Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Texy

Belgium bans halal and kosher slaughter methods which see animals killed without being stunned first

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Texy said:

is halal a cruel way to slaughter ?

 

as a doctor should you should tell us whether halal killing is more painful to the animals or not :hehe:

halal is definitely cruel and inhumane  .. our desi way of killing ( just kill ) is also cruel as well 

 

bolting is the most human way of killing the animals .. just put a bullet in the head , painless death

 

1274CfiNRCLHVGri4DvXSIw-1.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, velu said:

 

as a doctor should you should tell us whether halal killing is more painful to the animals or not :hehe:

halal is definitely cruel and inhumane  .. our desi way of killing ( just kill ) is also cruel as well 

 

bolting is the most human way of killing the animals .. just put a bullet in the head , painless death

 

1274CfiNRCLHVGri4DvXSIw-1.png

Our traditional method is jhatka , means quickly killed . It doesn't matter whether you put bullet in head or severe throad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slaughtering Halal after Stunning: 

Belgium is late, while this modified method of Halal/Kosher slaughtering (after being stunned first) has already been in effect in many places of Europe for many years. And it seems to be the BEST way of slaughtering. 

 

Kosher/Halal way of slaughtering was not invented by Judaism/Islam:

It is very important to note that Judaism/Islam were not the inventors of kosher/halal way of slaughtering, but it were the ancient HUNTERS who invented this way of slaughtering the animals in the jungles. 

For Jhatka (instant decapitation), one needs a Big Heavy Axe, to strike through the throat of animal in one strike. It was impossible for Hunters to carry such equipment during chase of animals. It was easy for them to have small knives for slitting the under half throat of animals cutting the carotid arteries, jugular veins and windpipe. 

 

Thus, Judaism/Islam took this way of slaughtering from the hunters. They ONLY added recitation of prayers before slaughtering, and gave it the name of kosher/halal. 

 

 

Different Types of Slaughtering:

 

1. Slitting the arteries/veins near the heart. 
Useful for big animals like pigs, cattle and Camels. 

Even Muslims have to use this method while slaughtering the Camels. 

 

2. Slitting the under half of the throat (presently commonly known as kosher/halal).
Useful only for small animals like sheep, goats, while their throat is not so big.

fig24.jpg

 

3. Jhatka (Old Sikh Style)

Not possible while Hunting.

Only possible in slaughter hauses. 

Not suitable for big animals like cattle and camels while their throats are big and difficult to accomplish the task in one blow. 

 

4. Modern Stunning Method:

By far the best way. After stunning, one can use any of the above mentioned 3 methods and animal is not going to feel the pain. 

 

 

Pain: Jhatka VS Halal:

6 hours ago, Texy said:

is halal a cruel way to slaughter ?

Unfortunately, problem is not LIMITED to the pain ONLY. There are other factors too. The list goes on like this:

 

1. Pain

2. Tenderness of meat

3. Taste of meat. 

4. Long lasting of meat

 

 

(1) Pain

Halal seems to be more painful to the animals than Jhatka (even which is done without stunning, like the Sikhs do in India).  

 

Although Muslims present a study of 1978 by a German Scientist Schulze, which claimed that drainage of blood is fast in Halal, and thus animal looses conscious within 10 seconds and thus stops feeling the pain within few seconds and thus it is more human than Jhatka. They cite one study in 1978 by a German doctor Dr. Schulze which showed these results. 

 

But more modern research denies Dr. Sculze results.

 

The more modern researchers showed that the pain originates from cutting throat nerves, not from the loss of blood, suggesting the severed nerves send pain signals until the time of death (even after animal is unconscious due to loss of blood). Finally, the researchers stunned animals 5 seconds after incision and showed that this makes the pain signal disappear instantly (link). 

 

Pain is no more relevant after the introduction of Stunning Method:

I strongly believe this discussion about pain is no more needed after the introduction to the Stunning method. 

Muslims also allow the stunning before their Halal, while Sikhs also have absolutely no problem with stunning before Jhatka. This stunning is better than both traditional halal and traditional Jhatka. 

 

Stunning+Slitting the arteries/veins is the BEST Human method Today:

As compared to the traditional Jhatka, the traditional Halal meat produced the best meat, having these qualities:

2. Tenderness of meat

3. Taste of meat. 

4. Long lasting of meat

It is achieved while animal stayed alive longer and blood didn't clotted, and kept on draining in Halal method.

Please read this detailed report by Times of India (link).

 

I am an ex-Muslim. I ate Halal meat whole of my life. But after becoming atheist, I also tried non-Halal meat. It was my observation too that non-Halal was missing something. I didn't know about it initially, but now I know what the reason was.

 

I was confused at that time while still the meat from the Halal Muslim Shops was tasting better to me than the non-Halal shops. And I was wondering if really Divine Allah exists and He knows humans better then us ourselves? 

 

But this problem was solved quickly when I came to know that Halal way of slaughtering has nothing to do with Islam, while Halal means only saying prayer. While this method itself is actually invented by the hunters even before the advent of  Islam and Judaism. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Slaughtering Halal after Stunning: 

Belgium is late, while this modified method of Halal/Kosher slaughtering (after being stunned first) has already been in effect in many places of Europe for many years. And it seems to be the BEST way of slaughtering. 

 

Kosher/Halal way of slaughtering was not invented by Judaism/Islam:

It is very important to note that Judaism/Islam were not the inventors of kosher/halal way of slaughtering, but it were the ancient HUNTERS who invented this way of slaughtering the animals in the jungles. 

For Jhatka (instant decapitation), one needs a Big Heavy Axe, to strike through the throat of animal in one strike. It was impossible for Hunters to carry such equipment during chase of animals. It was easy for them to have small knives for slitting the under half throat of animals cutting the carotid arteries, jugular veins and windpipe. 

 

Thus, Judaism/Islam took this way of slaughtering from the hunters. They ONLY added recitation of prayers before slaughtering, and gave it the name of kosher/halal. 

 

 

Different Types of Slaughtering:

 

1. Slitting the arteries/veins near the heart. 
Useful for big animals like pigs, cattle and Camels. 

Even Muslims have to use this method while slaughtering the Camels. 

 

2. Slitting the under half of the throat (presently commonly known as kosher/halal).
Useful only for small animals like sheep, goats, while their throat is not so big.

fig24.jpg

 

3. Jhatka (Old Sikh Style)

Not possible while Hunting.

Only possible in slaughter hauses. 

Not suitable for big animals like cattle and camels while their throats are big and difficult to accomplish the task in one blow. 

 

4. Modern Stunning Method:

By far the best way. After stunning, one can use any of the above mentioned 3 methods and animal is not going to feel the pain. 

 

 

Pain: Jhatka VS Halal:

Unfortunately, problem is not LIMITED to the pain ONLY. There are other factors too. The list goes on like this:

 

1. Pain

2. Tenderness of meat

3. Taste of meat. 

4. Long lasting of meat

 

 

(1) Pain

Halal seems to be more painful to the animals than Jhatka (even which is done without stunning, like the Sikhs do in India).  

 

Although Muslims present a study of 1978 by a German Scientist Schulze, which claimed that drainage of blood is fast in Halal, and thus animal looses conscious within 10 seconds and thus stops feeling the pain within few seconds and thus it is more human than Jhatka. They cite one study in 1978 by a German doctor Dr. Schulze which showed these results. 

 

But more modern research denies Dr. Sculze results.

 

The more modern researchers showed that the pain originates from cutting throat nerves, not from the loss of blood, suggesting the severed nerves send pain signals until the time of death (even after animal is unconscious due to loss of blood). Finally, the researchers stunned animals 5 seconds after incision and showed that this makes the pain signal disappear instantly (link). 

