Do we have the T20 talent?

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, Singh bling said:

We don't even have talent for IPL. Show me spinner like Rashid Khan that can hit sixes or Hittler that put IPL on fire

Hitler put the world on fire... he was not around when IPL happened

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

We definitely have talent - not for T20s in non-SC conditions, and not for Tests in swinging conditions.

 

Where are the 150+ smashers in T20s? Where are the technically sound openers in Tests? Where are the spinners who can bowl outside SC? Where are the dynamic middle order bats in ODIs? The list goes on.

 

 

Some of the types don't exist because we don't want them. (  Fast scoring batsmen is not the brand of cricket for team India )  Other types don't exist because adapting to 3 different formats messes with the mindset and techniques of players. 

 

 

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Some of the types don't exist because we don't want them. (  Fast scoring batsmen is not the brand of cricket for team India )  Other types don't exist because adapting to 3 different formats messes with the mindset and techniques of players. 

 

 

but we don't even have specialists like other teams do. look at anderson. we don't have a single swing bowler on his level. bumrah is better as an all-conditions pacer, but we lack pure swing bowlers. likewise, we lack proper test spinners like lyon; not just SC bullies like axar and ass-win.

[express bowling]

27 minutes ago, Vijy said:

but we don't even have specialists like other teams do. look at anderson. we don't have a single swing bowler on his level. bumrah is better as an all-conditions pacer, but we lack pure swing bowlers.

 

 

 

We lack proper swing bowlers because we invariably pick the shorter swing bowlers who can't hit the deck hard for bounce when the ball stops swinging. This makes them one dimensional bowlers. 

 

People look.at Anderson's swing but he is also a 6'2" pacer who gets a lot of zip and bounce off the deck. 

 

Around 2013, we had 2 swing bowlers leading the race. One was Bhuvi and the other was the 6'2" Ishwar Pandey who got good bounce too. Bhuvi is still stinking up World Cups while Pandey never even got a India Cap.

 

Ankit Rajpoot was also a tall and bouncy swing bowler in his heydays but did not get any chances. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Vijy said:

likewise, we lack proper test spinners like lyon; not just SC bullies like axar and ass-win.

 

Our spinners like depending on rank turners to get spin. They do not put enough revs on the ball like a Lyon does.

 

This is not lack of talent. We invariably prefer the boring condition dependant spinners over the exciting ones.

 

Kuldeep Yadav picked a fifer in Australia in a test match ... averages 24 in test cricket .. But has hardly played a test match after that stunning performance in early 2019.

 

There was a spinner from Jharkhand ... Samar Quadri ... he could turn the ball square on many normal surfaces. Wasn't groomed properly. Many others like him faced the same fate.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by express bowling

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

We lack proper swing bowlers because we invariably pick the shorter swing bowlers who can't hit the deck hard for bounce when the ball stops swinging. This makes them one dimensional bowlers. 

 

People look.at Anderson's swing but he is also a 6'2" pacer who gets a lot of zip and bounce off the deck. 

 

Around 2013, we had 2 swing bowlers leading the race. One was Bhuvi and the other was the 6'2" Ishwar Pandey who got good bounce too. Bhuvi is still stinking up World Cups while Pandey never even got a India Cap.

 

Ankit Rajpoot was also a tall and bouncy swing bowler in his heydays but did not get any chances. 

 

 

 

Our spinners like depending on rank turners to get spin. They do not put enough revs on the ball like a Lyon does.

 

This is not lack of talent. We invariably prefer the boring condition dependant spinners over the exciting ones.

 

Kuldeep Yadav picked a fifer in Australia in a test match ... averages 24 in test cricket .. But has hardly played a test match after that stunning performance in early 2019.

 

There was a spinner from Jharkhand ... Samar Quadri ... he could turn the ball square on many normal surfaces. Wasn't groomed properly. Many others like him faced the same fate.

 

 

putting a lot of revs is not just something one decides to do, or not do. they lack the talent to put revs - all the likes of ashwin, jaddu, axar.

 

kuldeep is not as talented as he's made out to be. being so slow in the air (unlike warne) is a big issue, and he would have been found out even in tests - got found out in LOIs. in other words, he is a semi-talented player.

 

I saw quadri, liked him, but he wasn't tested against good opposition. hard for me to rate his talent properly when lacking benchmarks

 

regd Andie, we lack taller swing-based bowlers who bowl at a decent clip. also an indication of lack of talent in the ranks

Edited November 10, 2022 by Vijy

[deepdynamo]

Maybe the TM did try out new talent but the wrong talent after UAE WC2021 debacle

Avesh, Harshal, Venky, Hooda were backed but everyone knew they were not cut for International T20.

Bishnoi was benched for Chahal and Ashwin.

Axar was destined for failure in Aus.

Ishan Kishan and Samson couldn't be tried properly because of Rohit, Rahul & Kohli.

 

[PSB_Zone]

T20 is a different format all together.Also it needs different skills.Fearless cricketrs are needed .

1) No accumalaters needed. 1 to 7

2) 6th bowlers should be Batsman who could bowl not the other way round. 

3) Among 3 pacer one should be 145+ quick, One left armer and a yorker

specialist. (all 140+) 

4) Wrist spinner who could bat a bit

5) Fielding should be essential criteria for selection. 

6) Preferably Left/Right opening combo. (Both attacking to use powerplay) 

Edited November 11, 2022 by PSB_Zone

[PSB_Zone]

Shaw/kisan/shreyas/sky/Pant/Pandya/Tewatiya/Kuldeep.yadav/Bumrah/Umran/Arshdeep

[Stan AF]

No

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, Vijy said:

putting a lot of revs is not just something one decides to do, or not do. they lack the talent to put revs - all the likes of ashwin, jaddu, axar.

 

Why do we have limit ourselves to these 3  !

 

Jaddu and Axar are fastish darters and that's a different bowling style.

 

If we can't find even 1 spinner in the whole country, who can put lots of revs on the balls, it means we are very poor regarding talent identification and development. 

 

And putting enough revs on the ball is part ability and part choice. Our spinners want 15+ years of career and want to keep their fingers and wrists fresh by tweaking with moderate effort. 

 

9 hours ago, Vijy said:

 

kuldeep is not as talented as he's made out to be. being so slow in the air (unlike warne) is a big issue, and he would have been found out even in tests - got found out in LOIs. in other words, he is a semi-talented player.

 

Warne was slow in the air and very zippy off the deck with a lot of spin. A killer combo.

 

Kuldeep did not have that zip and that was the issue. 

 

But he has improved this aspect in the last 6 months or so. 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Vijy said:

 

I saw quadri, liked him, but he wasn't tested against good opposition. hard for me to rate his talent properly when lacking benchmarks

 

That's my exact point. We don't try to develop spinners who can turn the ball more than others. 

 

No special interest is taken. 

 

9 hours ago, Vijy said:

 

regd Andie, we lack taller swing-based bowlers who bowl at a decent clip. also an indication of lack of talent in the ranks

 

We don't lack them. We don't pick them. Examples are Rajpoot and Pandey.

 

Pankaj Singh was a 6'6" swing bowler who bowled upto 142 kph in his first test and was a domestic legend  Why did he not get more chances ??

Edited November 11, 2022 by express bowling

[prudent_kreeda]

Lot of posts saying we have talent which gives the impression that many players are READY and sitting on sidelines  which is not case .When we talk about talent for T20, we should analyse whether they have the right skillsets required for T20 game as of now.

Lets look at our problem area -. 

1. Openers with ability to hit in PP both against pace & spin with high SR - Who has proven that against quality bowling hands down?. I do not think we have lots of them.

    May be we have few who can be tested but no one guy we can say, he is ready. 

     Shaw - Has shot making ability against pace but throws his wicket against spin in PP. More than batting ability its sheer lack of fitness, poor fielding  which shows lack professional attitude and poor work ethics . I would not want such guys to be given a free entry to national team. We will end up the same way as now with a pot bellied Rohit being captain and another 3-4 guys who look so out of place on a cricket field. How would you then improve overall fitness, fielding & running between wickets with such selections ?

     Pant - Yet to see him making runs from ball one in T20. Not comfortable when ball moves . If ball is leaving him on off stump , he leaves them  in Tests and attacks when it is on stumps . But in T20 this does not work, he cannot leave balls and wait for a right one to hit. Very peculiar problem when bowlers bowl wide of off stump to him in short format  and guy has not yet found a way to succeed against this tactic. 

