Caste discussion in Indian cricket and TN cricket

[Real McCoy]

55 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Look at any video of Ashwin or Vishy Anand and you'll see roaches with their casteist vitriol in the comments section. All thanks to DK/DMK clowns who will hide all their shortcomings with anti Brahmin vitriol. I mean come on, their population is 1-2%, hardly any role in government, public office, heck even government jobs, a group not prone to violence or aggressive demands, mostly law abiding, no reservation benefits. Why the insecurity? Inferiority complex driven rage? Most of the fights/violence are between OBCs and SCs....not just in TN but also in the Hindi heartland.

 

Anyway don't really believe in this caste nonsense, speaking as a Hindu, just hope all castes unite.....that is also RSS/BJP's ultimate aim....uniting all Hindus (and other willing dharmics) under one umbrella and doing away with caste (as Veer Savarkar had envisioned/prophesized). This is what scares the daylights out of Islamists, missionaries and leftists, they had a free run for over 6 decades, couldn't eradicate our religion (DMK heir and his group still talk about eradicating us, see their language), and now we are stronger than ever before. 

 

Yeah dude. Its only when I see the internet posts, there seems to be a vitriolic comments directed towards brahmins and now its a free for all to abuse any castes. Brahmins take the brunt of it all. Even the BCs dont really fight these days because they dont see the point in it. Its between OBC and SCs.

[Stan AF]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

If that is a jab at the janeu, I assume you don't know much about Hinduism. All castes can wear janeu. 

Maybe but in TN it's mostly Brahmins that wear it. You can see from the video itself ashwin himself is unwilling to talk about it.

 

There are even movies made on this subject..Varun C himself has acted in a similar subject film called jeeva released in 2014.

[diga]

18 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Maybe but in TN it's mostly Brahmins that wear it. You can see from the video itself ashwin himself is unwilling to talk about it.

 

There are even movies made on this subject..Varun C himself has acted in a similar subject film called jeeva released in 2014.

I know a chettiar from TN who does wear the janeu

[Real McCoy]

28 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Maybe but in TN it's mostly Brahmins that wear it. You can see from the video itself ashwin himself is unwilling to talk about it.

 

There are even movies made on this subject..Varun C himself has acted in a similar subject film called jeeva released in 2014.

 

Your right in your first sentence not so much in the second. Ashwin didn't want to create a controversy while still conveying that its not an easy job to play cricket in TN. If you are insinuating that it was a brahmin who touched him, then its mostly a masala story from Ashwin. Brahmins don't need to see poonuls to determine if one is a brahmin. They suss out with the way they speak. The story would gain somewhat more credence (if it does at all) if it was a non-brahmin who touched him. Even then, everyone knew he was a brahmin

[Real McCoy]

19 minutes ago, diga said:

I know a chettiar from TN who does wear the janeu

 

Is janeu worn by people who swear by some oath. One guy I knew who was not a brahmin who wore it was a vegertarian as per his custom.

[Gollum]

I understand that TN has not done too well in cricket and maybe that's why this caste angle is being looked at. Even in films as @Stan AF said.

 

But I think the bigger point is that TN is quite poor in all physical sports (so don't bring up chess). Once upon a time they were good in tennis (Krishnans, Amritraj etc.) but look at TN representation in Olympics, Asian Games, CWG etc. I am sure Brahmins don't dominate the scene in football, basketball or volleyball, but even there TN is a non-factor at the national level, forget producing international class athletes. In hockey we have one Selvam Karthi but he isn't a guaranteed starter (skilled but physically/strengthwise has to improve a lot), before him I don't remember an Indian hockey player from TN since I started following the sport (mid-2000s), I can name several players from Kerala, Karnataka but not one from TN....again I doubt Brahmins control the hockey scene in TN. A weak cricket state like Bengal has at least won Santosh Trophy (equivalent of Ranji) some 35 times, TN has never won that tournament in its history (even 10 lakhs population Mizoram won it recently). Badminton champs from Telugu region.....max TN will have a couple of decent women's squash players, and a TT guy (mostly ranked outside top 60), nothing of note in athletics...for a state with 8.5 crores population that is not good enough. Sri Lanka is 1/4th the size of TN and has achieved so much in cricket. All other South Indian states will have medal contenders in Paris Olympics. 

 

Honestly speaking, I think this TNCA Brahmin angle is a convenient excuse to justify their overall ineptness. Maybe the other non-Brahmin players are even worse. There is no trend, or past achievement or achievement in other sports to show that TN has a lot of potential in cricket/sports but is being mismanaged or the state is underachieving. Maybe this is the best TN has to offer. 

 

I am not bashing the state, so don't get offended by my post. Maybe TN has other strengths, like education, medicine, industries.....maybe the people are more academically inclined and not into much physical activity (the weather too is unforgiving for sports, Lanka is a lot cooler). Maybe a nutrition deficiency because of diet, maybe schools don't encourage sports culture. A small state like Haryana is doing us proud in Olympics because of their government policies, and more importantly their society (schools, parents, peers) which encourages sports, even for their girls. Instead of looking for excuses or making some community a target, TN should see where it is going wrong, maybe take tips from states like Haryana or Punjab, look to improve. 

[mishra]

1 hour ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Yeah dude. Its only when I see the internet posts, there seems to be a vitriolic comments directed towards brahmins and now its a free for all to abuse any castes. Brahmins take the brunt of it all. Even the BCs dont really fight these days because they dont see the point in it. Its between OBC and SCs.

Exactly. Brahmins are there to be blamed for what is wrong with Hinduism. Fact is morality and ethics constantly evolving in any society in world. Brahmins lost hold over evolution of morality and ethics in Hindu Society the day their centres of Research (which was Indian Universities destruction like Takshila, Nalanda, Vallabhi or temples like Somnath, Kashi, Mathura,Ayodhya,Martendya,Bateshwara and hundreds of temples in Qutub Minar and thousands more in rest of India) and enforcement tools in society (which was various kingdom ruled by Hindus who respected them and their views).

What morality and ethics and social behaviour is attcked is actually frozen in time since days of Raja Dahir or in many cases introduced due automatic defence mechanism of society (for example customs like Sati, Child marriage, Ghoonghat, Ivory bangles, inequality in Women freedom).

 

Given opportunity, with limited amount of freedom, Brahmins evolved to again influence the society. Its impact of that which is why India today is going toward caste nullification, social/religious/custom equality, gender equality and so on. Brahminism is a concept whose job is constantly improve Indian society

Edited April 19 by mishra

[mishra]

@Gollum How did you forget Dhanraj Pillai. I dont know his caste though.

 

Also nutrition deficiency is down to poverty. Chinese ate everything , still they were small. Today same average chinese are taller stronger and fatter

Edited April 19 by mishra

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, mishra said:

@Gollum How did you forget Dhanraj Pillai. I dont know his caste though

Didn't forget him. Born and brought up in Maharashtra, TN had no role to play in his success. 

[mishra]

57 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Maybe but in TN it's mostly Brahmins that wear it. You can see from the video itself ashwin himself is unwilling to talk about it.

 

There are even movies made on this subject..Varun C himself has acted in a similar subject film called jeeva released in 2014.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana

[Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I understand that TN has not done too well in cricket and maybe that's why this caste angle is being looked at. Even in films as @Stan AF said.

 

But I think the bigger point is that TN is quite poor in all physical sports (so don't bring up chess). Once upon a time they were good in tennis (Krishnans, Amritraj etc.) but look at TN representation in Olympics, Asian Games, CWG etc. I am sure Brahmins don't dominate the scene in football, basketball or volleyball, but even there TN is a non-factor at the national level, forget producing international class athletes. In hockey we have one Selvam Karthi but he isn't a guaranteed starter (skilled but physically/strengthwise has to improve a lot), before him I don't remember an Indian hockey player from TN since I started following the sport (mid-2000s), I can name several players from Kerala, Karnataka but not one from TN....again I doubt Brahmins control the hockey scene in TN. A weak cricket state like Bengal has at least won Santosh Trophy (equivalent of Ranji) some 35 times, TN has never won that tournament in its history (even 10 lakhs population Mizoram won it recently). Badminton champs from Telugu region.....max TN will have a couple of decent women's squash players, and a TT guy (mostly ranked outside top 60), nothing of note in athletics...for a state with 8.5 crores population that is not good enough. Sri Lanka is 1/4th the size of TN and has achieved so much in cricket. All other South Indian states will have medal contenders in Paris Olympics. 

 

Honestly speaking, I think this TNCA Brahmin angle is a convenient excuse to justify their overall ineptness. Maybe the other non-Brahmin players are even worse. There is no trend, or past achievement or achievement in other sports to show that TN has a lot of potential in cricket/sports but is being mismanaged or the state is underachieving. Maybe this is the best TN has to offer. 

 

I am not bashing the state, so don't get offended by my post. Maybe TN has other strengths, like education, medicine, industries.....maybe the people are more academically inclined and not into much physical activity (the weather too is unforgiving for sports, Lanka is a lot cooler). Maybe a nutrition deficiency because of diet, maybe schools don't encourage sports culture. A small state like Haryana is doing us proud in Olympics because of their government policies, and more importantly their society (schools, parents, peers) which encourages sports, even for their girls. Instead of looking for excuses or making some community a target, TN should see where it is going wrong, maybe take tips from states like Haryana or Punjab, look to improve. 

 

Are you serious? There is Baskaaran straight off the bat from me. There were several hockey players I'm thinking of that are from TN but need to confirm. But I agree TN players in all sports need to improve their physicality. Its not just eating meat or whatever. Its also training hard lifting weights and good nutrition that has to be factored in. It all boils down to one issue though which I didn't address but I wanted to. I'm talking about the 90s kids. Sports was never considered as a serious professional endeavor. The northerners are much more risk taking (you know they are "aggressive" Its true in this case though) than the southerners especially TN in this field.

 

I don't know about now but when I was growing up, we played cricket in the streets, parks, schools, colleges, etc as a pasttime but the mentality was to concentrate on studies and get a good job. This is just the middle class. The lower income and poor had everyday struggle to deal with. I suppose only the well off people back in the day ventured into these sports. Playing cricket is not cheap. This is an important factor that many people who blame caste miss. There may have been actual discrimination in the past as well. Not denying that possibility.

[Real McCoy]

11 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Didn't forget him. Born and brought up in Maharashtra, TN had no role to play in his success. 

 

But you were talking about physical strength when you were talking about hockey. Its not like MH produces better food than TN. Making a note to try out vadapavs from Mumbai

Edited April 19 by Real McCoy
spelling

[Real McCoy]

20 minutes ago, mishra said:

Exactly. Brahmins are there to be blamed for what is wrong with Hinduism. Fact is morality and ethics constantly evolving in any society in world. Brahmins lost hold over evolution of morality and ethics in Hindu Society the day their centres of Research (which was Indian Universities destruction like Takshila, Nalanda, Vallabhi or temples like Somnath, Kashi, Mathura,Ayodhya,Martendya,Bateshwara and hundreds of temples in Qutub Minar and thousands more in rest of India) and enforcement tools in society (which was various kingdom ruled by Hindus who respected them and their views).

What morality and ethics and social behaviour is attcked is actually frozen in time since days of Raja Dahir or in many cases introduced due automatic defence mechanism of society (for example customs like Sati, Child marriage, Ghoonghat, Ivory bangles, inequality in Women freedom).

 

Given opportunity, with limited amount of freedom, Brahmins evolved to again influence the society. Its impact of that which is why India today is going toward caste nullification, social/religious/custom equality, gender equality and so on. Brahminism is a concept whose job is constantly improve Indian society

 

Be careful. Naya banda is watching. He is itching to get his word in  

[Stan AF]

Another Tamil movie which came earlier this year called bluestar is also quite good.

 

It deals with class struggles as ash mentioned and local politics based cricket movie.

[Gollum]

34 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Are you serious? There is Baskaaran straight off the bat from me. There were several hockey players I'm thinking of that are from TN but need to confirm.

Bro, Baskaran is now 73. TN had even better hockey players like Phillips and Govinda in the 70s (the 1975 WC win was bigger than 1980 Moscow which most of the world boycotted, all our main rivals from the West and Pakistan skipped Moscow.), Dhyan Chand's immortals had representation from Madras State.

 

TN also had great tennis players once upon a time, but for the last 30-40 years, there is a lack of representation from TN in Indian sports, not just cricket. That is a lot of years, half of independent India's history......and TN has (for Indian standards) a very good economy, good HDI, big population, sports infrastructure etc. As you said, probably a mindset problem where the youth don't see a future in sports, or don't train enough or with the right attitude.

Edited April 19 by Gollum

[Lone Wolf]

37 minutes ago, mishra said:

Exactly. Brahmins are there to be blamed for what is wrong with Hinduism. Fact is morality and ethics constantly evolving in any society in world. Brahmins lost hold over evolution of morality and ethics in Hindu Society the day their centres of Research (which was Indian Universities destruction like Takshila, Nalanda, Vallabhi or temples like Somnath, Kashi, Mathura,Ayodhya,Martendya,Bateshwara and hundreds of temples in Qutub Minar and thousands more in rest of India) and enforcement tools in society (which was various kingdom ruled by Hindus who respected them and their views).

What morality and ethics and social behaviour is attcked is actually frozen in time since days of Raja Dahir or in many cases introduced due automatic defence mechanism of society (for example customs like Sati, Child marriage, Ghoonghat, Ivory bangles, inequality in Women freedom).

 

Given opportunity, with limited amount of freedom, Brahmins evolved to again influence the society. Its impact of that which is why India today is going toward caste nullification, social/religious/custom equality, gender equality and so on. Brahminism is a concept whose job is constantly improve Indian society

History won't ever be kind to Brahmins...  They will be blamed for weakening society or pushing way too much divide & backwardness which made country ripe for picking by invaders...  Which may or may not be right completely but either way they are blamed by all. 

 

Post Independence...  Brahmins Khatris and Parsis have built this country through their sweat and blood & pushed for modernization.  Their contribution is immense.  

LC's as much as they detest this but it is plain truth. 

 

 

[Gollum]

28 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

But you were talking about physical strength when you were talking about hockey. Its not like MH produces better food than TN. Making a note to try out vadapavs from Mumbai

I talked about physical strength of Selvam, why he isn't a guaranteed starter despite his skillset. He was getting physically bullied a lot in the FIH Pro League. 

 

Marathis too don't do that well in sports, just better than TN. Haryana, Punjab, North East are the gold standard. 

[Gollum]

This Tamil Brahmin angle was also pushed a lot in chess because most of our GMs till 10 years back were Iyers and Iyengars. But now you have non-Brahmins like Pragg, Gukesh, Arjun coming up nicely. And guess what, Vishy Anand (an Iyer) has been personally training candidates qualified Pragg, Vaishali and Gukesh for the last 4 years in his Soviet style academy in Chennai (other students like Arjun, Leon Luke, Nihal Sarin, Raunak Sadhwani). Our best chess coach is Ramesh RB, another Brahmin, who coached Aravind, Pragg to become GMs, still doing a lot for Indian chess. You think these guys care about caste or religion? They are working towards bigger goals like making India a chess superpower, preparing future world champions and training schoolkids to take down Carlsen in a few years time. Only jobless, stupid, hateful people will cast aspersions or bring in caste and divide people. 

 

This gatekeeping theory is far fetched. Why didn't Tam Brahms gatekeep chess, nobody would have raised an eyebrow because of their achievements (in contrast to TN cricket who can't win a freaking Ranji). All AICF top posts have been occupied by non-Brahmins, mostly Northies. Wonder why Vishy never got involved in all that politics then? 

[Real McCoy]

42 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I talked about physical strength of Selvam, why he isn't a guaranteed starter despite his skillset. He was getting physically bullied a lot in the FIH Pro League. 

 

Marathis too don't do that well in sports, just better than TN. Haryana, Punjab, North East are the gold standard. 

 

Fair enoguh. I see some people in city of the next gen who go to gym be musculuar and all but there is also skill involved. Its a combo of several factors why we don't see that many in sports.

[Vicks57]

45 minutes ago, Gollum said:

This Tamil Brahmin angle was also pushed a lot in chess because most of our GMs till 10 years back were Iyers and Iyengars. But now you have non-Brahmins like Pragg, Gukesh, Arjun coming up nicely. And guess what, Vishy Anand (an Iyer) has been personally training candidates qualified Pragg, Vaishali and Gukesh for the last 4 years in his Soviet style academy in Chennai (other students like Arjun, Leon Luke, Nihal Sarin, Raunak Sadhwani). Our best chess coach is Ramesh RB, another Brahmin, who coached Aravind, Pragg to become GMs, still doing a lot for Indian chess. You think these guys care about caste or religion? They are working towards bigger goals like making India a chess superpower, preparing future world champions and training schoolkids to take down Carlsen in a few years time. Only jobless, stupid, hateful people will cast aspersions or bring in caste and divide people. 

 

This gatekeeping theory is far fetched. Why didn't Tam Brahms gatekeep chess, nobody would have raised an eyebrow because of their achievements (in contrast to TN cricket who can't win a freaking Ranji). All AICF top posts have been occupied by non-Brahmins, mostly Northies. Wonder why Vishy never got involved in all that politics then? 

 

It is not possible to gatekeep individual sports.

 

Your success or failure depends on your selection in cricket or any team sport no matter your talent. Brahmins control the cricket coaching centers. They control the TNCA. Selectors are Brahmin. Close to ninety five percent of TN Players so far are Brahmin. 

 

In a sport like tennis, you need money to get coaching. Once you are economically stable enough to fund your tennis coaching, your results will show you whether you are good or not in pro circuit. Same goes for chess though the money required to get coaching is far less than tennis.

 

Of all the sports, tennis requires the most money for coaching and travel imo. Most tennis pros outside top 100 are broke.

 

Cricket is dominated by Brahmin lobby in TN.

 

Maharashtra, Punjab, Delhi, Haryana dominate Khelo India Youth games regularly. TN always finish in the top 9. Last Khelo India, TN finished at number 2. We were second behind Maharashtra.

 

Not sure if the below paragraph applies to you. Generally speaking, So based on convos in this forum:

 

 

NRI uncles in this forum are delusional. NRIs in the forum talking about Brahmin failed to do priestly duty, Kshatriya failed saving country, Vaishya failed business while sitting their asses in USA. I mean, I am laughing my ass off at these clowns. How are these NRIs stuck in a time warp and believe that certain caste should do certain job? 

 

Edited April 19 by Vicks57