 

Pain is no more relevant after the introduction of Stunning Method:

I strongly believe this discussion about pain is no more needed after the introduction to the Stunning method. 

Muslims also allow the stunning before their Halal, while Sikhs also have absolutely no problem with stunning before Jhatka. This stunning is better than both traditional halal and traditional Jhatka. 

 

Stunning+Slitting the arteries/veins is the BEST Human method Today:

As compared to the traditional Jhatka, the traditional Halal meat produced the best meat, having these qualities:

2. Tenderness of meat

3. Taste of meat. 

4. Long lasting of meat

It is achieved while animal stayed alive longer and blood didn't clotted, and kept on draining in Halal method.

Please read this detailed report by Times of India (link).

 

I am an ex-Muslim. I ate Halal meat whole of my life. But after becoming atheist, I also tried non-Halal meat. It was my observation too that non-Halal was missing something. I didn't know about it initially, but now I know what the reason was.

 

I was confused at that time while still the meat from the Halal Muslim Shops was tasting better to me than the non-Halal shops. And I was wondering if really Divine Allah exists and He knows humans better then us ourselves? 

 

But this problem was solved quickly when I came to know that Halal way of slaughtering has nothing to do with Islam, while Halal means only saying prayer. While this method itself is actually invented by the hunters even before the advent of  Islam and Judaism. 

 

Some of the softest, melt in your mouth beef i've eaten is from stun slaughter. So i totally am not buying this whole 'softer beef from halal' nonsense. Especially since in slitting the throat method, the animal is aware its dying and therefore tenses up(seen with my own two eyes). Even if it were not the case, i am not willing to inflict extra cruelty for some imaginary softness of the meat that doesn't exist in the first place. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s about time.

 

Here in the U.K. halal meat is being imposed on the public. Whether it is in restaurants, schools or the workplace. It’s too much considering that Muslims are not in high enough numbers to justify this.

 

I can only hope that this ruling will also happen here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Some of the softest, melt in your mouth beef i've eaten is from stun slaughter. So i totally am not buying this whole 'softer beef from halal' nonsense. Especially since in slitting the throat method, the animal is aware its dying and therefore tenses up(seen with my own two eyes). Even if it were not the case, i am not willing to inflict extra cruelty for some imaginary softness of the meat that doesn't exist in the first place. 

There are other factors also involved. Like if it is 100% grass fed beef is, or if it has been dry aged for several weeks, then such beef is much softer and of superior quality than grain fed beef, which is tough and not tasty and even slaughtering it in Halal is not going to change the actual Quality of the meat.

 

But in general, Jhatka animal does not bleed, and blood becomes clotted, which ultimately effects the taste, tenderness and such meat also becomes bad after short time while blood does not stays fresh longer than meat. Blood also contains more germs and microbes load (link). 

 

If you choose Jhatka for less suffering of an animal, then it is your personal choice and should be respected. 

 

I also don't want the animals to suffer unnecessarily, but the question of pain becomes irrelevant due to stunning in the western countries (both in Jhatka and non-Jhatka methods).

 

Edited by Alam_dar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

There are other factors also involved. Like if it is 100% grass fed beef is, or if it has been dry aged for several weeks, then such beef is much softer and of superior quality than grain fed beef, which is tough and not tasty and even slaughtering it in Halal is not going to change the actual Quality of the meat.

Ageing the beef makes it softer- far softer than any killing method does. So spare the animal extra suffering and age it is my take. 

5 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

But in general, Jhatka animal does not bleed, and blood becomes clotted, which ultimately effects the taste, tenderness and such meat also becomes bad after short time while blood does not stays fresh longer than meat. Blood also contains more germs and microbes load (link). 

 

If you choose Jhatka for less suffering of an animal, then it is your personal choice and should be respected. 