     No improvement in T20 skills even after 3-4 years of international experience.

     Samson - Yet to prove even in domestics that he is a top notch opener with consistency in T20 even after 7-8 years of IPL & domestic experience.  Has the timing and shots but very inconsistent.  Not good against quality spin.  The moment he does not get out to pacers, quality spinners will be brought in PP and will he attack them and survive while attacking. I have my doubts. PLUS it seems TM set up is grooming him for MO finisher role, so may not open .

Ishan Kishan- Of late cannot start hitting from the word go. has weakness against high pace 

Ruturaj -Very poor against swing. 

Gill -  For me not yet ready in T20 if we think long term of Indian cricket . He needs to play Tests & 50 overs and master them first. 

KL – Has the talent & big shots but a failure as opener in T20.  Only place I feel he can be given chance is MO like #5.

 

But these are also the bunch who are potential contenders and should be worked upon and given chances. Some may not fit in as opener but may do well in MO like Kishan & KL.

2. Middle Order batters with Good SR, play innovative strokes, No apparent weakness against Pace or spin PLUS can bowl some overs.

Right now no one fits the bill among youngsters as a ready candidate and also none bowl.

Few contenders –

1.     Shreyas Iyer – Still very vulnerable against short stuff. Cannot play Hook or Pull. Even suspect against fastish spin.

2.     Rajat Patidar – Still in doubt if he is international quality. But worth trying. Can he play shots against high pace ?

3.     Rahul Tripathi – Still untested but needs to be given chances.

4.     Hooda – suspect against pace.

  Intent wise & SR wise these guys look fine. Worth investing.  

 

3. Quality spinners who can take wickets in middle overs and also get some runs –

    As of now, no one inspires. Need to really find some new guys.

1.     Bishnoi – With his action suspect he will be able to bowl good leg breaks and going forward may become predictable unless improves with new skillsets. Poor batter.

2.     Kuldip  – Can succeed if develops skills further , looks mentally not strong . Poor in other 2 skills 

3.     Rahul Chahar – Again can be a success if he improves his skillsets as a spinner. Poor in other 2 skills 

4.     Shabaz Khan – Fits the bill somewhat but power hitting is questionable and needs to see wicket taking ability

    

Better to give chances to these guys rather than going again to Jaddu in T20s.    

 

 

4. Pace bowlers with control, skill & bounce -

 Have some contenders but most lack skillsets and the control in execution consistently.

 No other way – Just identify pacers who are fit for T20, One dayers & Test and give them chances in those formats and hope some will scale up.

5.  Lower Order finishers -

    Again no specific name on view. Might have to test guys like Samson, Samad and hope for the best

 

This is the reality Check . No we do not have enough players with right T20 skillsets who are ready and raring to go. 

Problem cannot be fixed right away. It will be longer process and when some of the guys mentioned above rectify their weaknesses and add further T20 skillsets we can again become a top side . No quick fixes .

This will also require a proven new coaching set up for short format to impart specific newer T20 skills which most indian players lack.  

 

[Number]

11 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

Lot of posts saying we have talent which gives the impression that many players are READY and sitting on sidelines  which is not case .When we talk about talent for T20, we should analyse whether they have the right skillsets required for T20 game as of now.

Lets look at our problem area -. 

1. Openers with ability to hit in PP both against pace & spin with high SR - Who has proven that against quality bowling hands down?. I do not think we have lots of them.

    May be we have few who can be tested but no one guy we can say, he is ready. 

     Shaw - Has shot making ability against pace but throws his wicket against spin in PP. More than batting ability its sheer lack of fitness, poor fielding  which shows lack professional attitude and poor work ethics . I would not want such guys to be given a free entry to national team. We will end up the same way as now with a pot bellied Rohit being captain and another 3-4 guys who look so out of place on a cricket field. How would you then improve overall fitness, fielding & running between wickets with such selections ?

     Pant - Yet to see him making runs from ball one in T20. Not comfortable when ball moves . If ball is leaving him on off stump , he leaves them  in Tests and attacks when it is on stumps . But in T20 this does not work, he cannot leave balls and wait for a right one to hit. Very peculiar problem when bowlers bowl wide of off stump to him in short format  and guy has not yet found a way to succeed against this tactic. 

