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In Kashmir, Indian security forces use pellet guns that often blind protesters

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In Kashmir, Indian security forces use pellet guns that often blind protesters

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/07/12/in-kashmir-indian-security-forces-use-pellet-guns-that-often-blind-protesters/

 

After four days of chaotic and violent protests in Indian-administered Kashmir, at least 24 people are dead and hundreds injured. Doctors at the main hospital in Srinagar, the region's capital, have struggled to cope with the casualties. Many of the wounded are lying two to a bed.

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"Seventy-seven persons have been hit by pellets in their eyes," a doctor told Caravan magazine on Monday. That article leads with the story of a 9-year-old girl who was shot in the eye while watching the protests through a window at home. The pellet was still lodged in her eye as of Tuesday.

"We have already operated on 92 patients. Every hour, more young men arrive with pellet injuries to the eyes. We are overburdened," another doctor at the same hospital told the Indian Express on Tuesday. Yet another doctor said, "We have never seen anything of this magnitude. Everyone who came here has pellet wounds above the chest."

 

Both doctors said the rate of eye injuries was unprecedented. They also said that the majority of injuries overall involved upper-body wounds. Accounts from the hospital indicate that most of the wounded are young men, though numerous children also were being operated on. One widely circulated photo showed an 11-year-old boy with multiple upper-body injuries.

 

Since the last major outbreak of violence, which occurred in 2010, Indian police and paramilitary forces have been using pellet guns to suppress protests and riots. These weapons are intended to be "non-lethal." They are certainly useful in dispersing crowds.

 

But being blinded, of course, has severe consequences for the victim and their family. It is not like being shot in the arm or anywhere else on the body, where healing might be easier. Someone whose eyes are hit by pellets may never see light again.

 

CnLb2ZkVUAEmqsj.jpg

An x ray of a #Kashmir boy hit by pellets...This evil weapon meant for beasts should be banned.

 

India stations at least a half-million troops in Kashmir, making it the world's most heavily militarized region. The simmering insurgency, as well as flare-ups like the ongoing one, have left more than 10,000 dead since 1990.

 

 

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Unfortunately, pellets guns have to be used when the so-called protesters start to attack those stationed to provide security

 

These so called protesters have killed security personals

 

If Pakistanis are so worried about Kashmiris, first they should remove all their forces and other citizens from POK and stop supporting terrorism. Per UN Resolution, the first condition is that all Pakistanis vacate Kashmir 

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The protesters can always stop throwing stones at the forces.It is not like the forces are using this without a reason.

These so called protesters have been assaulting security forces for decades using stones and worse.

This is not protest.It is aggression with assault .The forces have a right to use pellets not just to restore order,but also in self defense. 

People crying over their children should try and teach these children to not assault people with stones.

 

More over ,these people or any protesters  any where in the country have no right to cause inconvenience and problems to normal people It doesn't matter where...if protesters cannot protest peacefully without violence and causing inconvenience to others....security forces have all the right to use force.

 

The choice of  not to get hit by the pellets lie squarely with these guys.Learn to protest  peacefully like humans to be treated like humans.Act like monsters and apprentice of terrorists,get treated like them.

Edited by radhika

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Unfortunate pellets, good on Indian forces they are not using bullets. may be they can use hose and tasers next. Anything that controls crowd but does not injure young kashmiri kids, and moves them back to path of education and progress.

 

Now to pak people. Listen up.

 

1, If Pak wants Kashmiries and some kashmiri muslims want pak, then we can let the union happen. Kashmiri muslims who want to go to pak can cross the border.No state compensation, but we can give 100 bucks for breakfast and some water, and stop the electricity in the fences till they cross.

 

2, No plebiscite. Conditions on ground has changed. Pak needs to remove its troops from POK/Muzz and then make the ethinicity similar to what it was in 1947( no punjabi paktoon only kashmiri). India will then remove forces from cities and have enough to protect kashmir from pak attack. Pak will have to get the ceded territories from china and include them in the withdrawal. After this India will bring back the now 26 million hindu pandit population back into valley till the last of them which might take very careful planing and execution. ( most of them serve the indian military now) and hold plebiscite.

 

3, Pak you wont get any more land from us, we will take back all of Kashmir,Chitral take some more from you for good measure etc.

 

bye. And Indian muslims really dont want you they help themselves and dont think much of Pak as is rest of the world.

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If someone throws the stats on number of civilians killed in Baluchistan vs. the number of civilians+terrorists killed in Kashmir (both by terrorists and by army ) in last decade or two , this guy Asim will apologise here if he has a iota of honesty in him.

Edited by randomGuy

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As soon as innocents especially kids see that miscreants are causing any unrest on the streets of Kashmir, they should retreat to their homes to safety. Stay put until situation is under control. Army wants peace in Kashmir. They don't want separatist attack them and kill them but if they were to defect themselves, they will do it with proper procedure. There were numerous warnings given by army before they used most acceptable offense.

 

 

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Someone check the veracity of the pic posted in OP...my gut instinct is it's taken from elsewhere and used for propaganda purposes. 

 

Use of pellet guns is as humane as it gets, almost needlessly so, when you are up against a brainwashed public that wants an islamofascist regime. Can't think of any army that has been as patient and tolerant when dealing with an armed and hostile crowd. 

Edited by radhika

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17 hours ago, sarchasm said:

Someone check the veracity of the pic posted in OP...my gut instinct is it's taken from elsewhere and used for propaganda purposes. 

 

Use of pellet guns is as humane as it gets, almost needlessly so, when you are up against a brainwashed public that wants an islamofascist regime. Can't think of any army that has been as patient and tolerant when dealing with an armed and hostile crowd. 

 

Please go on to check 'veracity' of these pics:

india-kashmir-pakistan-unrest_a6293568-4

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/in-kashmir-pellet-gun-victims-are-as-young-as-4-years/story-1tMf1PBrubqxTw3f5V3IgL.html

 

 

&NCS_modified=20160717202847&MaxW=640&im

http://www.thenational.ae/world/south-asia/indian-troops-come-under-fire-for-devastating-use-of-pellet-guns-to-quell-kashmir-protests

Indian troops come under fire for devastating use of pellet guns to quell Kashmir protests

 

CnKo2fXWAAEuWsj.jpg

 

_90430302_1.jpg

 

_90427720_22.jpg

Concern in Kashmir over police pellet guns

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-36822567

 

1ed8c629c1aa488da65f47c55a79bcb1_8.jpg

 

d95564b81d014bc2b25213f8e5618668_8.jpg

 

 

3900.jpg?w=860&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&f

 

indias-use-of-non-lethal-pellet-gun-cont

 

 

Edited by radhika

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if pakistan is really bothered about the suffering of kashmiris , they should stop paying to kashmiri thugs to throw stones ..

on the other hand , if pakistan continues to pamper , we should take care of our balooch and afghan brothers 

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9 minutes ago, Vilander said:

The pellets are real but its unbelievable that Indian forces can do this to kids, why kids how did they come out or are the separatists using kids as shields, looks like some psyops 

Kids should neither be out on the streets, nor be near the windows watching. Probably the so called rioters are using women and children as shield too .... Best guess is that the kids are caught in the cross-fire and therefore have their parents/guardians to blame 

 

 

 

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Always sad when violence occurs.  But as someone already posted, its not as if army is shooting pellets at bystanders.  They are being attacked with bottle bombs, stones what have you.

 

But I will say this, Us Indians should recognize that there is a serious credibility issue for us and our government with these Kashmiris.  I mean if thousands of people are agitating after a known and self-confessed terrorist is shot, there is an issue there that needs to be resolved.

 

I'm all for not letting Pakistan profit from this, but nor do I want my government to act like an occupying power.  Not in my name or my country's name.  If it means that we come up with some creative solution with Puerto Rico type status, thats fine.  

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1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Always sad when violence occurs.  But as someone already posted, its not as if army is shooting pellets at bystanders.  They are being attacked with bottle bombs, stones what have you.

 

But I will say this, Us Indians should recognize that there is a serious credibility issue for us and our government with these Kashmiris.  I mean if thousands of people are agitating after a known and self-confessed terrorist is shot, there is an issue there that needs to be resolved.

 

I'm all for not letting Pakistan profit from this, but nor do I want my government to act like an occupying power.  Not in my name or my country's name.  If it means that we come up with some creative solution with Puerto Rico type status, thats fine.  

Google Operation Gibraltar .... Also note that non-Muslim Kashmirs have been driven out of the valley 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Always sad when violence occurs.  But as someone already posted, its not as if army is shooting pellets at bystanders.  They are being attacked with bottle bombs, stones what have you.

