Was India's greatest fast bowler Kapil Dev a Tim Southee level bowler?

[zen]

 

Talking about Kapil Dev, you only have to see him bowl.  I have faint memories of him going wicketkess in a test series in India in 1986 v Aus. Not doing as much as other Indian seamers in Eng in 1986 despite bowling most overs. Despite being a swing bowler, he did not do as well as expected in Eng and NZ, along with SA where he played in 1992. 
 

An almost 38-39 years old, Hadlee picked up 18 wickets in India in 1988-89.               

Many times, it was frustrating to see Kapil bowl. In fact, the first time I felt an Indian pace bowler finally arrived on the field was when Srinath brushed past SA at A’bad in 1996!

 

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

That's the point. Most players do better in home conditions. Srinath, Umesh Yadav, Shami, Ishant and many other fast bowlers have better records at home and have done little in helpful conditions away. So can't add this logic that Asian pacer did this Asia, so naturally they will be better in other conditions.

 

When home conditions suit your style of bowling its an added advantage as you can adapt better. That Southee couldn't do it itself tells how average he is compared to Kapil.

[Texan]

In my opinion, Kapil Dev is the greatest cricketer India has produced. Some others may have differing opinions (Gavaskar, Tendulkar or so), but what Kapil did at the time he did it cannot be measured purely by stats. When Kapil started his career, he was opening the bowling either with Mohinder Amarnath or Gavaskar. Just pause and think about that. Let that seep in.....

 

There is a saying that "fast bowlers hunt in pairs". Well, Kapil never got that other fast bowler to hunt with. For a majority of his career, he was our lone fast bowler and he kept doing this over a couple of decades while still maintaining his peak fitness. His bowling itself was enough to keep him in the team, but add his batting to the mix and you see how much value he brought to the team.

[Texan]

7 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Ashwin Jadeja are not better statistically either.

I think he meant to say that their bowling averages are lower than Warne at the moment.

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, Texan said:

In my opinion, Kapil Dev is the greatest cricketer India has produced. Some others may have differing opinions (Gavaskar, Tendulkar or so), but what Kapil did at the time he did it cannot be measured purely by stats. When Kapil started his career, he was opening the bowling either with Mohinder Amarnath or Gavaskar. Just pause and think about that. Let that seep in.....

 

There is a saying that "fast bowlers hunt in pairs". Well, Kapil never got that other fast bowler to hunt with. For a majority of his career, he was our lone fast bowler and he kept doing this over a couple of decades while still maintaining his peak fitness. His bowling itself was enough to keep him in the team, but add his batting to the mix and you see how much value he brought to the team.

 

Even the spin options INdia had was not world class. If you list greatest spinners for India you won't find anyone from the 1980s. Either 70s or post 2000. Nothing in between. Shivlal yadav, Dilip Doshi, Ravi Bot.   Only promising guy was L Siva. But within two tests he fell away. 

 

Look at the appalling spin stats of Indians in the 1980s. Ignore the one test wonder Hirwani.

 

[Gollum]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Ashwin Jadeja are not better statistically either.

Ashwin has better avg, SR than Warne. Jaddu has better avg. But only a fool would put the two Indians in the same category as GOAT Warne. 

[zen]

Unfortunately, Kapil Dev is unlikely to be discussed much apart from among his Indian fans. It is funny to see that instead of accepting that the guy was not a top-tier bowler, folks are making attempts (and that too in the comfort of like-minded folks. It is like a Pakistani agreeing with other Pakistani that Pakistan is a great power. ) by providing excuses for a player who has played over 130 tests. There is no award to be won here (it does not even matter if Southee is a better bowler.).  

 

Having watched Kapil, roughly since 1986, I like him (mainly for his carefree free flowing batting. In terms of talent, to me, he was someone who could have averaged 35-40 if he paid more attention to it). The only time, I was probably excited by his bowling was in Aus in 1992, where he picked up 20-25 wickets in 5 Tests iirc to finally reach/cross the 400 wickets mark (though it was not a game-changing performance as Aus got good scores). 

Edited March 19, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

There is analysis. Then there is assholysis (brainless opinions) I can see fair amout of the second floating around here.

[zen]

Also will add that Kapil Dev has probably not been a key contributor with the ball in series wins overseas. The sample size is small (as Ind did not win much) but below is Ind in Eng in 1986 (pace bowlers): 

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
S Madan Lal	1	2	20.5	5	48	3	3/18	3/48	16.00	2.30	41.6	0	0
C Sharma	2	4	102.3	20	300	16	6/58	10/188	18.75	2.92	38.4	2	1
RMH Binny	3	6	87.2	11	251	12	5/40	7/58	20.91	2.87	43.6	1	0
N Kapil Dev	3	6	128.2	36	306	10	4/52	5/119	30.60	2.38	77.0	0	0

 

 

Even in SL in the 80s, where India could have won in that period if guys like Kapil had stepped up:

Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10   RMH Binny 1 1 12.0 0 49 2 2/49 2/49 24.50 4.08 36.0 0 0   C Sharma 3 6 109.0 12 383 14 5/118 6/173 27.35 3.51 46.7 1 0   M Amarnath 2 1 15.0 2 31 1 1/31 1/31 31.00 2.06 90.0 0 0   N Kapil Dev 3 6 129.4 30 372 11 3/74 5/110 33.81 2.86 70.7 0 0

 

 

 

 

[singhprakash72]

I remember watching Kapil dev starting with short highlights by Channel 9 in 1980/1 during Aus tour. His bowling was at least a few notches above the next Indian medium pacer at that time viz Madan Lal, Kashan Ghavri, Roger Binny, Mohinder Amarnath etc. It is hard to compare with Southee  due to contrasting era in terms of level of cricket played and how defensive mindset for test used to be during those times. Having said that Kapil was a strike bowler for India till mid 80s but his knee injury after 1986/7 made him a stock bowler which means for last 7 years of his career he was not expected to run through the opposition ( which non of the Indian pace bowlers did unless spinners at home conditions). He took 8 wkts in an innings at Adelaide Aus 1985 and after that only on two tours one to WI in 1989 and Aus in 1991/2 did he again take 5 wkts or more in a innings.

Also Kapil started contributing more with the bat than ball later in his career but last 2 years he was probably bowling first 5 overs with new ball and his record shows that. He stayed at least 2 years too long (should have retired in early 1992) specially with Srinath along with Venkatesh Prasad already in scene with Prabhakar established.

[zen]

 I can't even recall Kapil bowling too many bouncers (esp. where he troubled a batsman). 

 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

32 minutes ago, singhprakash72 said:

I remember watching Kapil dev starting with short highlights by Channel 9 in 1980/1 during Aus tour. His bowling was at least a few notches above the next Indian medium pacer at that time viz Madan Lal, Kashan Ghavri, Roger Binny, Mohinder Amarnath etc. It is hard to compare with Southee  due to contrasting era in terms of level of cricket played and how defensive mindset for test used to be during those times. Having said that Kapil was a strike bowler for India till mid 80s but his knee injury after 1986/7 made him a stock bowler which means for last 7 years of his career he was not expected to run through the opposition ( which non of the Indian pace bowlers did unless spinners at home conditions). He took 8 wkts in an innings at Adelaide Aus 1985 and after that only on two tours one to WI in 1989 and Aus in 1991/2 did he again take 5 wkts or more in a innings.

Also Kapil started contributing more with the bat than ball later in his career but last 2 years he was probably bowling first 5 overs with new ball and his record shows that. He stayed at least 2 years too long (should have retired in early 1992) specially with Srinath along with Venkatesh Prasad already in scene with Prabhakar established.

 

Not a single fast bowler crossed 100 wickets let alone 200 in the 1980s. Chetan sharma fluked some wickets. Seriously a garbage bowler.  Binny was atleast a swing bowler. But they were all trundlers. 

 

 

In India it is even worse. He had zero support from fast bowlers. He singlehandedly ran through Pakistan at chepauk picking 11 wickets.

 

 

[Vijy]

22 hours ago, Majestic said:

Kapil Dev 

 

M 131, W 434, AVG 29.6

 

Southee

 

M 94, W 367, AVG 29.1

 

I have categorised as fast bowler but they both are medium fast and known for their outswingers.

seems like a random comparison where the only commonalities are being "medium fast" and known for "outswingers". one can pick any two cricketers in the same group at random and make random comparisons. like... Sobers vs Lara, both were "LHBs", "attacking bats", with "great cutting and pulling". here also we are comparing an older-period AR with a modern batter

 

pitches were diff, bowling loads were diff, quality of batsmanship was diff, etc. and kapil was an AR, not a bowler. if he played for modern NZ and focused only on bowling, he would have better record than southee.

[Nikhil_cric]

That was a different era of cricket. 80 mph Hadlee who did not get a lot of bounce had a lot of success too. 

 

Kapil's greatest accomplishment was winning the World Cup in 1983 with that team .  

 

There were atleast a dozen Test bowlers better than him in Test cricket across his career 

[coffee_rules]

On 3/18/2023 at 10:25 PM, Majestic said:

Kapil Dev 

 

M 131, W 434, AVG 29.6

 

Southee

 

M 94, W 367, AVG 29.1

 

I have categorised as fast bowler but they both are medium fast and known for their outswingers.

Compare his stats pre-84 before his knee surgery and after

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Compare his stats pre-84 before his knee surgery and after

Pre-84 is pretty good.

 

Matches - 62, WKts - 247, AVG 27.

 

But next 70 tests are poor with close to 180 wickets. 

 

Conclusion, Kapil was an excellent bowler in first half and a good batsman.

 

But in second half, he was just a Jason Holder level A/R.

[Trichromatic]

6 hours ago, Vijy said:

seems like a random comparison where the only commonalities are being "medium fast" and known for "outswingers". one can pick any two cricketers in the same group at random and make random comparisons. like... Sobers vs Lara, both were "LHBs", "attacking bats", with "great cutting and pulling". here also we are comparing an older-period AR with a modern batter

 

pitches were diff, bowling loads were diff, quality of batsmanship was diff, etc. and kapil was an AR, not a bowler. if he played for modern NZ and focused only on bowling, he would have better record than southee.

 

Why is it that people bring up lot of could have, would have while discussing Kapil?

 

He played 131 tests, those could have, would have shouldn't matter.

[Trichromatic]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:39 AM, Lord said:

 

Southee's been bad there too despite playing on similar wickets at home.

 

Southee averages 26 at home and 31 away just like Kapil who coincidently averages similar home and away.

 

1980s was one of the bowling friendly decade just like 2015-2023. However Southee played fair amount of game before 2015 which is reflected Southee's stats also. He has picked up last 200 wickets at avg of 26 and last 300 at avg of 27.

[vvvslaxman]

Bowling average in the last 5 years have been low for most for whatever reason drop in batting quality or more result oriented mindset  or influence of T20 no idea.

 

Ishant till 2015

 

61 tests 187 wickets 37.30 average

 

Ishant after 2015

 

44 tests 124 wickets 25.01 avge

 

More result oriented matches/pitches.

 

Southee Till 2015

 

46 tests 163 wickets 31.47 avge

 

Southee After 2015

 

48 tests 207 wickets 27.03 avge

 

 

Look at Jamie Anderson. At the age of 42 he is ranked no.1. Not even when he was in prime youth he could be like this. 

 

Look at Pakistan stats in the last 10 or 15 years.

 

Mohammad sami 52

Mohammad amer 30

Wahab Riaz 35

 

compare with their current crop

 

Hasan Ali 25

Mohammad Abbase 23

Shaheen shah afridi 24.

 

Inventor of bottle cap technique ( they call him creator of reverse swing) sarfraz nawaz finished with an average of 32.

 

So comparing 2000 with 2010 itself gives you a different picture. COmparing that too a lone Indian fast bowler from the 80s with bowlers who are part of the battery of fast bowling unit is giving you only half truth..

 

 

 

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Why is it that people bring up lot of could have, would have while discussing Kapil?

 

He played 131 tests, those could have, would have shouldn't matter.

because this is a random comparison for all the reasons I gave in my post. if one is to compare an apple and a orange, one of them must be transformed into the other. apples vs apples would be something like southee vs broad.