Curious case of Mohali: selection conundrum?

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Rishi Dhawan doesnt play at Lahli. He plays for Himachal and they play at Dharmshala.

Sorry, you are right. Dharamsala is also quite pace friendly, right?

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Bhuvi and Jaddu are not alroudners. They are tailenders who can bat a bit.

 

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Philander and BK are not comparable as both are different type of bowlers.

 

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Problem is we are comparing BK bowling on green tops to Umesh on pattas. He is talking about BK can swing the ball both ways but forgets that you need conditions to get swing going. People do not understand the basic things and compare chalk and cheese. Ability to setting up a batsman means nothing if you do not have the tools to trouble batsmen on a flat pitch.

 

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

If people have actually watched matches not just follow cricinfo, they will know that even highly biased England commentators have praised both our pacers. It is that  England batsmen play pace better than our batsmen. If the same Anderson and Broad had bowled to England batsmen, they would not have been as successful as they were bowling against our batsmen.

 

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

but they have pace too. Both clocked 89-90 mph. Why these two things are mutually exclusive? Why not pace plus skills? A good bowler combines both together. Would Broad and Anderson be as effective on the same pitch if they had the skills but bowling at 125-130?

 

3 hours ago, Mosher said:

How many times have they played together in a test match? Though Umesh has not bowled badly till now, I want BK to play ahead of him on pattas and see how he performs in a few games. Then we can put this debate to rest. Similarly I want Umesh to be given chances on green pitches too. Poor guy has played most of his matches on pattas.

 

2 hours ago, Mosher said:

You are now comparing great bowler like Anderson and a really good bowler like Broad to Umesh??? They have got vastly different and better skill sets than both our pacers Shami and Umesh. Height, pace, bounce, reverse and leg cutters.

 

2 hours ago, Mosher said:

Please quote me where I have said pace is the only skill that matters for a bowler.

 

 

All very valid points.

Edited November 23, 2016 by express bowling

[beetle]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Not really, if you watched domestic cricket. Some wickets in UP does favor swing bowling in winters.

So bhuvi has to play only on pattas to prove himself else his stats don't count for much, while others get to prove themselves on all kinds of wickets and we judge them by their stats........

[beetle]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

Why does it have to be pace vs swing  ?

 

Isn't that the argument held against him that he is not fast enough because only phaaast bowlers can survive in tests ?

Even his abilty to swing is sometimes held against him....the conditions don't help swing so he should not play when he is as good or bad as the others in non swinging conditions. Who are the top guns who are setting the pattas on fire for us to keep him out for them????

 

Other than shami.....the other 3-4 are in the same bracket while bhuvi is magical when it swings ,so why discriminate?

[beetle]

2 hours ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

@radhika your support is affecetd by Bhuvi's kajrari aankhein.

That too...

[rkt.india]

22 minutes ago, radhika said:

So bhuvi has to play only on pattas to prove himself else his stats don't count for much, while others get to prove themselves on all kinds of wickets and we judge them by their stats........

It is not like he has some great stats anyway 41 wickets in 15 tests. What I mean to say is people must keep perspective and context in mind. We are comparing BK's performance on green tracks to other bowlers performance on pattas. Even Ishant got an 8-fer on a green track in SL. While we compare his performance on patta with BK's on green tracks. If he plays on green tracks, he too can take those wickets like first ODI against NZ at Dharmshala. If not for dropped catches, he could easily have had a 5-fer at Rajkot.

 

Umesh Might not have set things on fire on pattas, but he is one bowler who can make things happen when nothing is happening. He every now and then comes with wicket taking ball that change the game. You need such pacers on Indian pitches because most of the work is done by spinners. People very easily forget his performance against SA on a patta, but never forget to mention performance on a green pitch by BK.

[express bowling]

27 minutes ago, radhika said:

Isn't that the argument held against him that he is not fast enough because only phaaast bowlers can survive in tests ?

Even his abilty to swing is sometimes held against him....the conditions don't help swing so he should not play when he is as good or bad as the others in non swinging conditions. Who are the top guns who are setting the pattas on fire for us to keep him out for them????

 

Other than shami.....the other 3-4 are in the same bracket while bhuvi is magical when it swings ,so why discriminate?

 

No...only fast bowlers don't survive in tests...but fast-medium bowlers with skills  also do.

 

His ability to swing is not held against him at all....but people want him to develop the bowling style for pattas too. He has already improved his ability to reverse the ball and is moving in the right direction.