 

I also don't want the animals to suffer unnecessarily, but the question of pain becomes irrelevant due to stunning in the western countries (both in Jhatka and non-Jhatka methods).

 

i am all about bullet to the brain stem, bud. Instant death.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, velu said:

@Alam_dar  why bone marrows are halal , we cant drain blood from marrows 

I don't think I can answer it, or any Muslim can answer it. Perhaps Muhammad/Allah should come themselves to answer this question. 

 

Marrow and Brain are super foods like other organs Heart, Liver, Kidney, tongue. 

 

Marrow has the best taste. One must eat a lot of organs in order to get optimal health. Especially marrow is good for the children. 

 

Do you know "food Tourist" Mark Wiens? In this video, he is eating "Chapli Kabab with Marrow" in Pushtoon Area. Please watch how he went crazy for these Kababs. Don't miss to enjoy it.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Marrow has the best taste. One must eat a lot of organs in order to get optimal health. Especially marrow is good for the children. 

 

 

i follow "The food ranger" but mark weins has more subscibers than the food ranger .. 

even i like the taste of bone marrows .. i dont eat organs other than liver

 

these minced meat patty/nuggets are bigger than dosas :lol: 

Edited by velu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, velu said:

 

i follow "The food ranger" but mark weins has more subscibers than the food ranger .. 

even i like the taste of bone marrows .. i dont eat organs other than liver

 

these minced meat patty/nuggets are bigger than dosas :lol: 

What a shame, I have not eaten Dosa in my entire life. 

 

I got North Indian friends during the college time in the hostel, but there mothers were feeding them with their own hands, and thus they were not even able to fry an egg properly. What a shame again. 

 

It seems, the Indian Sub-Continent MEN are best in eating in the whole world, but they are worst in cooking in the whole world too. 

 

In Pakistan, people have no idea what Dosa is. They know very little about South India. 

 

Edited by Alam_dar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mishra said:

Even animals kill other animals as quickly as possible.

Killing is cruel. Killing Halal way is one step ahead of beastly behaviour.

 

 

Worse the explanation given to subjecting them to extreme pain in their last moments of their lives, is..

 - It tastes better

- More purer meat (bringing in religion)

 

PETA should be campaigning against these practices when they get time off from complaining about subjecting pets to noise from diwali crackers. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mishra said:

Even animals kill other animals as quickly as possible.

Killing is cruel. Killing Halal way is one step ahead of beastly behaviour.

 

I am afraid this is a misinformation.

It often happens that predators eat their prey alive.

The most human way that has been adopted by the predators is when they attack the neck and cut the WINDPIPE. But still this is very painful for the prey as blood still circulating and prey feels the complete pain. 

 

While hunters way of slitting the under half of throat (known as Halal today) is much more human, while cutting of the carotid arteries takes 10 seconds (for small animals like sheep) to 30 seconds (for larger animals like cattle), and after than animal is unconscious due to the lack of blood in the brain. Then there are still unintentional movements in the muscles, but they are cramps which are caused due to the lack of blood. 

 

Unfortunately, it is the NATURE which is cruel. 

Look how lions are eating their prey alive

 

Edited by Alam_dar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

I am afraid this is a misinformation.

It often happens that predators eat their prey alive.

The most human way that has been adopted by the predators is when they attack the neck and cut the WINDPIPE. But still this is very painful for the prey as blood still circulating and prey feels the complete pain. 

 

While hunters way of slitting the under half of throat (known as Halal today) is much more human, while cutting of the carotid arteries takes 10 seconds to 30 seconds, and after than animal is unconscious due to the lack of blood in the brain. Then there are still unintentional movements in the muscles, but they are cramps which are caused due to the lack of blood. 

 

Unfortunately, it is the NATURE which is cruel. 

