do we do? I say, we tell people to do their bit as much as we tend to blame our politicians. India is built everyday by its wonderful citizens, businessmen who have the best interests for the country. I have seen India grow, thrive and its people still staying humble. Can't say the same about some rich countries of the west who are busy spreading infection and polluting the world faster than an average Indian does.

 

I am not intending to compare, but this pandemic has exposed the hollow growth story of the western civilization and how they can crumble. India on the other hand, has shown the world what leadership of the future can be. Creating a world which is far more sustainable has been India's mantra. I have seen at a very young age what the west is and how they flatter to deceive. They are the ones who should be questioned as to what they offer to the world as they seem busy spreading the virus around and having no control over the current climate crisis.

 

 

[zen]

Just now, coffee_rules said:

you are only listing the problems, offering no solution. What should the govt do to solve the population problem?

We all know the effect, time to discuss the cause and solution! Otherwise it is only ranting. 

 

As I wrote earlier: " ... govt (not matter which party) needs to step in to limit the number or children and/or have a system where ppl need to pay to have more than one child, while creating a trust to help in education, healthcare, etc. for all children.  One of the most sad sight is to see a sparsely dressed dirty kid sitting near a pile of garbage, suggesting a grim future (when machines/robots are expected to take over many jobs). A criminal act by the parents."

 

I see that there is a Population Control Bill proposed. If I am not wrong, having a small family is linked to patriotism. 

 

Controlling population is only one part of the equation. Having a responsible and accountable population is another ... One of the best ways for India to drive growth (and for a select few to get rich) is through infrastructure development (it would be playing catch-up), but this also would create its own set of problems (which needs an essay). 

 

Such things can be carried out in many developing countries, therefore not unique and mostly playing catch up,. India is already a burden due to its population explosion. 

 

 

The topic is on what value India offers - its unique culture, the "promised" land for the native religions, and its landforms, and flora and fauna. People come and go. Rich can become poor. Poor can become rich. Successes become failures. Failures become successes. But what should remains is a responsible and accountable culture with ancient roots (1000s of years of history). 

 

With the problems that India has, along with the desire to ape the west and an irresponsible and unaccountable population with more tools at its disposal, a lot of things can be at stake where one could potentially see a different India in future (again an essay can be written here). 2021 is zero and the reminder - "Let's not sacrifice these for anything." Read the OP again!

 

 

[Adi_91]

To add to my previous thoughts, one should understand the psyche of Indians. We learnt the values as seen from the prism of the west. It was in a way neo-colonialism where the invaders had left, but left a population who had decreased feeling of self worth and a sense of inferiority. It reflected in our achievements in Sports, especially Olympics. An Indian athlete basically never believed he/she can win a medal (or maybe even anything or felt laggard to even try).

 

The new generation (millennials like me and many millions of Indians) are a beacon of hope in that we talk about the future and are excited about it. We no longer carry this sense of not feeling worthy or comparing how developed countries vs India without rationally understanding where India has come from. Unfortunately, our schooling system is also to blame where history is diluted to a large extent to almost give a free pass to the brutality of the past. I was taught how great the rulers were without instilling the knowledge what they offered that stands today in our society.

 

And fast forward to our media and international media, who can hype all other countries as if they are some civilization and India is condemned to be a backward country. The international media is far more vicious in its criticism of India especially as India is emerging as one of the fastest growing economies. Some of them even go to the extent of exploiting this weakness among Indians to show how inferior they are by portraying the poorer regions of the country, the poor people (agreed still in millions). All this is designed to ensure the inferiority feeling is reminded to Indians (when they actually are not) and to depict a very sorry image of the country in front of westerners. 

 

I have data to back how valuable an Indian and indeed even India is not just to their country, but to the world. We have a low per capita GDP among G20 countries, but we also have the lowest per capita carbon footprint. Why is nobody talking about the latter? Is this not of value as much as per capita income and GDP?

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Adi_91

[zen]

@Adi_91 Some good points! ... Note that this is an introspection topic. We are not too concerned with how good or bad others are. ... Many of the things that people advertise about India have been said since time immemorial. When I was in India, I was accepted to two MBA programs in Europe - IE in Spain and Theseus in France. In one of my essays I had written (still remember) - "India is a country fueled by entrepreneurial energy ...(painted a great picture)". On another occasion when I was in Europe, I told folks out there that Gujarat is like Switzerland of India (to imply that what Switzerland is in Europe, Gujarat is in India) only to see the Godhra riots play out on TV  

 

If we introspect, we know where we have to improve. India has a fractured healthcare system (Oxygen shortage during COVID, currently only 26-27% in India are fully vaccinated against COVID. For reference US has 59% fully vaccinated. This is in % so Ind has more ppl does not apply). The river systems are in a pathetic shape (see what we have turned Ganges into). Corruption is widespread. And so on. 

 

Many of the things that India can say, Pak, BD and SL can say that too. While people continue to both ape and impress west (FDI) to talk about GDP (a western metric), countries like Bhutan have moved to Gross Happiness Index. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by zen

[sarcastic]

8 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@zen You were a teenager in 1992?

So what about it? So many ICFers were teenagers then and some later on in late 90's or noughties.

I think we also have some ICFers posting here and born after 1995 too.

[Adi_91]

25 minutes ago, zen said:

@Adi_91 Some good points! ... Note that this is an introspection topic. We are not too concerned with how good or bad others are. ... Many of the things that people advertise about India have been said since time immemorial. When I was in India, I was accepted to two MBA programs in Europe - IE in Spain and Theseus in France. In one of my essays I had written (still remember) - "India is a country fueled by entrepreneurial energy ...(painted a great picture)". On another occasion when I was in Europe, I told folks out there that Gujarat is like Switzerland of India (to imply that what Switzerland is in Europe, Gujarat is in India) only to see the Godhra riots play out on TV  

 

If we introspect, we know where we have to improve. India has a fractured healthcare system (Oxygen shortage during COVID, currently only 26-27% in India are fully vaccinated against COVID. For reference US has 59% fully vaccinated. This is in % so Ind has more ppl does not apply). The river systems are in a pathetic shape (see what we have turned Ganges into). Corruption is widespread. And so on. 

 

Many of the things that India can say, Pak, BD and SL can say that too. While people continue to both ape and impress west (FDI) to talk about GDP (a western metric), countries like Bhutan have moved to Gross Happiness Index. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@zen I totally agree with the points you have made. I am saying that if we need to move on, we cannot dwell about the past. We had a tough period even after independence and some horrific disasters happened in my life time already (even excluding this pandemic). Despite all the corruption and nonsense that goes around sometimes, I am still optimistic as the young people of this country will now drive it forward.

 

The events of the second wave were devastating for India as it was for the US where I saw the tragedy unfold last year during winter. No country (rich or poor) can take on this virus without any protection from a vaccine. Unfortunately, the second wave came when India had only started vaccination and the first wave was mild, so this was always going to happen. The medical infrastructure has improved leaps and bounds in India (at least in the major cities). Sure, there is plenty of work ahead to do a lot more. And this country moved tons and tons of oxygen even during the tough time of the second wave. Even that needs to be put into perspective as much as we remember the failure to procure oxygen in the first place. When crisis hit, India hit back and showed the world that it can overcome it. It is the Indian people who did it as with least help from our political class.

 

I lost few of my close friends' family members, so this one was personal for me as it was for many I am sure. But, look at the way the country bounced back both economically and in vaccination. An average Indian realizes smartly that vaccination is the way to end the pandemic and restore economic growth that India much deserves. The great powers have failed in relation to India when it comes to convincing their population to get vaccinated. We need to appreciate and thank every Indian for protecting themselves and our loved ones. Today, India is still vaccinating faster than most countries (some countries incl US have not gone past 60 % first dose yet!). 

 

Yes, there is corruption, nepotism, pollution and it seems to be all pervasive at times. But, the recent events in India instill confidence in me that if every Indian works hard and realizes her/his true potential, then the possibilities of success are sky high. As a young and proud Indian, I am very hopeful that the best days are ahead of us. I am sure you have the best interests of India too in your mind and I respect your views as much as I disagree to the outlook.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Adi_91

[zen]

22 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

 

@zen I totally agree with the points you have made. I am saying that if we need to move on, we cannot dwell about the past. We had a tough period even after independence and some horrific disasters happened in my life time already (even excluding this pandemic). Despite all the corruption and nonsense that goes around sometimes, I am still optimistic as the young people of this country will not drive it forward.

 

The events of the second wave were devastating for India as it was for the US where I saw the tragedy unfold last year during winter. No country (rich or poor) can take on this virus without any protection from a vaccine. Unfortunately, the second wave came when India had only started vaccination and the first wave was mild, so this was always going to happen. The medical infrastructure has improved leaps and bounds in India (at least in the major cities). Sure, there is plenty of work ahead to do a lot more. And this country moved tons and tons of oxygen even during the tough time of the second wave. Even that needs to be put into perspective as much as we remember the failure to procure oxygen in the first place. When crisis hit, India hit back and showed the world that it can overcome it. It is the Indian people who did it as with least help from our political class.

 

I lost few of my close friends' family members, so this one was personal for me as it was for many I am sure. But, look at the way the country bounced back both economically and in vaccination. An average Indian realizes smartly that vaccination is the way to end the pandemic and restore economic growth that India much deserves. The great powers have failed in relation to India when it comes to convincing their population to get vaccinated. We need to appreciate and thank every Indian for protecting themselves and our loved ones. Today, India is still vaccinating faster than most countries (some countries incl US have not gone past 60 % first dose yet!). 

 

Yes, there is corruption, nepotism, pollution and it seems to be all pervasive at times. But, the recent events in India instill confidence in me that if every Indian works hard and realizes her/his true potential, then the possibilities of success are sky high. As a young and proud Indian, I am very hopeful that the best days are ahead of us. I am sure you have the best interests of India too in your mind and I respect your views as much as I disagree to the outlook.

 

 

 

First of all, sorry to hear about the loss of your family and friends due to Covid. That was a pathetic phase. 

 

I like your optimism. As I said, once people like me were like that too. But the roots itself are not strong as the population can lack discipline and accountability, and be too concerned about convenience and self interest. Having visited many countries, you can say many things about it based on a) cleanliness, and b) sports (will delve into when I am in mood for it). A country that cannot even keep itself clean (again Ganga), where law and order takes a back seat, and where bribe is a way of life, a lot needs to change before optimism kicks in. 

 

We can talk about our difficult past. Difficulties are not unique to India. Many countries have been destroyed but rebuilt themselves. Israel is at war almost every day.  

 

I am not interested in India being a great economic and/or military superpower (it means zilch if the population continues to destroy the country). If that happens, great. If not, no big deal. My vision for India is that of a country with disciplined and accountable population, a clean and green environment, an adequate healthcare and education system, great law and order condition, and more importantly where animals have their mini country. I do not want the land to be overrun by human beings. We do not need to ape west and its standards. Our standards can be derived from our ancient culture. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by zen