 

Tell me....now that he is bowling distinctly quicker than even a year back in test matches....hasn't it improved him as a bowler  and is he not getting many more test wickets  ?

 

It is the captains and coaches who have not played him on pattas and it is their opinion that matters the most in team selection.  Before his two five-wicket hauls in the last 2 test matches, he did not perform consistently in tests.  Had 29 wickets from 12 tests at an average of 36.  Why would he be the only  consideration in such circumstances  ?     Now that he is doing well....I  am sure he will get his chances on all  types of  tracks.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by express bowling

[beetle]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

No...only fast bowlers don't survive in tests...but fast-medium bowlers with skills  also do.

 

His ability to swing is not held against him at all....but people want him to develop the bowling style for pattas too. He has already improved his ability to reverse the ball and is moving in the right direction.

 

Tell me....now that he is bowling distinctly quicker than even a year back in test matches....hasn't it improved him as a bowler  and is he not getting many more test wickets  ?

 

It is the captains and coaches who have not played him on pattas and it is their opinion that matters the most in team selection.

May be the fast bowlers should also be asked to develop other skills because their present skills are not setting the world on fire.

Quote

 Before his two five-wicket hauls in the last 2 test matches, he did not perform consistently in tests.  Now that he is doing well....I  am sure he will get his chances on all  types of  tracks.

How many test matches has he played in the recent years?

Don't judge him by how he performed as a newcomer.He is a much improved bowler.Let us judge him by his recent performances in the few tests that he has got to play and give him a decent run. 

 

Ishant and Umesh have also got a very long run to prove themselves.Let him get a  chance to prove himself .

 

[express bowling]

14 minutes ago, radhika said:

May be the fast bowlers should also be asked to develop other skills because their present skills are not setting the world on fire.

Absolutely.  The quick bowlers must improve their skills and the skilled medium-fast bowlers must improve their pace/ bounce.

 

India does not have a pace bowling culture and this results in unfinished products on either front....which is why we have never produced a single seamer  with average of  25  or less  in test matches.

 

Quote

How many test matches has he played in the recent years?

Don't judge him by how he performed as a newcomer.He is a much improved bowler.Let us judge him by his recent performances in the few tests that he has got to play and give him a decent run. 

Ishant and Umesh have also got a very long run to prove themselves.Let him get a  chance to prove himself .

 

Ishant has but Umesh has not....only 23 tests in 5 years....has never played a test in England, South Africa and New Zealand...the best places for fast-swing bowlers like him.

 

The team management cannot think from the point of view of either Umesh or Bhuvi  but   pick the bowlers they think will help them most.

 

I am not judging Bhuvi now but want both Umesh and Bhuvi to improve further.

Edited November 23, 2016 by express bowling

[speedster]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Absolutely.  The quick bowlers must improve their skills and the skilled medium-fast bowlers must improve their pace/ bounce.

 

India does not have a pace bowling culture and this results in unfinished products on either front....which is why we have never produced a single seamer  with average of  25  or less  in test matches.

 

Ishant has but Umesh has not....only 23 tests in 5 years....has never played a test in England, South Africa and New Zealand...the best places for fast-swing bowlers like him.

 

The team management cannot think from the point of view of either Umesh or Bhuvi  but   pick the bowlers they think will help them most.

 

I am not judging Bhuvi now but want both Umesh and Bhuvi to improve further.

Correct, Umesh's progress was halted by his injury in the last home series against England, he was shaping up quite well till then. Post that he went through a long period on away tours of South Africa, New Zealand etc when he wasn't played, he hasn't looked the same bowler since, there have been sporadic performances (World Cup) but nothing in the way of consistency. Also and I might be off a bit on this, but I feel he hasn't been as quick as he was earlier either, it seems to me that he still touches the late 140s but probably not as consistently as earlier, he may not necessarily have lost pace but maybe just doesn't have the confidence to go all out.

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Umesh Might not have set things on fire on pattas, but he is one bowler who can make things happen when nothing is happening. He every now and then comes with wicket taking ball that change the game. You need such pacers on Indian pitches because most of the work is done by spinners.

