Will Kohli retire as a top 5 Indian batter in tests?

[R!TTER]

41 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Imagine playing in this era where you have to play so many SENA games and then come home and play rank turners. Life is miserable if you are a batter.

That's a BS excuse, it's under Kohli only we got back to dank turners to win big series - it started with SA/2015 then 2017 vs Oz was also pretty bad, 2021 vs Eng, 2023 vs Oz, 2024 vs NZ although RGS is also responsible here! How come we made flatties vs WI/SL/SA/Bangers post 2015 & then went with turners against the big 2-3 tests sides? You know the answer to that, the games ending in 2 days is all on us the hosts

[Majestic]

Alright guys, enough is enough. There is no excuse for averaging 31 over a period of 5 years and now we have moved into 6 years. He is by far the worst batter in this team and his last 5-6 years performance has been as bad as anyone can have to retain a side.

 

He must be dropped from team because he is literally hogging that major spot of #4 averaging 31 in this decade and we are in 2025 now.

 

Pant

Jaiswal

Gill

Rohit

Jadeja

Rahul

 

All these guys average better than him, some are top order batters and some are middle order batters so no excuse of pitch being challenging or new ball being challenging can be given to defend Kohli’s terrible run and the very fact that he is still in the team is absolutely blasphemous. I have no right to defend him but it is also a matter of fact that Virat Kohli has become so big that human beings can’t drop him anymore. It is beyond the powers of any living creature except him who can drop him from the Test team.

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

Alright guys, enough is enough. There is no excuse for averaging 31 over a period of 5 years and now we have moved into 6 years. He is by far the worst batter in this team and his last 5-6 years performance has been as bad as anyone can have to retain a side.

 

He must be dropped from team because he is literally hogging that major spot of #4 averaging 31 in this decade and we are in 2025 now.

 

Pant

Jaiswal

Gill

Rohit

Jadeja

Rahul

 

All these guys average better than him, some are top order batters and some are middle order batters so no excuse of pitch being challenging or new ball being challenging can be given to defend Kohli’s terrible run and the very fact that he is still in the team is absolutely blasphemous. I have no right to defend him but it is also a matter of fact that Virat Kohli has become so big that human beings can’t drop him anymore. It is beyond the powers of any living creature except him who can drop him from the Test team.

You forgot to add the "/s" for sarcasm

[Muloghonto]

On 1/2/2025 at 9:09 AM, Majestic said:

2002 Eng and 2003 Aus were flatties. 2001 SA he batted at 6 and that is not even a standard SA track which India faces today. No comparison in SENA between Kohli and Viru for me. Viru never made enough efforts to see off the new ball. That’s a basic requirement of a world class test opener. What he did in 2006 tour of SA was even worse and deservingly got dropped for 1.5 years.

 

Uhh...where the fook do you think India would be in THIS test series without Bumrah ? Aussies would be piling on 500+ scores in first innings in almost every single test.
Aussies have always produced flatties in Sydney, MCG and Adelaide, while making pitches that have swing and bounce on first two days at gabba and just a bouncy fast wicket with little to no grass at WACA since the day Lillee retired.

And if you chuck in the fearsome Indian batting lineup of the 2000s against these bowlers, they too would rack up a lot more 300+ and 400+ at bare minimum.

Eng 2002 wasnt a flat pitch series at all. They just had very bad bowling that series and Indian batting did lights out.

Veeru saw off the new ball better than any opener of his era outside of Hayden and maybe Graeme smith in sheer consistency alone - people forget, that while kohli is highly inconsistent for a middle order bat but Veeru actually has stellar consistency % in terms of converting to 50+ scores per innings played- and the best way to see of a new ball is to score 50+ and best way to do it is Veeru way, where you are already 50+ as a batter by the 15th over of the innings.

Kohli is a better bat overseas than Veeru, but the gap isnt quite as large owing to the factor that Veeru's stats are misleading overseas ( NZ is not valid figures due to pitch tamperings and low scoring pitches all the time, ENG is a 1-1 for veeru - succeeded in his first tour as an opener- averaged 40 in England and failed in his last tour which was near the end of his career and certainy didnt get to play in England through his peak and he did well in Australia, plus WI of veeru's days were significantly better bowling unit than WI of Kohli's days because even Reon King + Merv Dillon+ Pedro collins were better bowlers by a country mile than the trash that WI had between 2008-2020 or so as a bowling unit.

It really does boil down to South Africa and kohli has been monster in South Africa while Veeru was a total flop. But then again, Veeru as opener his benchmark is to just average 35+ as opener in given overseas regions Kohli has to meet higher standards for middle order bat and at least average 40 to be considred success anywhere.

 

What it does boil down to though, is that Veeru is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Kohli at home - where a batsman is expected to play 50% of his entire career at the very least for any batsman and its not even close.

