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Sujithmb13

Leave Sachin, Is kohli even better than Yuvraj as a match winner?

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Not a chance. He had a chance to redeem himself yesterday with a modest score to chase but he failed to do it at pressure situations. Yuvi is one of the clutch performers in those world cups you mentioned. Kohli is a bilateral ODI king that loses it in crunch situations in tournament cricket. Sachin may not have succeeded in world cups in high pressure matches but he showed his commitment and determination to stay at the crease. Sachin wouldn't have played around the ball to a regular inwinger from a leftie. Its not a technical thing with Kohli. Its more mental.

 

And Sachin was good in tournament finals other than world cups. He played at an era where triangular tournaments was still watched across the world and he didnt have the team to back him. Yuvi played in an era where we had the batsmen but not enough bowlers. We relied heavily on Zaheer and Harbhajan. But Kohli failed with all resources at his disposal. He had Shami and he chose not to play him. Shami was deadly in the NZ tour earlier this year. He not only chokes as a player but also as a captain. Still hurting with the loss yesterday

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kohli is going to go down from here. So don't expect any better. Maybe he would play a significant innings in his last world cup's semi-final or final in 2027.

Edited by haiwan

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4 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Not a chance. He had a chance to redeem himself yesterday with a modest score to chase but he failed to do it at pressure situations. Yuvi is one of the clutch performers in those world cups you mentioned. Kohli is a bilateral ODI king that loses it in crunch situations in tournament cricket. Sachin may not have succeeded in world cups in high pressure matches but he showed his commitment and determination to stay at the crease. Sachin wouldn't have played around the ball to a regular inwinger from a leftie. Its not a technical thing with Kohli. Its more mental.

 

And Sachin was good in tournament finals other than world cups. He played at an era where triangular tournaments was still watched across the world and he didnt have the team to back him. Yuvi played in an era where we had the batsmen but not enough bowlers. We relied heavily on Zaheer and Harbhajan. But Kohli failed with all resources at his disposal. He had Shami and he chose not to play him. Shami was deadly in the NZ tour earlier this year. He not only chokes as a player but also as a captain. Still hurting with the loss yesterday

Also sachin helped win the 2011 semis and the 2003 semis

Edited by New guy

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3 minutes ago, New guy said:

Also sachin helped win the 2011 semis and the 2003 semis

2003 semis was against Kenya :phehe: I know you are a Sachin fan but if you are trying to make this a big deal, I will point out the other details. Sorry. He scored a sedate 80 runs I believe and Ganguly was the one who scored at a brisk pace for a 100. We scored 270 runs and the bowlers came to the party and bowled the Kenyans out.

2011 semis was a choke job with multiple drops and Sehwag, Raina and the bowlers rescuing us. They won the match and Sachin collected the MoM in the end. But he did try to hang in there I'll give him that. Was still more determined than the sh1t show yesterday. Both innings was not his achievement alone just as many of you point Dhoni was not the only one who contributed in the 2011 finals.

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23 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Not a chance. He had a chance to redeem himself yesterday with a modest score to chase but he failed to do it at pressure situations. Yuvi is one of the clutch performers in those world cups you mentioned. Kohli is a bilateral ODI king that loses it in crunch situations in tournament cricket. Sachin may not have succeeded in world cups in high pressure matches but he showed his commitment and determination to stay at the crease. Sachin wouldn't have played around the ball to a regular inwinger from a leftie. Its not a technical thing with Kohli. Its more mental.

 

And Sachin was good in tournament finals other than world cups. He played at an era where triangular tournaments was still watched across the world and he didnt have the team to back him. Yuvi played in an era where we had the batsmen but not enough bowlers. We relied heavily on Zaheer and Harbhajan. But Kohli failed with all resources at his disposal. He had Shami and he chose not to play him. Shami was deadly in the NZ tour earlier this year. He not only chokes as a player but also as a captain. Still hurting with the loss yesterday

Also remember Yuvi gave the balance to the team with his bowling . It was a team of superstars but if Yuvi the bowler didn't click we would have been done

Edited by Sujithmb13

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Kohli still has time to improve his game in knockout matches. He will easily play 2 more worldcups and few more icc events. We can only compare this when he will retire from international cricket.

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32 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

2003 semis was against Kenya :phehe: I know you are a Sachin fan but if you are trying to make this a big deal, I will point out the other details. Sorry. He scored a sedate 80 runs I believe and Ganguly was the one who scored at a brisk pace for a 100. We scored 270 runs and the bowlers came to the party and bowled the Kenyans out.

2011 semis was a choke job with multiple drops and Sehwag, Raina and the bowlers rescuing us. They won the match and Sachin collected the MoM in the end. But he did try to hang in there I'll give him that. Was still more determined than the sh1t show yesterday. Both innings was not his achievement alone just as many of you point Dhoni was not the only one who contributed in the 2011 finals.

So what dude??. Do you think any runs come easy??.

 

BTW what was dhoni doing yesterday huh??  While jadeja was making all the hard and difficult runs dhoni ate up all the balls and dragged it till the end. he was single handedly the reason why we lost yesterday. Except dhoni moronic fans in this forum everyone saw this coming from a mile away.

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A player is remembered by trophies and his contributions in winning the trophy. Stats , strike rate , centuries, wickets, rpo, are for PR machinery and stupid fans.

Kohli has two gaping weaknesses against new ball bowlers A ball on leg stump or off leg stump, he can NOT keep it down. A ball on 5th stump, He cant keep it down. Both these weknesses are real issue why he is sitting ducks in front of left arm pacers as most of their deliveries are on that line.

 

Against spin, Less said is better. This is real cause of his failure in big games where bowlers, captains and fielders do turn up and bowl exactly according to plan.

 

As a opposition. who would you see really like . Do you want someone like impeccable Yuvi or fancy your chances against statsguru Kohli?

Its a matter of choice but I will rather bowl to Kohli

Edited by mishra

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Tendulkar was very good in triangular knockouts which were the rage back then.He was good in world cup knockouts.

 

96 QF - Good start of 30 off vs pak.

96 semis - 65 and then run out unfortunate.Whole team collapses to 126 after him.

 

2003 semis - 80 odd.

2003 final - Impossible target against one of the best bowling attacks of all time.

 

2011 QF - crucial 54 in crunch chase vs australia.

2011 semi - Crucial 85

2011 Final - failure

 

This added to 3 man of the match awards win vs pakistan in world cups,and that innings at centurion in a quasi knockout match.

 

Yuvraj was a great ODI player.Kohli still not there despite his godly stats.Because he doesnt get out after any runs.He just bombs it with a below 10 score.

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34 minutes ago, Tendulkar1996 said:

Tendulkar was very good in triangular knockouts which were the rage back then.He was good in world cup knockouts.

 

96 QF - Good start of 30 off vs pak.

96 semis - 65 and then run out unfortunate.Whole team collapses to 126 after him.

 

2003 semis - 80 odd.

2003 final - Impossible target against one of the best bowling attacks of all time.

 

2011 QF - crucial 54 in crunch chase vs australia.

2011 semi - Crucial 85

2011 Final - failure

 

This added to 3 man of the match awards win vs pakistan in world cups,and that innings at centurion in a quasi knockout match.

 

Yuvraj was a great ODI player.Kohli still not there despite his godly stats.Because he doesnt get out after any runs.He just bombs it with a below 10 score.

Still SRT better to Kohli as of now. But, if triangular knockouts can be holed in such high esteem why can't champions trophy knock outs be? So Kohli has done ok  by normal standards

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6 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Those are all ICC tourney's or just the WC? Also one of them was chasing a low score against Bangers in 2017, sure you can count it but then he was cleaned up twice in the finals!

BAN has been a lower ranked team ever since 2015, even better than 'Windies 2 time world cup champions'. So they were basically a non minnow and  performance  against them counts. You are projecting the flip side of Kohli.If that is the case every prominent batsman has  bloat in their performances.

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I'm counting only WC, CT is nowhere near the pressure or prestige of the biggest trophy in cricket. And yeah every batter has holes in their resume, like I pointed out. This is a team game so no one, even Viv has 100% record in KO games & you are allowed to fail. The number of good/great scores from Kohli is alarming though & I doubt you can weasel out of that argument by bringing his CT or WT20 performances to the fore.

Edited by R!TTER

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3 hours ago, Stan AF said:

So what dude??. Do you think any runs come easy??.

 

BTW what was dhoni doing yesterday huh??  While jadeja was making all the hard and difficult runs dhoni ate up all the balls and dragged it till the end. he was single handedly the reason why we lost yesterday. Except dhoni moronic fans in this forum everyone saw this coming from a mile away.

No they do not. I was just giving new guy some perspective. I know you are also a fan of Sachin but it is Kohli we are discussing about. Maybe you didnt read my post fully. I also credited him with showing determination and trying to hang in the crease without throwing it away

 

In the case of this game yesterday, I can't believe you are taking shots at Dhoni when the team was 77/5 and later 92/6. You must take shots at the top order who made runs when they were easy and when the going got tough, they faltered. Dhoni should have come in at 4 or 5 not Pant/Karthik/Pandya. Another captaincy mistake from Kohli. You have the most experienced batter in the team coming in at 7 :facepalm:Dhoni also needs to be blamed for not putting his hand up to bat at 4/5.

 

When I saw Karthik and Pandya come up, I knew this game was lost. He may have ate up balls but he would have ensured India didn't lose too many wickets. With Dhoni at the crease, Pant/Pandya/Karthik would have batted more freely like Jadeja.

 

Pant and Karthik didn't play in the initial stages that much. So I'm also blaming the selectors on this mess. They should also get the blame for keeping Dhoni in the team when he himself said in an interview that he is finding it hard to rotate strike 3 years ago.

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21 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

I'm counting only WC, CT is nowhere near the pressure or prestige of the biggest trophy in cricket. And yeah every batter has holes in their resume, like I pointed out. This is a team game so no one, even Viv has 100% record in KO games & you are allowed to fail. The number of good/great scores from Kohli is alarming though & I doubt you can weasel out of that argument by bringing his CT or WT20 performances to the fore.

In a game played mainly by only  some 10 countries , every game vs non minnow  even bilateral  is a pressure game    or no pressure  at all.  Simple as that.To be more precise  the pressure in a cricket match is several levels  below when compared to a universal game like football.    That being the case 'world cup' has slightly more pressure when compared to a champions trophy 'knock out' game.The same subcontinent fans who would be disappointed a lot  now with their teams performance in this world cup  would surely have expressed the almost  same level of disappointment  in general in CT 2017 too.As simple as that.That is why you can still come across several PAK fans chest thumping  about the win in final and several Indian fans getting forced to defend against them. Simple as that.

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3 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

That is why you can still come across several PAK fans chest thumping  about the win in final and several Indian fans getting forced to defend against them. Simple as that.

I don't care about Random Pak fans who have only CT win to celebrate after their fluke win in 92, take any casual cricket fan who wasn't brought up on a diet of T20, for them WC>>>>CT & the same goes for majority of us. You might want to make this an argument that all high pressure matches are the same, however that's not the case. Winning an away game in Oz is still harder than beating Bangers in BD & a large part of that is the occasion, to be more precise what players & their fans give more importance to. Hence CT<<<<WC always.

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5 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

2003 semis was against Kenya :phehe: I know you are a Sachin fan but if you are trying to make this a big deal, I will point out the other details. Sorry. He scored a sedate 80 runs I believe and Ganguly was the one who scored at a brisk pace for a 100. We scored 270 runs and the bowlers came to the party and bowled the Kenyans out.

2011 semis was a choke job with multiple drops and Sehwag, Raina and the bowlers rescuing us. They won the match and Sachin collected the MoM in the end. But he did try to hang in there I'll give him that. Was still more determined than the sh1t show yesterday. Both innings was not his achievement alone just as many of you point Dhoni was not the only one who contributed in the 2011 finals.

Agreed. But he still fought

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6 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Still SRT better to Kohli as of now. But, if triangular knockouts can be holed in such high esteem why can't champions trophy knock outs be? So Kohli has done ok  by normal standards

Tendulkar also played some great champions trophy knockout innings.

The 141 at dhaka in 1998 against steve waugh's australia that knocked them out,the early assault vs mcgrath at nairobi on a seaming pitch in 2001.That along with yuvraj knocked the ATG aus team out of that edition.

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4 hours ago, RAZPOR said:

Yuvraj was much bigger match winner ,he never choked at important moments when he was in his prime

His choking in 2014 is legendary.  In fact Kohli has never played a match losing knock like yuvi

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Kohli 's 133 against Sri Lanka was a knockout.  His heroics won us Odi series in SA.  All our legends failed to do that. Kohli has great innings vs Australia in 2016 t20 WC. In semifinals too he made 89 against Windies. Has two MOS in 2014 (yuvraj ruined that WC for us) ,2016 t20WC.

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11 hours ago, Sujithmb13 said:

Yuvi has won the game for India against Australia in CT,qf against Australia .Also he was the best player in a WC.What has kohli done in ICC odi tournaments?

This is where Indians talk like Pakistanis...

 

Kohli much better than Yuvi man. Now I wont go to that level to suggest otherwise. VK is definitely still the best batter in the world. Not a great captain but a great batsman for sure. Not long ago he was best chaser wasnt he?

 

Lately though what people are missing is that opposition teams have caught on Kohli's weakness outside off stump, vulnerability early on in the innings etc. Happend with SRT too happens with every greats batsman. 

 

How Virat counters that from here will define if he will retire like Sachin  - Best batter. 

Edited by DGBOSS

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I am sure yuvraj's most runs in 2011 WC came against poor sides in league matches (century against hopeless windies).   His 5 wickets in a single match was too against some rubbish side in league matches. 

Edited by Anoop K
Mistake

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10 hours ago, Stan AF said:

So what dude??. Do you think any runs come easy??.

 

BTW what was dhoni doing yesterday huh??  While jadeja was making all the hard and difficult runs dhoni ate up all the balls and dragged it till the end. he was single handedly the reason why we lost yesterday. Except dhoni moronic fans in this forum everyone saw this coming from a mile away.

I know! They even showed him biting his bat. He bit everyone's bat and that's how the top 3 got out for 1.

 

:protest:

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54 minutes ago, Tendulkar1996 said:

Tendulkar also played some great champions trophy knockout innings.

The 141 at dhaka in 1998 against steve waugh's australia that knocked them out,the early assault vs mcgrath at nairobi on a seaming pitch in 2001.That along with yuvraj knocked the ATG aus team out of that edition.

OMg I just saw that 141 again. I need some tissues. Brb

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8 hours ago, asterix said:

The funny thing is, I had fully expected Kohli and his team to "lose" either in Semis or Finals... I was prepared for it... Kohli and his team has mastered the art of losing KOs/Finals... Probably they thought better not to lose in Finals as that'd have been too much to handle...

Same here. I knew our skipper & team would perform somewhat similar like the previous KO's in recent years & hoping to be wrong. Disappointed but not exactly heartbroken this time. It is just like appearing in the same exam again & again without rectifying your previous mistakes with the hope of a better result.

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Yuvi got out to a duck in 2011 to Pakistan in the biggest of semifinal clashes....THATS OK.  Why?

 

No one expects everyone to fire at all times.  Yuvi had a fabulous match against a very strong Australia and in the finals vs Sri Lanka with both the ball and bat.  Even vs Pakistan he took a few key wickets.

 

Kohli semi final scores are 9 1 1.  Literally an emergency.

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1 hour ago, Anoop K said:

As a batsman yuvi is nowhere even near Kohli.  He was inconsistent for most of his career. 

Except in the world cup when it mattered.  Difference in Hero Honda invitational and world cup.  Kohli sucks in big matches.

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8 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Kohli has 4 'very good' to 'great' category inns  in ICC tournament  knockout matches. So he has been a match winner   by ordinary standards.. It is by his own standards that he has been a  bit off.

9 1 1 is bad by any category.  Those are his semi final scorers.  Those are the 3 worst semi final scores in history of the world cup for any top order batsman. 

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9 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Still SRT better to Kohli as of now. But, if triangular knockouts can be holed in such high esteem why can't champions trophy knock outs be? So Kohli has done ok  by normal standards

That way ,ganguly is the king of KOs, 4 tons in 7 KO matches !

Also scored 83 runs in 1998 CT semi finals.

Sachin too scored a 140 against aus in 1998 CT qf 

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No. Yuvi has been instrumental in winning WC cups T20 in 2007 and ODI in 2011. He has won on big stage. Rat needs to do that, not just eat cheese!

Edited by Audiophile

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5 hours ago, Tendulkar1996 said:

Tendulkar also played some great champions trophy knockout innings.

The 141 at dhaka in 1998 against steve waugh's australia that knocked them out,the early assault vs mcgrath at nairobi on a seaming pitch in 2001.That along with yuvraj knocked the ATG aus team out of that edition.

there is no doubting Sachin's superiority  over Kohli unless Kohli turn it around in knock outs in his next 1 or perhaps 2 world cups.

I was just pointing that  Kohli himself has till this point done atleast 'ok' level w.r.t knock outs because of his 4 knock out inns.

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2 hours ago, Adi BB said:

That way ,ganguly is the king of KOs, 4 tons in 7 KO matches !

Also scored 83 runs in 1998 CT semi finals.

Sachin too scored a 140 against aus in 1998 CT qf 

yes they  have.... but Kohli is ok in his own right based on his inns... i mean not bad as people  make him out to be after the semi final inns

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5 hours ago, Anoop K said:

His choking in 2014 is legendary.  In fact Kohli has never played a match losing knock like yuvi

2014 was not his prime ,get a grip.

Kohli has done nothing but chokejobs in important ko games 9,1,1 in 3 wc 

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