 

But I will say this, Us Indians should recognize that there is a serious credibility issue for us and our government with these Kashmiris.  I mean if thousands of people are agitating after a known and self-confessed terrorist is shot, there is an issue there that needs to be resolved.

 

I'm all for not letting Pakistan profit from this, but nor do I want my government to act like an occupying power.  Not in my name or my country's name.  If it means that we come up with some creative solution with Puerto Rico type status, thats fine.  

These are the same people who drove out Pandits en masse and this calamity gets no mileage in mainstream media. The credibility gap will not go because what animates the Kashmiri jihad is islamofascism that will NEVER accept Indian (Hindu for them) suzerainty. Also, any resolution based on your suggestion is a recipe for future movements within India. How far are we ready to bend over?

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If these elements want to gain something, first they have to ask Pak to vacate POK. 2nd, welcome those non-Muslims back 

 

If they are only revolting in J&K and surprisingly saying nothing about POK, a part of Kashmir, it is not hard to see where the fuel is coming from 

 

 

 

 

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padosis should stop obsessing with kashmir or kashmiris.. atleast kashmiris can fast or pray whenever they want unlike what happens in their friendly china ..

kashmir was peacful till late 1980s then it all changed when pakistan decided to wage a proxy war with us with surplus mujahadeens that they trained for action in Afghanistan..

 

if padosis are really bothered about civil rights , they should free Balochistan first..

anyway there is a reason why afghans like indians and hate Pakistani even though both sides are muslims

 

looks like kashmir is still relatively peaceful wen compared to 90s

 

2560px-Insurgency_Terror-related_Fatalit

 

 

Edited by velu

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Fatalities in Baluchistan (just last 5 years, figures available for previous periods as well)

 

Please Note that these stats are just for Baluchistan where there is a freedom movement. When you include total civilian fatalities throughout Pak., the no. goes up 4-6 times every year.

 

2011 -

Civilians - 542

Militants - 47

Security forces - 122

Total - 711

 

2012 -

Civilians - 690

Militants - 86

Security forces - 178

Total - 954

 

2013 -

Civilians - 718

Militants - 105

Security forces - 137

Total - 960

 

2014 -

Civilians - 347

Militants - 223

Security forces - 83

Total - 653

 

2015 -

Civilians - 247

Militants - 298

Security forces - 90

Total - 635

Source - http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/fatilities_regionwise.htm

Fatalities in Kashmir

2011 -

Civilians - 32

Militants - 119

Security forces - 30

Total - 183

 

2012 -

Civilians - 16

Militants - 84

Security forces - 17

Total - 117

 

2013 -

Civilians - 20

Militants - 100

Security forces - 61

Total - 181

 

2014 -

Civilians - 32

Militants - 110

Security forces - 51

Total - 193

 

2015 -

Civilians - 20

Militants - 113

Security forces - 41

Total - 174

source - http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/database/indiafatalities.htm

 

This guy Asim had perfect idea of these numbers and yet is being a hypocrite.

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Our padosis seem to think that stones are soft cotton balls and gulab ke phool. When hit by a stone it is very painful and can lead to permanent damage. It is  a weapon.  I am sorry for those injured with pellets and am  also equally sorry for those jawans who have to put up with these stone throwers. How long can the jawans be restrained.?

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@Asim

 

This is where the pic in your OP is lifted from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008078/Peppered-150-shotgun-pellets-Victim-survives-doctors-warn-die-25-years-earlier-remove-them.html

 

As I mentioned, a total propaganda image used to demonize Indian security forces. 

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^ ur research over these images is sad+funny... u r exploding internet to match those x-ray graphics which r showing how these pellets remain inside bodies and calling it propaganda however at the same time your research skills gone dead and eyes are totally shut to view 100s of other actual victim images (Im sure u must have tried to make photo search for all other images too, but where u ended up?) and worldwide news sources covering this brutality by indian forces (there's some reason I have not quoted a single Pakistani media URL)

Edited by Asim

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Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

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1 minute ago, Asim said:

Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

what is your opinion about your ex army chief and dictator coming in the TV and accepting that they supported the terrorists including osama bin laden and waged proxy war with india through the same terrorists  ??

only defence that you may have is musharaff lied or drunk when he made that statement :giggle:

 

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42 minutes ago, Asim said:

^ ur research over these images is sad+funny... u r exploding internet to match those x-ray graphics which r showing how these pellets remain inside bodies and calling it propaganda however at the same time your research skills gone dead and eyes are totally shut to view 100s of other actual victim images (Im sure u must have tried to make photo search for all other images too, but where u ended up?) and worldwide news sources covering this brutality by indian forces (there's some reason I have not quoted a single Pakistani media URL)

you are the one who is posting pictures from unverified twitter accounts and @sarchasm has pointed that out. Yet you dont agree that is propaganda.  Why this special interest from a Pakistani towards Kashmir ? just because majority are muslims. you have millions of issues you would be better of  concentrating on them.