+1.  As much as I'm a Bhuvi fan who believes he deserves a chance even on non-helpful tracks, what rkt.India has posted is an undeniable fact.  And its also a fact that Yadav has demonstrated he can be wicket taking with the old ball (reverse) on a completely dead pitch, this is something Bhuvi has yet to show. Unfortunately for Bhuvi, his extended run on unhelpful tracks came at a time where he was not at his best in terms of fitness and pace.  Now maybe that he's back to his best, he can show something new.  But its not an open and shut case, by any means.  And Bhuvi fans have to admit, Yadav has improved significantly over the last few games - no longer a spray gun - not quite there yet, wickets haven't been there yet, but doesn't leak runs like he used to, and still bowls those jaffas now and again.  

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

+1.  As much as I'm a Bhuvi fan who believes he deserves a chance even on non-helpful tracks, what rkt.India has posted is an undeniable fact.  And its also a fact that Yadav has demonstrated he can be wicket taking with the old ball (reverse) on a completely dead pitch, this is something Bhuvi has yet to show. Unfortunately for Bhuvi, his extended run on unhelpful tracks came at a time where he was not at his best in terms of fitness and pace.  Now maybe that he's back to his best, he can show something new.  But its not an open and shut case, by any means.  And Bhuvi fans have to admit, Yadav has improved significantly over the last few games - no longer a spray gun - not quite there yet, wickets haven't been there yet, but doesn't leak runs like he used to, and still bowls those jaffas now and again.  

He's certainly got a bit more accuracy, but I also feel he's lost a bit of zip (not necessarily pace).

[Samcric]

13 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Philander and BK are not comparable as both are different type of bowlers.

Agreed. In fact, I generally respect your views on seamers on this forum. And having been a keeper-batsman, I may not know much at all about fast bowling. But my reasons for trying Bhuvi instead of Umesh are rather simplistic and I am happy to be corrected if you can help me understand the below. I can list down a few things below based on which we compare the two and hopefully come to a conclusion on who could be a better bowler on non-green pitches (assumption being that the Indian team management only play Bhuvi when they see some grass on the pitch). I am happy to accept that Umesh may be the right choice but want to understand why.

• Chances based on performances: Bhuvi has played only 3 matches this year and done exceptionally well. If he is not even allowed to play on pattas, how can we judge how good or bad he will turn out to be. On the other hand, Umesh hasn't got the opportunity to play on green pitches so we don't know if he would have done better than Bhuvi. But what we do know is that Shami did play along with Bhuvi in all of those 3 matches and by and large Bhuvi has out-bowled him in terms of wickets. I understand it is very small dataset for an entire year but unfortunately that is all we have. All the more reason to provide chances to Bhuvi - may be he will return worse figures than Umesh but there is only one way to know. To play BK.
• Pace and control: You are right that pace, control and skills need not be exclusive to each other. Unfortunately, we have a situation where we are comparing two players where one seems to lack pace and other control. Umesh invariably drifts to the pads or bowls way outside off. If Umesh can bowl 5-6 outswingers, pitching on the offstump line, in an over at the beginning of an innings, I would be his biggest fan irrespective of how many wickets he picks up. He does not test the batsmen consistently enough. Bowlers with control can string maidens together. I can't recall Umesh doing this to the opening batsmen. If batsmen leave alone two outswingers outside offstump he drifts on to the pads trying for that magic ball on legstump that takes off the top of offstump. I am not saying that BK is a McGrath but an economy rate of 1.96 this year shows that he has much better control. Recently, he has added a bit of pace to his bowling as well. He bowls in the range of 135-140Ks and whether or not that is enough needs to be seen. It was enough for bowlers like Zaheer. I agree with you that 125-130K is not enough for BK but I think he is 10K faster than that now.
• New-ball swing: I completely agree with you that swing depends on the conditions. But very rarely have I seen BK not swing the ball at all when its new except those 1-2 tests in Australia where I think he went for more than 100 runs for first and only time till now. His wrist position is only slightly different for in and outswing and batsmen need to see and pick the seam orientation in the air. As an opening batsmen, it is always more difficult to face bowlers who can bowl both in&out swing. Best example recently was when he got Ross Taylor to edge one after bowling 2 inswingers. These are the skills that you need in your opening bowler. Please let me know if there is any reason why you think Umesh is a better new-ball bowler than Bhuvi.
• Reverse Swing: This seems to be the main reason why Umesh seems to play on abrasive pitches. I was very happy for Umesh after that Delhi test against SA. Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to repeat the same kind of performance. I felt that either the English batsmen played his reverse swing very well or he didn't bowl the right lines. Most of his balls that reversed were directed at the leg stump. Yes, he did get rid of Bairstow at an important point in the match, but can we really justify picking up a bowler for just one wicket in an entire test match? If he is still so good with reverse swing, don't you think it is fair to expect 2-3 wickets in a match. I mean, with the same logic, if the conditions help traditional swing, we would expect BK to take at least 2-3 wickets in the match right? What am I missing here?
• Intelligence and bowling to a plan: This is the biggest complaint that I have with Umesh. He never seems to have a plan or pattern to set up a batsman. e.g. bowl a well-directed bouncer followed up with full-pitched sucker ball. And if I am the captain and I want to take control of the game on a flat pitch that isn't doing anything then I would want the bowlers to bowl one side of the wicket (or some other plan for a specific batsman) and I would want my bowlers to bowl consistently in particular areas. Can't recollect Umesh being able to consistently bowl in certain areas. Always balls a release ball that eases things a whole lot for the batsman.

At the end of the day, I am not trying to say that BK is the best fast bowler that ever was and god-sent or anything to that effect. My point, merely, is that the guy has done well in the limited opportunities he has got recently and should be given more chances to prove himself as either worthy or not worthy to be the second seamer on all kinds of pitches. Particularly because of the reason that Umesh has shown enough of short-comings.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Samcric

[Temujin Khaghan]

how can we drop umesh, because rahane, vijay, saha (2) dropped 4 catches off his bowling?

how can we punish the bowler for the mistakes made by the slips?

[Temujin Khaghan]

heck i forgot that bhuvi is playing...

first 5 batsmen

ash+saha + shami compulsory picks

remaining 3 places - bhuvi (mohali swing), jayant, umesh

 

decent team

 

 

[MCcricket]

BK would only de discussed in a Associate or a on the fringe team, a bowler bowling 128 to 135 K, coming from a low point of delivery, no bounce, only can swing new ball, so what are we talking about, to me even Pandya can be a more useful test bowler then BK, potentially

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, MCcricket said:

BK would only de discussed in a Associate or a on the fringe team, a bowler bowling 128 to 135 K, coming from a low point of delivery, no bounce, only can swing new ball, so what are we talking about, to me even Pandya can be a more useful test bowler then BK, potentially

Pandya is a lesser bowler than BK, and a lesser batsman too. Only his fielding is in his favour.

[MCcricket]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

Pandya is a lesser bowler than BK, and a lesser batsman too. Only his fielding is in his favour.

Pandya in his short career has shown, he has pace, can seam n swing the ball and also can bowl wicket taking balls n peg the batsmen on the back door, n that's more then enough to be successful now it will be his temperament, fitness n commitment.

BK is very one dimensional and cannot understand at all people talking about him like he is Steyn, he can only be a filler n condition specific bowler.

Edited November 24, 2016 by MCcricket

[Cricketics]

5 hours ago, MCcricket said:

Pandya in his short career has shown, he has pace, can seam n swing the ball and also can bowl wicket taking balls n peg the batsmen on the back door, n that's more then enough to be successful now it will be his temperament, fitness n commitment.

BK is very one dimensional and cannot understand at all people talking about him like he is Steam, he can only be a filler n condition specific bowler.

You need to refer to some of the bowling spells of BK in ODI series against Pakistan few years ago and see what he did there. The guy clearly better than some of the other bowlers. Pandya is like a make shift bowler which Dhoni was using to get free overs in. I have nothing against Pandya, and I hope he improves and become even a better bowler, but he is way out of the league of other Indian bowlers.

 

Here is the category of Indian bowlers for me. This includes both test and odi bowlers even though some might not play either format.

A - SHAMI, BHUVNESHWAR, BUMRAH

B - UMESH, ISHANT

C - MANY OF THEM, LIKE PANKAJ SINGH

D - BINNY, PANDYA ETC

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

You need to refer to some of the bowling spells of BK in ODI series against Pakistan few years ago and see what he did there. The guy clearly better than some of the other bowlers. Pandya is like a make shift bowler which Dhoni was using to get free overs in. I have nothing against Pandya, and I hope he improves and become even a better bowler, but he is way out of the league of other Indian bowlers.

 

Here is the category of Indian bowlers for me

A - SHAMI, BHUVNESHWAR, BUMRAH

B - UMESH, ISHANT

C - MANY OF THEM, LIKE PANKAJ SINGH

D - BINNY, PANDYA ETC

Bumrah is not long-format bowler.