     No improvement in T20 skills even after 3-4 years of international experience.

     Samson - Yet to prove even in domestics that he is a top notch opener with consistency in T20 even after 7-8 years of IPL & domestic experience.  Has the timing and shots but very inconsistent.  Not good against quality spin.  The moment he does not get out to pacers, quality spinners will be brought in PP and will he attack them and survive while attacking. I have my doubts. PLUS it seems TM set up is grooming him for MO finisher role, so may not open .

Ishan Kishan- Of late cannot start hitting from the word go. has weakness against high pace 

Ruturaj -Very poor against swing. 

Gill -  For me not yet ready in T20 if we think long term of Indian cricket . He needs to play Tests & 50 overs and master them first. 

KL – Has the talent & big shots but a failure as opener in T20.  Only place I feel he can be given chance is MO like #5.

 

But these are also the bunch who are potential contenders and should be worked upon and given chances. Some may not fit in as opener but may do well in MO like Kishan & KL.

2. Middle Order batters with Good SR, play innovative strokes, No apparent weakness against Pace or spin PLUS can bowl some overs.

Right now no one fits the bill among youngsters as a ready candidate and also none bowl.

Few contenders –

1.     Shreyas Iyer – Still very vulnerable against short stuff. Cannot play Hook or Pull. Even suspect against fastish spin.

2.     Rajat Patidar – Still in doubt if he is international quality. But worth trying. Can he play shots against high pace ?

3.     Rahul Tripathi – Still untested but needs to be given chances.

4.     Hooda – suspect against pace.

  Intent wise & SR wise these guys look fine. Worth investing.  

 

3. Quality spinners who can take wickets in middle overs and also get some runs –

    As of now, no one inspires. Need to really find some new guys.

1.     Bishnoi – With his action suspect he will be able to bowl good leg breaks and going forward may become predictable unless improves with new skillsets. Poor batter.

2.     Kuldip  – Can succeed if develops skills further , looks mentally not strong . Poor in other 2 skills 

3.     Rahul Chahar – Again can be a success if he improves his skillsets as a spinner. Poor in other 2 skills 

4.     Shabaz Khan – Fits the bill somewhat but power hitting is questionable and needs to see wicket taking ability

    

Better to give chances to these guys rather than going again to Jaddu in T20s.    

 

 

4. Pace bowlers with control, skill & bounce -

 Have some contenders but most lack skillsets and the control in execution consistently.

 No other way – Just identify pacers who are fit for T20, One dayers & Test and give them chances in those formats and hope some will scale up.

5.  Lower Order finishers -

    Again no specific name on view. Might have to test guys like Samson, Samad and hope for the best

 

This is the reality Check . No we do not have enough players with right T20 skillsets who are ready and raring to go. 

Problem cannot be fixed right away. It will be longer process and when some of the guys mentioned above rectify their weaknesses and add further T20 skillsets we can again become a top side . No quick fixes .

This will also require a proven new coaching set up for short format to impart specific newer T20 skills which most indian players lack.  

 

 

That is over analysing things. I agree on Shaw and the way Ricky Ponting complained about his attitude, I don't want him in Indian team too.

But I dont think we can get finished products from domestic T20s.

Even proven T20I start players like Hales, Butler, KL/Rohit, Warner, Finch, De Cock, Rossouw have all sorts of problem against moving ball or high pace or spin. It is what they bring to the table when they are in good form.

[prudent_kreeda]

3 minutes ago, Number said:

 

That is over analysing things. I agree on Shaw and the way Ricky Ponting complained about his attitude, I don't want him in Indian team too.

But I dont think we can get finished products from domestic T20s.

Even proven T20I start players like Hales, Butler, KL/Rohit, Warner, Finch, De Cock, Rossouw have all sorts of problem against moving ball or high pace or spin. It is what they bring to the table when they are in good form.

  My point is if we want to replace older guys & non-performers, we do not have players with skillsets of T20 to make a turaround quickly and hence it is long process till they mature with better T20 skillsets & there are no quick fixes .However my bet is also on the players mentioned above as thats what we have  unfortunately.  We have to work with what we have and make the best out of that. Post was more about reality check at this time and nowhere i am saying these guys should not be picked.