Edited by gattaca

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Im sort of glad that all of indians actually does not have any real defense over indian army brutality in Kashmir...

so far only types of arguments, which r quite lame to be honest, are: i. its propaganda (bcz we r on criminals side so better call it propaganda, despite the fact whole world media has reported this multiple times but since its against us so lets just call it propaganda) ii. they too throw paid stones and payment is made by Pakistan for each stone (horribly hilarious) iii. ham nay kashmir mai yeh kar lia to kya hua, tumhari taraf b to yeh hota hey, Balochistan, Usama daikho, Afghan, Taliban blah blah...

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3 hours ago, Asim said:

Im sort of glad that all of indians actually does not have any real defense over indian army brutality in Kashmir...

so far only types of arguments, which r quite lame to be honest, are: i. its propaganda (bcz we r on criminals side so better call it propaganda, despite the fact whole world media has reported this multiple times but since its against us so lets just call it propaganda) ii. they too throw paid stones and payment is made by Pakistan for each stone (horribly hilarious) iii. ham nay kashmir mai yeh kar lia to kya hua, tumhari taraf b to yeh hota hey, Balochistan, Usama daikho, Afghan, Taliban blah blah...

Bhai, Earlier Kashmiris were claiming mass rape, mass killing. Now you are complaining about pallet guns. No of innocents+security forces injured by by stone pelting granades bullets of terrorist > terrorist injured. Since India has limited voice on global stage it is paying these cost. Forget about West, even China dont take such crap from Muslims of Uighars and no one really gives a hoot about that.

And offcourse if this was we

st, they will expose and cleanse these paid thugs rioters and religios fundamentalust and terrorist in a week.

 

Wait few years and Kashmir will be no issue like Uighur

Edited by mishra

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On 7/24/2016 at 8:54 AM, Adi_91 said:

I am confident that Pakistan will implode sooner rather than later. When you have terrorists carrying out protest marches, it is a matter of time.

 

Quote

Dont pick on our misguided brothers. Entire country is falling apart - hard for them to compete at that level when they are struggling for survival. 

 

@Asim

wheres this coming from ? .... :phehe:

 

 

Edited by KeyboardWarrior

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Actually, Asim is right. This was a blunder by the Indian security forces.

The fact is, there are plenty of teens and tweens who are political in their own right. This does not negate the usage of children by Islamic terrorist fomenting agencies inside India, either. These teens, tweens will go to protest march and that is also their democratic right. The usage of these unnecessary pellet guns is deplorable and very short-sighted, since best way to piss off a community is to maim their young, bright and political types. 

 

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On July 26, 2016 at 0:27 PM, Asim said:

Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

 

The bolded part is why I've noticed, Indian or otherwise, very few people take Pakistanis such as yourself seriously. You are biassed because of a combination of 'land greed + using religious brotherhood syndrome to justify greed' about Kashmir. Simple. 

Its because so few Pakistanis understand the concept of law and what is legally true or not - perhaps this explains why your country is a hotbed of terrorism and nobody can do much about it, because your legal body is weak and deficient, through the length and breadth of the nation.


Kashmir is not Indian Occupied area. Kashmir is legally a part of India. The criterias of referendum in Kashmir have not been met by either side (Pakistan or India) and India cannot meet its criteria without Pakistan taking initiatives first, since referendum cannot be sought from a legally owned state unless the state can conduct de-jure and de-facto referendums in the area in question.

 

That is basic legalism 101. Most Pakistanis simply cannot see the fact that if there is EVER to be a referendum on Kashmir, on any international basis, then Pakistan *HAS* to clear out of Azad Kashmir and Northern Areas.
At best, it can hope for a UN peacekeeper enforcement of law and order & military presence, leading to dismissal of every single Pakistani government employee in the region as well. This would be the legal outcome if this case ever actually proceed for any legal resolution and China got a say in the matter, for example. 

Even then, India is 90%+ likely in such a tilted court, to simply argue its LEGAL sovereign rights over all of Kashmir and point the finger at Pakistan, that had Paksitan accepted LoC as the de-facto border, atleast, it could invoke a few special circumstance precedence to call for referendum in Indian-held Kashmir. But as of now, Pakistan wants to trigger a legal separation process from the legal sovereign of Kashmir, aka republic of India, while occupying part of this region, thus preventing the rights of the legal sovereign being represented in all corners of the territory in concern. Ergo, it cannot happen, unless Pakistan vacates Kashmir first. Do you Pakistanis even get this basic concept or not ?


Since the LoC is not a recognized border, the De-Jure and De-facto border of Kashmir is under occupation from Pakistan. 

 

These are legal facts, which is why there can be no legal challenge to Indian presence in Kashmir unless Pakistan clears out first. Have you ever wondered why Pakistan has never ever won a case in ICJ or any international mediation over Kashmir in 70+ years of existence ? 

So, if you wish for us to take your concern for Kashmir seriously, start acting seriously and recognize the basic principles of LAW first. 

 

Edited by Muloghonto

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On 27/7/2016 at 0:57 AM, Asim said:

Cant believe some nation can be this stupid to so easily buy, believe and spread such ^&*) theories that some of their country's occupied area people are throwing stones towards army to get paid or get paid to throw stones... and that half million army with billions of budget does not have any protection methods even 'vs stones' instead the Only Option they can use is Pellet guns, hitting straight bullets even vs kids, making people blind forever and brutally killing the youth...

Yes it is the only option.  U can argue about pellet guns or bullets  or make a smart remark/dig about protection methods but not about what the army should do.  It is not about protecting themselves but  rather about the situation they face. In these kind of situation any army in any part of the world is allowed to shoot and kill the protesters either with pellet guns or normal bullets. To maintain law and order all over the world even the police has the right to use force against the protestors and here we have a situation where the people have actually killed the police officer(an incident that  you seem to either forget or ignore). The army does not think whether it's actions are morally and ethically right or wrong. The army simply  exists to protect the interests of the  country against both internal and external threats .It is not bound by humanity. They give their lives for the country  and are also expected to take lives.  Here the threat is internal and we are talking about a separatist movement. No country or it's army will tolerate this. Unlike israel and other countries Indian army is actually under lot of pressure from the govt and Indian media which regularly takes it to task. They exercise maximum restrain and give many warnings to the protesters to leave and even before shooting the pellets they give a warning before firing them.  This is a standard procedure.if all this does not deter the protestors and they continue with throwing stones at them  and killing police and destruct property  then the army is allowed to shoot and kill them.

The army did not ask the kids to be in the protest. If  adults  are willing to die for a cause it is understandable. but kids! What kind of parents are these that  actually send their kids to death. ?

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Legal/Illegal/UN/NoUN/occupied or not hardly matters because Kashmir does not naturally remains any part of india when u see rest of indian media, politicians and more importantly people (genuinely ask urself) are treating india/indians vs Kashmir/Kashmiris altogether differently;unable to ever speak a word even for actual innocent Kashmiri victims whereas putting Every possible excuse to justify ANY type of army actions in Kashmir...

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10 hours ago, Asim said:

Legal/Illegal/UN/NoUN/occupied or not hardly matters because Kashmir does not naturally remains any part of india when u see rest of indian media, politicians and more importantly people (genuinely ask urself) are treating india/indians vs Kashmir/Kashmiris altogether differently;unable to ever speak a word even for actual innocent Kashmiri victims whereas putting Every possible excuse to justify ANY type of army actions in Kashmir...

Who are these 'actual' Kashmiri victims? 

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10 hours ago, Asim said:

Legal/Illegal/UN/NoUN/occupied or not hardly matters because Kashmir does not naturally remains any part of india when u see rest of indian media, politicians and more importantly people (genuinely ask urself) are treating india/indians vs Kashmir/Kashmiris altogether differently;unable to ever speak a word even for actual innocent Kashmiri victims whereas putting Every possible excuse to justify ANY type of army actions in Kashmir...

1. So do you concede the point that India is not occupying Kashmir, India is sovereign of Kashmir and Pakistan is occupying Kashmir, since LEGALLY, the sovereignty of Kashmir passed from Maharaja Hari Singh to Republic of India ?

 

2. I have 'genuinely asked people' who are Kashmiri and the opinion is varied. Not a SINGLE Ladakhi or people from Jammu want independence or separation from India. The feeling of separation from India is predominantly, in my experience, found of Muslim Kashmiris from the valley (muslim Kashmiris from Ladakh want a separate state from Kashmir because they want to be with India and want nothing else to do with rest of Kashmir, FYI). Even then, Muslims of Kashmir who want separation from India,  want independent Kashmir first and consider an union with Pakistan a very distant second choice.

 

3. Perhaps the problem with your country and your culture, is that you put so little value on legalism, where rest of the civilized world governments care predominantly about legal positions. Even your strongest buddy China cares more about the rule of law above everything else. Yet, to you and your kind of people, law doesnt matter. That is convinient, because legally speaking, Pakistan has a big fat ZERO claim to Kashmir and India is the sovereign of Kashmir, even PoK and Northern Areas. India is the sovereign of those, Pakistan is the illegal occupier of those. 

Maybe your nation will progress one day if educated people like you start to value legalism above petty politics and personal desires.

But I doubt it, since being in Pakistan and India, the gulf between the two countries is very apparent. Pakistan is still stuck in stone age mentality. India is nearly at the beginning of its emancipated era.

 

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11 hours ago, Book_Worm said:

Yes it is the only option.  U can argue about pellet guns or bullets  or make a smart remark/dig about protection methods but not about what the army should do.  It is not about protecting themselves but  rather about the situation they face. In these kind of situation any army in any part of the world is allowed to shoot and kill the protesters either with pellet guns or normal bullets. To maintain law and order all over the world even the police has the right to use force against the protestors and here we have a situation where the people have actually killed the police officer(an incident that  you seem to either forget or ignore). The army does not think whether it's actions are morally and ethically right or wrong. The army simply  exists to protect the interests of the  country against both internal and external threats .It is not bound by humanity. They give their lives for the country  and are also expected to take lives.  Here the threat is internal and we are talking about a separatist movement. No country or it's army will tolerate this. Unlike israel and other countries Indian army is actually under lot of pressure from the govt and Indian media which regularly takes it to task. They exercise maximum restrain and give many warnings to the protesters to leave and even before shooting the pellets they give a warning before firing them.  This is a standard procedure.if all this does not deter the protestors and they continue with throwing stones at them  and killing police and destruct property  then the army is allowed to shoot and kill them.

The army did not ask the kids to be in the protest. If  adults  are willing to die for a cause it is understandable. but kids! What kind of parents are these that  actually send their kids to death. ?

 

You are completely incorrect for the bolded areas. 

 

1. We can argue about what an army should or should do all we like, because the army is not above the law. 

2. In 'these kinds of situations' most of the civilized world actually use bullet-proof vest, shield and do what the Romans did, i.e., lock shields and surround the protesters and then taser them. Tasering has less than 1 in a 1000 incident of permanent damage of any kind and is 99.99% certain to incapacitate you. Thats what 20,000 volts at very low amperage does- it gives you excruciating pain, uncontrollable muscle spasm but zero long term damage. Ie, situation contained and nobody got hurt.

3. army's job is to protect the nation but army is MOST DEFINITELY bound by ethics. Specifically, Republic of India is a signatory to geneva convention and Geneva convention covers what is ethical conduct by the army and what is not. This is why shotguns are banned in conventional army armaments (though almost everyone find an excuse to use it in actual war) because shotguns are considered inhumane in warfare.

That is just one example, many such examples exist where the army is bound by ethical standards, especially at peacetime.

4. We've had separatist movement in Quebec and it still exists, Quebecois did extended rally and protest to separate from Canada but at no point did the army have the mandate to open fire or maim Canadian citizens.

 

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2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

You are completely incorrect for the bolded areas. 

 

1. We can argue about what an army should or should do all we like, because the army is not above the law. 

Yes the army is not above law. The army itself has it's own committee to look into excess carried out by soldiers. If the protests were peaceful and army carried out attacks then yes it would come under scrutiny  and there would be widespread condemnations from all sectors . Here in this case the police machinery itself has come to a stand still and the protestors/mob has killed a police officer and are disrupting the peace in the valley. In this situation army is allowed to use force. Recently there was jatt agitation and army was called and shoot at sight orders were given and 3 people will killed by the army.

2. In 'these kinds of situations' most of the civilized world actually use bullet-proof vest, shield and do what the Romans did, i.e., lock shields and surround the protesters and then taser them. Tasering has less than 1 in a 1000 incident of permanent damage of any kind and is 99.99% certain to incapacitate you. Thats what 20,000 volts at very low amperage does- it gives you excruciating pain, uncontrollable muscle spasm but zero long term damage. Ie, situation contained and nobody got hurt.

Indian soldiers also wear vests and have shield. If u think they are not wearing vests etc then i don't know what to think about you.! I said it before it is not about the protective gears but rather about the situation and how they deal with it. They can use taser or pellets or bullets that is upto to the army to decide which weapon to use and how much humane it needs to be. Romans can do what they want  in rome and indians will do what they want to india.

3. army's job is to protect the nation but army is MOST DEFINITELY bound by ethics. Specifically, Republic of India is a signatory to geneva convention and Geneva convention covers what is ethical conduct by the army and what is not. This is why shotguns are banned in conventional army armaments (though almost everyone find an excuse to use it in actual war) because shotguns are considered inhumane in warfare.

What i meant was once the army is given orders from higher ups then it does not stop to think who they kill and  they just carry out the orders. Soldiers do not question but just carry out orders is an oft repeated phrase.  

That is just one example, many such examples exist where the army is bound by ethical standards, especially at peacetime.

4. We've had separatist movement in Quebec and it still exists, Quebecois did extended rally and protest to separate from Canada but at no point did the army have the mandate to open fire or maim Canadian citizens.

I am really not aware of any separatist movement in canada currently. Last i heard there was a referendum and the french speaking people choose to stay as part of canada and there is no such movement anymore.

 

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19 hours ago, Book_Worm said:

Yes the army is not above law. The army itself has it's own committee to look into excess carried out by soldiers. If the protests were peaceful and army carried out attacks then yes it would come under scrutiny  and there would be widespread condemnations from all sectors . Here in this case the police machinery itself has come to a stand still and the protestors/mob has killed a police officer and are disrupting the peace in the valley. In this situation army is allowed to use force. Recently there was jatt agitation and army was called and shoot at sight orders were given and 3 people will killed by the army.

What committee army has, is irrelevant. Every functional organization needs a self regulatory body- even the Taliban and ISIS have some sort of self-regulatory body (if we can call their perverse sense of ethics, regulatory) but that does not mean the self regulatory body is the legal binding authority. It is not. The judiciary system is and the army *is* subject to the judiciary. It is up to the judiciary to deciede if the army is violating the rights of the people or not, which is why the government declares martial law or invokes special section codes, in order to give army the requisite immunity to these sort of actions. In short, no, just because the government deployed the army in say Kerala for some demonstrations, does not give the army sweeping powers to shoot to kill to enforce law and order. 

Quote

Indian soldiers also wear vests and have shield. If u think they are not wearing vests etc then i don't know what to think about you.! I said it before it is not about the protective gears but rather about the situation and how they deal with it. They can use taser or pellets or bullets that is upto to the army to decide which weapon to use and how much humane it needs to be. Romans can do what they want  in rome and indians will do what they want to india.


Again, it is not up to the army on what armaments to use, the government HAS to empower the army to use lethal force in the first place. Just because you deployed the army, does not mean the army has the authority to use lethal force, especially against its own citizens and tax payers. 
And no, army does not deciede how humane it needs to be. The Geneva convention deciedes so. Just because the army decieded that the best way to quell rebellion is to publicly boil alive the miscreants, does not make it legal and in such a scenario, the army would be subject to sanction by the government.

 

Quote

What i meant was once the army is given orders from higher ups then it does not stop to think who they kill and  they just carry out the orders. Soldiers do not question but just carry out orders is an oft repeated phrase.  

False. There are special section codes defined in the geneva convention where a soldier is obligated to NOT follow orders and following orders is culpable criminality. For example, if i am the commanding officer and you are my subordinate and if I order you to rape a suspect, you are subject to sanction under Geneva convention. The Nuremberg trials set the precedent and India is a signatory to that. There are some actions that you just cannot hide behind 'sorry i was following orders'. Some orders obligates the soldier to be a conscientious dissenter.

