Dhoni v Rahim - who has been better wk-batsman in tests?

[Lannister]

On 11/13/2018 at 12:18 PM, ShoonyaSifar said:

Gilly is like the Don Bradman among keeper-batsman, no one will ever get close to what he did in Tests. Doesn't mean no one else will be a ATG among the keepers. 

 

But add the captaincy filter and suddenly no one will look getting close to Dhoni.

 

 

I overlooked this post earlier. What do you mean by captaincy filter? Dhoni was even more pathetic as a Test captain. 

[raki05]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

he kept wickets only in 82 tests, so consider those 82 tests for comparison with Dhoni where he played a wk/bat.  he did not play as a wk/bat for all 133 tests.  Boucher did not have keep wickets against likes of Kumble, Bhajji, Ashwin, Jaddu on rank turners as well.  it goes both ways.  Healy as a batsman was no where close to Dhoni.  

Than you should also consider batting position one was opening in English condition and another was piling on flat decks on the back of 200-300 run partnerships at 6th position. BTW if all these players were havin almost same AVG as dhoni how does he became ATG in test ,when none of these aforementioned names are not.

[Global.Baba]

Dhoni is absolutely an Indian ATG. Please don’t make him something he is not. 

 

 

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, The Dark Horse said:

Dhoni is not ATG in tests. ATG's meaning is he's significantly better/ standing out from peers. Gilchrist is one, Sanga is one, Andy Flower is one. Dhoni is not. He may be an Indian ATG that too purely with stats after battering hapless bowlers on flat wickets.

No. ATG does not mean significantly better or standing out from peers.  SRT and Dravid both are ATGs and they dont have to be standing out from each other. Why are you taking Sanga's name who only kept wickets in 48 tests? Even Sanga padded his his stats on flat SL pitches as a batsman. Regarding others, Gilchrist is an ATG.  same we can say about Flower but his keeping was atrocious.  he was more of a batsman who was made to keep.   

[velu]

2 hours ago, Lannister said:

I overlooked this post earlier. What do you mean by captaincy filter? Dhoni was even more pathetic as a Test captain. 

 

dhoni hates test cricket  

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

Than you should also consider batting position one was opening in English condition and another was piling on flat decks on the back of 200-300 run partnerships at 6th position. BTW if all these players were havin almost same AVG as dhoni how does he became ATG in test ,when none of these aforementioned names are not.

Did he open the innings as a wicket keeper? how many tests? He opened only as a specialist batsman and he was not a good keeper that is why Jack Russel kept for England for a long time.  Alec Stewart only opened the batting in 7 tests as a designated wicket keeper batsman.  2 in pakistan good batting pitches, 1 in India same good pitches for openers, 3 in WI and 1 in Aus.

 

which aforementioned names? Gilly and Flower are ATGs, there is no doubt.  Prior can be a candidate too but his keeping for the most past was sloppy.  Both Stewart and Prior were more like batsman who kept and their keeping was shoddy.  Dhoni did struggle against pacers but was still better than likes of Prior, Flower and Stewart and against spinners, Dhoni has no competition from these names.

[The Dark Horse]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

No. ATG does not mean significantly better or standing out from peers.  SRT and Dravid both are ATGs and they dont have to be standing out from each other. Why are you taking Sanga's name who only kept wickets in 48 tests? Even Sanga padded his his stats on flat SL pitches as a batsman. Regarding others, Gilchrist is an ATG.  same we can say about Flower but his keeping was atrocious.  he was more of a batsman who was made to keep.   

Sample size. You have a lot of batsmen, not like keepers. Sachin and Dravid tick certain criterias, like being a match winner, can save matches along with the tail, etc. Dhoni ticks none of those boxes (in tests). He's an above average keeper and an average batsman in tests. On what basis do you think he's ATG? Sangakarra was not given additional responsibilities as he excelled as a batsman and SL relied on his batting more, not because he was incapable of keeping. Dhoni also could have played only as a batsman, but the team could not afford to do that because he did jack outside India.

[raki05]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Did he open the innings as a wicket keeper? how many tests? He opened only as a specialist batsman and he was not a good keeper that is why Jack Russel kept for England for a long time.  Alec Stewart only opened the batting in 7 tests as a designated wicket keeper batsman.  2 in pakistan good batting pitches, 1 in India same good pitches for openers, 3 in WI and 1 in Aus.

 

which aforementioned names? Gilly and Flower are ATGs, there is no doubt.  Prior can be a candidate too but his keeping for the most past was sloppy.  Both Stewart and Prior were more like batsman who kept and their keeping was shoddy.  Dhoni did struggle against pacers but was still better than likes of Prior, Flower and Stewart and against spinners, Dhoni has no competition from these names.

Do you have any evidence to show that dhoni was better keeper than flower, prior or Stewart. Looks like fast stumping in last few years have brainwashed many people, who simply forget how he used to drop catches in test or letting it pass through between him and sleep. Dhoni is inferior to prior, Stewart and much inferior to flower and just like these players are no atg dhoni as well is not.

[raki05]

Looks like some of the test inning he played in limited over internationals in past few years, have made people think what a great test player he was.

[Pollack]

Dhoni isn't atg wicketkeeper but an Indian great(as a player) and Indian ATG as a wicketkeeper.Since he failed in two of the three formats popular in his time he lacks all-round ability and doesn't pass to become ATG player 

On topic, Rahim may or may not be a better batsman/keeper but I would surely pick dhoni 10/10 times over Mushfiqur without any hesitation. 

 

[jusarrived]

6 hours ago, The Dark Horse said:

Dhoni is not ATG in tests. ATG's meaning is he's significantly better/ standing out from peers. Gilchrist is one, