Some hard truths

[Ultimate_Game]

Hope selectors and higher ups finally learn some bitter lessons and hard truths from another knockout debacle...

1. Batting depth
The only time we won the world cups was when we had likes of Binny, Madan Lal, Kirmani batting in the tail with batsmen till no. 7. In 2011 we had Raina at 7 with likes of Harbhajan and Zaheer in the tail who could actually hold a bat. I don't reacll any top heavy team who could only bat till 5 or 6 ever winning anything. Lack of depth also affects the other batsmen as they know if they fail it's curtains resulting in knocks which Kohli and KL played. But unfortunately don't think the board and higher ups care as rule such as "Impact Player" actually downplays the role of all-rounders.

2. Differentiate between formats
Can't really understand how the selectors can't see what most fans can, i.e. selecting players suitable to formats. Tests, Odis, and T20s are different formats with different skills & requirements. For a country like India, which has no dearth of decent players, we should not be struggling to force players into a format which they're not a good fit for. Playing Suryakumar Yadav ahead of Sarfraz Khan in Tests was a slap in the face of all Ranji and FC players. And someone like Rinku Singh would've been a much better fit in odis who has proven performance in List A (average of 50+) and has shown a temperament to perform under pressure. Haven't seen anything from SKY which shows he has a good temperament and there's a reason he averages 30 odd in List A. Even someone like Jaiswal would've been a better fit. Hopefully we have separate teams for the three formats and folks such as Jaiswal, Rinku Singh, Sarfraz Khan, Tilak Varma get their due.

3. Prioritize all-rounders and part timers
Goes back to the first point, i.e. batting depth. It's proven again we can't carry 5 no. 11s and a non-performing Jadeja (as a batsman) in the team. We have to prioritize getting folks who can roll their arms over a la Sehwag, and bowlers who can bat a bit such as Deepak Chahar. IMO Pandya was a big miss today as he wouldn't have shat the bed like SKY and gives you some balance. Hope the useles "Impact Player" gets thrown out and someone sees the light.

4. Move away from oldies
No point in continuing with the likes of Rohit, Kohli, Shami etc. who won't be there for the next tourney. And I hope we get away from this infatuation with 50s, 100s etc. I don't care about 100 100s etc. with 0 trophies. Give me folks like Head who actually perform when it matters. When we count SRT's 11 100s, and Kohli's 80 100s we haven't managed to win jack shyte. And someone like Head with probably 10 100s has managed to win 2 tourneys for Australia.

5. Hire a coach who understands modern cricket
For crying out loud get someone who understands modern cricket. Get someone like Stephen Fleming. Dravid hasn't shown anything so far, and we're still stuck in 90s with 5 no. 11s and specialists. Relying on Shami to blow the opponents away is not a long term strategy, and we need depth to be successful in the longer run and win something of note. At least the coach will come with a fresh perspective and move away from TTFs. I don't expect likes of Kohli, KL, Jadeja etc. to win anything of note and let the coach get the right players in the team.

And finally when we're the hosts, at least schedule knockouts at venues and time when toss doesn't play a huge role. We were lucky at Wankhede but expecting to win 2 consecutive tosses was asking for too much when we've barely won 2 tosses out of last 9 or 10 knockouts. Haven't seen a more unlucky team with the coin ever. And would be great if we actually have BCCI use its clout to have someone who's not Kettleborough be the umpire - we would at least get some umpire calls.

[vvvslaxman]

Abshishek sharma, Riyan Paragh. need to be drafted in. INdian set up would have been great if only Jadeja had the ability of Maxwell, Sky had the ability of David Miller. At times it is hard to tell the difference between them and tail.

[BlueBlood]

Issue is playing based on emotions and superstitions rather than pure math and statistics.

 

Raina and Yuvraj were clutch players who got us out of bad situations. Even Sehwag was Maxwell level bowler.

 

Issue is this Superstar nonsense started since Kohli where records matter more than helping for teams cause.

 

Can't blame Jadeja as he's a better pick than Chahal or Ashwin for fielding, bowling and batting.

 

Issue is with top order none of then field at the level Jadeja does and if KL Rahul was made keeper you needed an all rounder like Hardik to compensate.

 

Can't expect KL to not give away 5-10 extra runs keeping as he's not world class.

 

It's stupid illogical thinking that only an Indian coach and captain + TM would think.

 

Gary Kirsten would never do such silly mistakes. 

[Strangering]

Hard truth 

 

Indians celebrate individual player milestones. All the hoopla about Kohli's centuries didn't amount to a championship, so do those runs even matter? Ultimately, you have to win tournaments and Australia has that Championship DNA. 

 

It won't surprise me if Rohit and Virat play till they're 40 (especially the latter). 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Strangering

[Prabhdeep Singh]

India have lost 7 ICC Finals and 7 ICC Semi Finals in their history.

[Strangering]

You need match winners for the big games. The likes of Yuvraj Singh. His career stat line may not be legendary but he showed up when it mattered. 

[chewy]

The short short sightness of BCCI, selectors and players is staggering. Despite the resources it is getting embarrassing. And seems popularity of players within media and Indian public is driving selections especially the batsmen.

 

[Ultimate_Game]

8 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

Issue is playing based on emotions and superstitions rather than pure math and statistics.

 

Raina and Yuvraj were clutch players who got us out of bad situations. Even Sehwag was Maxwell level bowler.

 

Issue is this Superstar nonsense started since Kohli where records matter more than helping for teams cause.

 

Can't blame Jadeja as he's a better pick than Chahal or Ashwin for fielding, bowling and batting.

 

Issue is with top order none of then field at the level Jadeja does and if KL Rahul was made keeper you needed an all rounder like Hardik to compensate.

 

Can't expect KL to not give away 5-10 extra runs keeping as he's not world class.

 

It's stupid illogical thinking that only an Indian coach and captain + TM would think.

 

Gary Kirsten would never do such silly mistakes. 

 

IMO we over-performed in the tourney with glaring issues such as tail starting at no. 7 - actually 6 - as SKY is a glorified tailender in odis. We never really needed the batting depth thanks to Shami' magical run. I was hoping we would escape for 1 more game but eventually such an imbalanced team had to catch up. We missed a great opportunity to win the tourney as England was a no show, and Australia was the only other team to beat given NZ was struggling towards the end. Don't think we'll get a better opportunity to win. Hoefully likes of Jaiswals, Tilaks and Rinku Singhs are more like Travis Head instead of stat padders and milestone chasers.

[SandeepMotta]

The biggest fraud of Indian cricket Jadeja who masquerades as an all rounder should be chucked out for good.

[badmash]

Tum say na ho paye ga .. home conditions, full crowd support to the point where no other team support is present in the stadium… us par bhi haar gaye.. laanat hay 

[Swag]

2 minutes ago, badmash said:

Tum say na ho paye ga .. home conditions, full crowd support to the point where no other team support is present in the stadium… us par bhi haar gaye.. laanat hay 

You people at the back need to shout louder, cannot hear you...

[Ultimate_Game]

4 minutes ago, Prabhdeep Singh said:

India have lost 7 ICC Finals and 7 ICC Semi Finals in their history.

 

Such a shameful stat given there're only 2 or 3 teams we're competing with for the most part.

 

5 minutes ago, Strangering said:

Hard truth 

 

Indians celebrate individual player milestones. All the hoopla about Kohli's centuries didn't amount to a championship, so do those runs even matter? Ultimately, you have to win tournaments and Australia has that Championship DNA. 

 

It won't surprise me if Rohit and Virat play till they're 40 (especially the latter). 

 

Yup. Give me someone like Travis Head instead of 50 or 100 100s. The only batsmen who played selfless cricket were Rohit Sharma and Iyer. Rohit could've had 3 or more 100s if he had tuk tukked but he really did play for the team. And Iyer never slowed down unlike KL or Kohli who were more fixated on getting their 100s than winning the match or upping the NRR. KL slouching down after hitting the winning 6 in the first match, and Kohli going for a 6 to reach his 100 instead of ensuring a win over Nez Zealand in group matches says it all.

[chewy]

Oh btw, the celebrity/superstar culture is nauseating, Kohli, Rohit, Rahul  Pandya and now likes of Iyer and Gill joining the bandwagon. Hardly any go play some Ranji or other domestic competitions. 

Once they get established there is some kind of entitlement they perceived they will play IPL and for India only. 

 

It was so pathetic when during this World Cup when batting first, Kohli and Iyer trundling when reaching 90s to secure a 100. This is mindset that will always keep them as losers. Whilst likes of Smith and Warner have 2no. ODI WC, 1no. T20 World Cup, an ICC Test Champsionship, all in last 10 years.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by chewy

[Ultimate_Game]

5 minutes ago, SandeepMotta said:

The biggest fraud of Indian cricket Jadeja who masquerades as an all rounder should be chucked out for good.

 

Yup. He's someone who is at best a no. 8 or 9. Shows how light our batting was when he's batting at 6 or 7. Essentially nothing has changed over the last decade - we've a team which looks like RCB (top heavy) and performs like RCB on intl stage.

[BlueBlood]

7 minutes ago, Strangering said:

You need match winners for the big games. The likes of Yuvraj Singh. His career stat line may not be legendary but he showed up when it mattered. 

 

Finally this has been proven right. 

 

Last 4 years I have been hated and vilified for saying stats don't mean anything.

 

Yet the bandwagon jumpers here always keep bringing useless stats.

 

Yuvraj and Raina is who should be in Hall of Fame similar to Aravinda de silva.

 

Not Rohits and Kohlis who are useless in big matches.

 

Even SKY will admit he was not correct for this role. Why wasn't a Rinku Singh or some other bowling all rounder not brought in?

 

Even in Soccer Messi was considered a choker until he won world cup but Mbappe played a blinder almost to deny Argentina a win.

 

This is what champions do. You are not a champion if you just stat pad.

 

The game was not even close. Australia won within 15th over itself.

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, chewy said:

Oh btw, the celebrity/superstar culture is nauseating, Kohli, Rohit, Rahul  Pandya and now likes of Iyer and Gill joining the bandwagon. Hardly any go play some Ranji or other domestic competitions. 

Once they get established there is some kind of entitlement they perceived they will play IPL and for India only. 

 

 I would cut Rohit and Iyer some slack. Rohit was the only one who showed he learned from our previous failures. The guy played for the team throughout. Same with Iyer - he may not be the best technically but he never played for his average or tuk tukked anytime. Reminded me a lot of Raina. But Kohli and KL stat padded thanks to Rohit's starts and when they had to do the hard running they struggled. After the start we had today, a score of 280-290 was on the cards even if we scored around 5 an over. They couldn't even do that.

[Strangering]

6 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

 

Finally this has been proven right. 

 

Last 4 years I have been hated and vilified for saying stats don't mean anything.

 

Yet the bandwagon jumpers here always keep bringing useless stats.

 

Yuvraj and Raina is who should be in Hall of Fame similar to Aravinda de silva.

 

Not Rohits and Kohlis who are useless in big matches.

 

Even SKY will admit he was not correct for this role. Why wasn't a Rinku Singh or some other bowling all rounder not brought in?

 

Even in Soccer Messi was considered a choker until he won world cup but Mbappe played a blinder almost to deny Argentina a win.

 

This is what champions do. You are not a champion if you just stat pad.

 

The game was not even close. Australia won within 15th over itself.

 

 

Agree with everything except putting Rohit in the same "stat chasing" category as Kohli. 

 

Rohit was consistently our best batsman this world cup (including today). He played a blinder to start the inning. 

[Austin 3:!6]

19 minutes ago, badmash said:

Tum say na ho paye ga .. home conditions, full crowd support to the point where no other team support is present in the stadium… us par bhi haar gaye.. laanat hay 

 

@Norman look this guy is back. He got so excited after Asia cup first game which got washed out that he even changed in DP. Then ekdum se waqt badal diye and the guy was hiding since 9th Sept until today

[badmash]

1 minute ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

 

@Norman look this guy is back. He got so excited after Asia cup first game which got washed out that he even changed in DP. Then ekdum se waqt badal diye and the guy was hiding since 9th Sept until today

Aapki humiliation mein hum shaamil na ho … aisa ho nahi sakta  

 

Dil samajtay ho dil ? Meray dil ko thandak pahunchi hay 

[R!TTER]

20 minutes ago, Strangering said:

All the hoopla about Kohli's centuries didn't amount to a championship, so do those runs even matter?

That's not true, many of us were railing against that MFer for the sh!tshow vs NZ at Dharmshala & again in the SF at Mumbai - he played selfishly both times!

 

A large part which is kinda ignored & I've missed in recent times is hitting boundaries along the ground or quick singles - I think someone mentioned this in SF or just before that. Most of our players as well as from other nations play a dot then boundary & then the odd single. Boundaries are also aerial a lot more these days - there's no need for that. Ironically I'd sat Kohli played the least risky among Indian batters here & that approach was great, if RGS had any sense he would’ve waited for the PP to end & then milked the bowlers especially part timers for the odd boundary or sixes. I mentioned this at least a few times before this - Sharma was our plan A, if he didn't work out we never had a plan b/c/d/e from the lower order! Can anyone find out how much did the 5th bowler's quota went for Oz?

 

10 overs 1/44 with RGS being match ka *ing mujrim