Quote

I am really not aware of any separatist movement in canada currently. Last i heard there was a referendum and the french speaking people choose to stay as part of canada and there is no such movement anymore.

It is no longer a national issue, but Quebec always has a small but vocal crowd of independence seekers.

But in Canadian law, getting independence for a territory is NOT just the decision of the territory, it is a decision of the entire nation- i.e. the ENTIRE nation gets to vote if a part will break away or not. As it should. The logic is simple. To apply Canadian legal logic to Kashmir would be akin to this :

The central government of India has invested money into Kashmir, ergo, ALL Indians have invested money into Kashmir. Therefore, whether to let such an investment go or not is the decision of all the stakeholders, aka the entire nation. If India did not have a special section code preventing property purchase in Kashmir to non-Kashmiris, it would apply to that as well. Ie, if a guy in Kolkata defaults on his mortgage, then the bank repos the house, then the house is put to sale for ALL Indians. Ie, a guy from Kerala would be entitled to bid for that house. Therefore, if tomorrow, West Bengal decieded to break away, we are limiting the rights of the Keralan guy as well. So the Malayali also has a say.


This really is the best logic to quash all secessionism, unless there is a mutually beneficial reason (i.e. , state/province in question and rest of the nation) to separate.

Surprised that rest of the world hasn't followed Canada's example on this.

Edited by Muloghonto

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On 7/27/2016 at 2:29 AM, Asim said:

Im sort of glad that all of indians actually does not have any real defense over indian army brutality in Kashmir...

so far only types of arguments, which r quite lame to be honest, are: i. its propaganda (bcz we r on criminals side so better call it propaganda, despite the fact whole world media has reported this multiple times but since its against us so lets just call it propaganda) ii. they too throw paid stones and payment is made by Pakistan for each stone (horribly hilarious) iii. ham nay kashmir mai yeh kar lia to kya hua, tumhari taraf b to yeh hota hey, Balochistan, Usama daikho, Afghan, Taliban blah blah...

Hey Asim, the pellets on kashmiri kids is wrong, people will be tried for it and punished. But if kashmiri kids come to the streets to protest and pelt stones on armed forces its a different problem altogether. An other crucial point is pak has no locus standi in this, but there will be an impact however, India will want to punish pak now and fanning up tensions in Kashmir.

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On 7/28/2016 at 11:50 AM, Muloghonto said:

 

You are completely incorrect for the bolded areas. 

 

1. We can argue about what an army should or should do all we like, because the army is not above the law. 

2. In 'these kinds of situations' most of the civilized world actually use bullet-proof vest, shield and do what the Romans did, i.e., lock shields and surround the protesters and then taser them. Tasering has less than 1 in a 1000 incident of permanent damage of any kind and is 99.99% certain to incapacitate you. Thats what 20,000 volts at very low amperage does- it gives you excruciating pain, uncontrollable muscle spasm but zero long term damage. Ie, situation contained and nobody got hurt.

3. army's job is to protect the nation but army is MOST DEFINITELY bound by ethics. Specifically, Republic of India is a signatory to geneva convention and Geneva convention covers what is ethical conduct by the army and what is not. This is why shotguns are banned in conventional army armaments (though almost everyone find an excuse to use it in actual war) because shotguns are considered inhumane in warfare.

That is just one example, many such examples exist where the army is bound by ethical standards, especially at peacetime.

4. We've had separatist movement in Quebec and it still exists, Quebecois did extended rally and protest to separate from Canada but at no point did the army have the mandate to open fire or maim Canadian citizens.

 

its not an armed movement, the moment a civilian picks up arms they invite armed central police. When they engage in sedition, fifth column and armed abetted by enemy state terrorist activity they invite an armed response and at times from paramilitary or at times from the army it self, because the engagement becomes lethal. Its just an escalation.

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5 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

But in Canadian law, getting independence for a territory is NOT just the decision of the territory, it is a decision of the entire nation- i.e. the ENTIRE nation gets to vote if a part will break away or not. As it should. The logic is simple. To apply Canadian legal logic to Kashmir would be akin to this :

Not sure if that is accurate if you mean individuals in every province would be voting on it. A province in Canada can go for a referendum to get independence. If the majority in the province answer "yes", the province would then have to negotiate with the central government  .... Here is the Canadian Clarity Act -> LINK

 

Until there is "clarity" on this issue, QC example could be considered as irrelevant to this topic

 

 

 

 

Edited by rett

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