 

In India or on ANY spinning pitch- even if Aussies were dumb enough to think we are west indies and make raging turner at Sydney coz they had Warne and they were stoopid about how good Lara was against spin - I wouldn't trust kohli with a ten foot bat against the likes of Ashwin & Jadeja, let alone any subcontinent pitch raging turner and let alone against Kumble, Warne, Murali, etc.
Veeru on the other hand, he could be running a fever of 103F and shitting liquid, but if he were willing to wear a diaper under and go bat, i would be running to the bookies and fishing for good odds to bet that Veeru would come back for lunch at 150 not out even if the pitch was turning square and it was Murali on one end and Warne or kumble on another.

 

 

There is also the issue of where do i play veeru if veeru is not opening - say if 15 years from now, we see Jaiswal has panned out to have veeru-gavaskar like stats and is gavaskar good overseas while still not being Kohli at home. If so, then Veeru loses a spot in opener, but i would STILL play him in the middle order over kohli, given the fact that Kohli HIMSELF is not good enough to play alltime XI India at his favourite positions of #3 or #4 - those go to the Wall and to Sachu for sure, so he is at #5, which is smack middle of middle order in the spin attack time of the opposition and given the fact that veeru was a middle order bat forced to open on short notice at the highest level AND got there with minor scratches to his armor ( no opener is bulletproof in stats, except maybe Gavaskar) who absolutely ate spin for dinner to the point where a great like Ashwin says 'he hits me for 4 everywhere i bowl at the exact same spot so i didnt even feel like a bowler anymore wtf', i would pick HIM over Kohli for 5th spot.

And given what Veeru showed in his monster innings and his general resume as an opener,Veeru would also be an absolute BEAST at number 5 - if Veeru had 20 balls of spin to get his eye in,he could murder the best fast bowlers on the planet with the 2nd new ball with great ease - which he actually often did when he played his monster innings and was already well set when 2nd new ball came around - then even the likes of Actor went acting and coping at the jhappar of Veeru.

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

15 hours ago, Majestic said:

That’s 10. Got dropped around 2006 too. Good he got away with few SENa games there. Imagine playing in this era where you have to play so many SENA games and then come home and play rank turners. Life is miserable if you are a batter.

 

This was reality of Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly, Sidhu, etc. pretty much ALL of the 90s till mid 2000s, where India did simple formula - first test = raging turner ALL the time, if we win 1st test, persist with raging turner for 2nd, if we still win that, give flattie for 3rd test and call it a day' as pretty much the go-to formula.

I dunno which cricket you were watching, if any in the 90s, but faltu spinners like Rajesh Chauhan spun the ball as much as Swann on some of those pitches and the reason being Kumble - Kumble's SPECIALITY was pitches that were dusty and crumbly, where his top spinners would bite and shoot off the pitch like spitting cobra and batsmen would just be bowled or lbw plumb.

While only Kumble could exploit such pitches to their deadliest effect, because kumble was the generational master of the top spinner of all the bowlers who played of his time, if not alltime, it also generally aided spinners get bite and purchase off the pitch and balls spun a fair degree, even if it wasnt rank turners and 'darty' spinners like Bhajji also profited greatly from these pitches as darty offies also have a similar effective top spinner delivery.

Either way, i dunno where you are living in the fantasy of India giving flat pitches for home tests unless ur memory of the Veeru Sachu days start in 2007 or so.

Because 91 to like 2005 or so, Indian pitches = crumbly hell.

And not many batters did well on it from overseas. In fact i havent checked the stats, but i would go out on a limb and say that less foreign batsmen averaged 40+ in India the period i mentioned than in the 2010-now period.

Its just the likes of Sidhu, Sehwag, Azharuddin, Sachu were literally as much better than Kohli at playing spin than Kohli is better than Mitchell Marsh at playing pace.

People dont realize that those names in terms of playing spin alone are within the top 10 ALLTIME of playing spin as except for Lara, Sobers, Gavaskar & Graham Gooch, there are not that many names better at playing spin in history of cricket that i can think of.

People often forget the sheer talent we had against spin, where Sidhu was literally as good as Don bradman himself was against spin and if he ever got to the spin times and saw off the new ball- which wasnt that often - he would hammer the bejeezus outta even a bowler like Warne

 

[New guy]

Kohli's average below 47 now. 

 

https://tenor.com/br40g.gif

 

 

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Edited January 4, 2025 by New guy

[Lord]

In terms of impact even Pant will topple him.

[Manucrick]

No he won't 

My top 5 list 

Sachin 

Gavaskar

Dravid

sehwag

Vvs

[Ultimate_Game]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

In terms of impact even Pant will topple him.

 

Pant is already way ahead. Pant has innings which won us our best series in our history. He shows up when the chips are down instead of filling his boots when the score is 300/2.

[Bigg Brother]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

In terms of impact even Pant will topple him.