Look how lions are eating their prey alive

 

 

had seen videos of hyenas eating a buffalo alive because they were unbale to kill the buffalo outright ..

it also depends on the animals .. owl will kill its prey and then it will swallow whole , but eagles eat its prey alive and it remove the feathers before killing it ..

prey caught by tiger or leopard is lucky because they will kill it asap , but prey caught by wolves , wild dogs and hyenas have a painful slow death

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2019 at 3:34 AM, Singh bling said:

severe throad

that halal. severe throat and let the blood out. It's cruel as it keeps the animal in agony for longer. It makes the blood come out of the veins but there are other ways to dispense off blood for hygiene.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

I am afraid this is a misinformation.

It often happens that predators eat their prey alive.

The most human way that has been adopted by the predators is when they attack the neck and cut the WINDPIPE. But still this is very painful for the prey as blood still circulating and prey feels the complete pain. 

 

While hunters way of slitting the under half of throat (known as Halal today) is much more human, while cutting of the carotid arteries takes 10 seconds (for small animals like sheep) to 30 seconds (for larger animals like cattle), and after than animal is unconscious due to the lack of blood in the brain. Then there are still unintentional movements in the muscles, but they are cramps which are caused due to the lack of blood. 

 

Unfortunately, it is the NATURE which is cruel. 

Look how lions are eating their prey alive

 

stunning them before halal is better. but i guess Islam won't allow that as they do not want to reform. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Worse the explanation given to subjecting them to extreme pain in their last moments of their lives, is..

 - It tastes better

- More purer meat (bringing in religion)

 

PETA should be campaigning against these practices when they get time off from complaining about subjecting pets to noise from diwali crackers. 

 

 

There is no problem in making scientific studies about different types of slaughtering methods and their benefits or harms, and finding out the optimal way. 

 

The support or opposition to any method should not happen due to the religious reasons, but only due to the scientific reasons. 

 

This debate in India will have several angles to it. For example:

 

1. Pain Debate

2. Halal VS Jhatka Debate 

3. Total ban debate

4. Sacrifice, stunning etc.

 

Pain Debate is most important one, and the solution is which Europe followed i.e. stunning the animal. Afterwards it makes no difference if one kills in Halal style or Jhatka style. 

 

Halal VS Jhatka debate is complex. 

It is going to bring no benefits if we try only to criticize/demonize Halal and Islam without criticizing Jhatka and Sikh/Hindu religion. 

Muslims will be able to very easily counter this one sided campaign. 

 

Reasons is this that Muslims come up with a scientific study which shows that death (unconsciousness) is caused within 10 seconds (for sheep/goats) due to lack of blood, and it is the same for Jhatka too where death (unconsciousness) is caused due to the lack of blood too. 

 

But the difference is this that in Jhatka, the "Spinal Cord" is also cut. Due to this, the nerves going to heart are also cut off immediately, and the heart stops beating (i.e. immediate heart attack in many cases), and thus the blood also stops running in the veins and arteries. 

 

But there are cases where the animal does not get this immediate heart attack after Jhatka, and the heart keeps on beating. In this scenario, animal keeps it's movements almost just like in Halal slaughter. 

 

Please watch the following video where Jhatka has been done, but still the animal is able to do the movements after many seconds, while the animal didn't get the heart attack. 

 

Thus Muslim argument is this that: 

 

1. Amount of pain felt by the animal before becoming unconscious in both Jhatka and Halal is exactly the same, while death (unconsciousness) is  due to the lack of blood, which is same in both methods. 

 

2. And even if the heart keeps on beating, and animal is able to make unintentional moves due to cramps, still animal is unable to feel this pain while brain is already dead. 

 

3. They also cite that Jhatka may be suitable for small animals like goats/sheep, but for bigger buffalo and cows, it is not suitable and people have to strike multiple times to achieve the goal. 

 

4. They claim pain difference in Jhatka Vs Halal in negligible (if any), while Halal is producing superior hygienic meat. 