[BacktoCricaddict]

34 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

Bishnoi – With his action suspect

Bhai, this is the first time I am hearing this.  Are there reports of Bishnoi's action being under scrutiny?

[prudent_kreeda]

5 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

  My point is if we want to replace older guys & non-performers, we do not have players with skillsets of T20 to make a turaround quickly and hence it is long process till they mature with better T20 skillsets & there are no quick fixes .However my bet is also on the players mentioned above as thats what we have  unfortunately.  We have to work with what we have and make the best out of that. Post was more about reality check at this time and nowhere i am saying these guys should not be picked.

Plus many of these guys have played internationals, IPL and domestics for 4-5 seasons and not JUST domestics but the glaring  weaknesses still remain . That has never been overcome by players . Thats is the most disappointing part. Good focused players rectify their weaknesses in a season or most by 2 . 

[prudent_kreeda]

3 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Bhai, this is the first time I am hearing this.  Are there reports of Bishnoi's action being under scrutiny?

Action is not suspect ... should have used ""concern is ... instead of suspect ""

Or a comma as below. 

  Bishnoi – With his action, suspect he will be able to bowl good leg breaks and going forward may become predictable unless improves with new skillsets. Poor batter.

[Sooda]

The two things that Set England apart is unorthodoxy and brute power - how many of our players have that.

We laud SKY he is a one off for us, Hardik too - but ENG arguably have a top order packed with batters who are on par if not superior at least in the power game stakes and a few who are on par in the 360 degree batting stakes. 

I see the future of our team built around- Pant, Shaw, SKY, Hardik, Hooda, Samson... maybe Gill and Iyer who are arguably more old fashioned in approach - those first 6 names all have the power game but not the 360 degree hitting ability (SKY aside) that so crucial in this format

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Granted, India is not a country which is particularly gifted in terms of raw, natural athletes. What surprises me is why we don't get the maximum out of what we have. 

 

Too many stubborn, old codgers throughout the cricket system who believe in outdated notions of technique etc . 

[Lord]

No

 

No leg spin AR

No new ball wicket taker

No big hitter at 6-7 who can slog from word go.

no top 5 bat who can roll arm over.

 

[Vijy]

15 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Why do we have limit ourselves to these 3  !

 

Jaddu and Axar are fastish darters and that's a different bowling style.

 

If we can't find even 1 spinner in the whole country, who can put lots of revs on the balls, it means we are very poor regarding talent identification and development. 

 

And putting enough revs on the ball is part ability and part choice. Our spinners want 15+ years of career and want to keep their fingers and wrists fresh by tweaking with moderate effort. 

 

 

Warne was slow in the air and very zippy off the deck with a lot of spin. A killer combo.

 

Kuldeep did not have that zip and that was the issue. 

 

But he has improved this aspect in the last 6 months or so. 

 

 

 

 

That's my exact point. We don't try to develop spinners who can turn the ball more than others. 

 

No special interest is taken. 

 

 

We don't lack them. We don't pick them. Examples are Rajpoot and Pandey.

 

Pankaj Singh was a 6'6" swing bowler who bowled upto 142 kph in his first test and was a domestic legend  Why did he not get more chances ??

I think this is where I used to be of the same mind, but have finally changed it after seeing 2021 and 2022 WT20s one after that other. perhaps these were the straws that finally broke my back (figuratively speaking).

 

I just don't think there are high-quality talents on the bench or in domestics. yes, there are people who seem to be better than the ones selected, but not by much IMO. I am reminded of the post by @Gollum on a diff thread about bench strength (discussing spin). Thanks to these back-to-back wallopings in 2021 and 2022, it has become easier to believe in the narrative that, if we simply change our personnel, then the results will improve. Unfortunately, I do not find this argument as convincing as before (although it might still be accurate). I look around and I see flawed spinners, pacers, and batters. add to that poor fielding, poor attitudes, and poor fitness.

I have still upvoted your post because you are a long-time poster that I greatly respect. I think we will partly have to disagree, but I will be happy to be proven wrong if next-gen talent is indeed genuine talent and not just "tailunt"

Edited November 11, 2022 by Vijy