Pant already has. Gabba win, That lone hundred In SA, England(2021 home series), so many clutch knocks at 27 (despite 1 yr missed). Kohli has done more harm to test team than any premiere batter ever has done. Nothing player who is just dragging down the team every passing day..

[Vijy]

8 hours ago, Lord said:

In terms of impact even Pant will topple him.

Pant has toppled him a while back. So has Pujara, who was genuine impact player until 2018-19.

[The Hound]

Now that he's done in test cricket, does he makes India's top 5 OAT? 

[Sooda]

9 hours ago, The Hound said:

Now that he's done in test cricket, does he makes India's top 5 OAT? 

 

Nope.

 

Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Sehwag, Laxman 

[crictime]

Sachin Tendulkar

Sunil Gavaskar

Rahul Dravid

Virendra Sehwag

VVS

Virat Kohli

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

22 hours ago, The Hound said:

Now that he's done in test cricket, does he makes India's top 5 OAT? 

 

Nope. The Indian ATG Test team is:

 

Gavaskar (c)

Sehwag

Dravid

Tendulkar

VVS Laxman

Pant (wk)

Kapil

Jadeja

Zaheer/Kumble (Zak for SENA, Kumble for subcontinent)

Bumrah

Srinath

 

I would argue even Gundappa Vishwanath and Mohinder Amarnath are slightly ahead of Kohli.

 

The mark against Kohli is that in Tests he hasn't had any impact away from home. He hasn't won even one single Away Test for India. Kohli was an ATG batter in T20Is, a good ODI batter, and an average Test batter.

[vvvslaxman]

Plotted the comparison chart for Tendukar/Kohli averages. There was a brief period Kohli was ahead of Tendulkar. But Sachin sustained it far too long. Will be interesting to compare with other players and Comparison with him and contempoary players.

 

[StraightDrive26]

Top 4 batters are set in stone and no one has any doubts about these four.

 

1. Sachin

2. Gavaskar

3. Dravid

4. Sehwag

 

Number 5 is debatable as there are so many of them in the same bracket in terms of average among batters who at least scored 5000 Test runs. Kept it 5000 as there are players like V Hazare who averages 47 but only has 2000 Test runs.

 

Virat: 46.85

Laxman: 45.97

Azhar: 45.03

 

Then come Pujara, Ganguly, Vengsarkar and GR Vishwanath but keeping these 4 aside for now.

 

Among the three with at least with an average of 45 runs, Virat stands little tall due to his hundred count. He has 30 Test hundreds and 6 doubles. The next in terms of hundreds comes Azhar with 22. Laxman third with 17 but again he batted at 5 or 6 for majority of his career so kind of harsh on him.

 

If we look at their SENA records, Azhar comes short with an average of 38. His records in Australia and South Africa is mediocre at best. Laxman though has very similar SENA record to Virat. Laxman averages 40.44 and Virat averages 41.54. The main difference is that Virat has 12 hundreds in 48 Tests and Laxman only has 5 in 41 Tests. Laxman and Virat both struggled in England with averages of 34 and 33 respectively. In SA, Australia and New Zealand Laxman averages 40+, while Virat averages in high 40's in Australia and SA but struggles in NZ with an average of 36.

 

While this is neck and neck, Virat Kohli does edge Laxman by a small margin. There are two things which goes in favour of Virat, his record in SA, while Laxman does well, Virat played in an era where SA pitches were kind of a lottery, so to average 49 in SA is a phenomenal feat. His record at home as well on pitches which assisted spin extensively was phenomenal where he ended up with an average of 55.

 

So Virat surely ends up at number 5 for now among Test greats of India. If someone like Jaiswal ends up with 5000+ runs at a higher average, he might replace Virat in the future. 

 

For now though Virat does end up at number 5, it was expected though in 2019 that he might end up higher on the list but that was not to be.

 

1. SR Tendulkar

2. SM Gavaskar

3. RS Dravid

4. V Sehwag

5. V Kohli

 

 

 

[The Hound]

For me he does comes in at 5th . I'd not have an FTB sehwag (even if he had more impactful knocks) over someone who played majority of his test matches on spicy wickets, both in India and overseas. 

[putrevus]

Kohli is better than everyone else other than Sachin and Dravid. He is the greatest odi batsman so his legacy as batsman is far superior to anyone else other than Sachin.

 

Kohli was a victim of lack of support unlike Dravid and Sachin who played in one of the strongest batting lineups which always stunk under pressure.

Edited May 29, 2025 by putrevus

[Nileshkohli]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

Kohli is better than everyone else other than Sachin and Dravid. He is the greatest odi batsman so his legacy as batsman is far superior to anyone else other than Sachin.

 

Kohli was a victim of lack of support unlike Dravid and Sachin who played in one of the strongest batting lineups which always stunk under pressure.

Do u think he is better than sunny g in test?