 

 

Muslims will keep on boasting that Halal Meat is hygienic and better than Jhatka:

 

All Scientific studies are proving that blood carries germs, bacteria and TOXINS. And You cannot stop Muslims from boasting this and using it as an argument that Islam is the true religion. 


You cannot stop Muslims from doing this propaganda. All Muslim population has already been brainwashed under this propaganda. Even many Western people also become confused by looking at the scientific proofs that are presented by the Muslim preachers. Even in India, you could see the scientific study in "Times of India" (posted above) where Hindu Researcher was fully convinced with Muslim arguments in light of his scientific research. 

 

You are not going to win this propaganda war against Muslims by simply coming up with the Pain argument. Especially, when Stunning+Halal method has also been introduced after which Pain argument becomes totally irrelevant. 

 

 

Only way to stop Muslim Propaganda is to make world realize that practice of Halal has nothing to do with Islam: 

 

As I already mentioned earlier, Halal slaughter was not invented by Muslims, but it was the preferred way by the Hunters before Islam. 

The old pre Islamic Arabia had already been using this method to kill the camels and sheep even before Islam. 

Therefore, the credit of this method does not go to Islam in any way. Muhammad was simply following the practice of the pre Islamic Arabian custom. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Vilander said:

stunning them before halal is better. but i guess Islam won't allow that as they do not want to reform. 

It seems heavy majority of Muslims have already accepted it, and fatwas by Al-Azhar university, Saudi Muftis and Shia Iranian Mujtahids all have allowed the Muslims in Europe to eat the meat of that animal which has been slaughtered in Halal way after stunning. 

 

There are very few voices among Muslims which are still opposing the stunning process. 

 

I believe that in India, stunning law will get more resistance by Muslims as compared to Europe, where Muslims were helpless against strict laws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, velu said:

 

i follow "The food ranger" but mark weins has more subscibers than the food ranger .. 

even i like the taste of bone marrows .. i dont eat organs other than liver

 

 

I forgot to mention that liver is the least tasting organ (along with kidney, tribe). 

Heart and tongue are much tastier, but people don't show enough courage to eat them. 

Testicles and udder taste even better than heart- They are really soft and tasty, but people are most afraid of them. 

While marrow and brain are perhaps the most tasty organs. 

Nevertheless, liver has the most nutritional value among them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

I forgot to mention that liver is the least tasting organ (along with kidney, tribe). 

Heart and tongue are much tastier, but people don't show enough courage to eat them. 

Testicles and udder taste even better than heart- They are really soft and tasty, but people are most afraid of them. 

While marrow and brain are perhaps the most tasty organs. 

Nevertheless, liver has the most nutritional value among them. 

Completely disagree. 

I like the taste of liver & kidneys more than heart.  Testicles taste bad. Brain - animal brain tasted like tasteless fat, fish brains is a different story. 

Taste is a personal choice - what is tasty to me isnt tasty to others and vice versa.

 

Liver is marginal in its nutritonal value because its full of toxins. Its a great source of iron but eating it more than once a month or so is bad for health.

Edited by Muloghonto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

WHat is involved in stunning? 

basically stunning is inducing seizures in the animal using a high voltage current from a stun-gun to the head/brain stem. The rationale is, it is more humane, because when your brain is undergoing seizure, it cannot feel pain. 

So stunning before slicing through the neck basically blocks the pain/anxiety sensation to the animal.


The best way is a bullet to the brain stem that immediately severs all pain receptors from the body and the brain itself cannot feel pain (ie, if you are kept concious and someone exposed your brain and touched it, you will not feel the touch to the brain). but industrially speaking, its expensive and dangerous to shoot animals in the back of the head several million times per day.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/7/2019 at 10:35 PM, Texy said:

I mean when you cut the animal's throat and watch it bleed to death while the lungs gets filled with blood, what do you think? The way we treat animals, am trying my best to go vegan till lab meat becomes a widespread. Its sickening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

Guest, sign in to access all features.

×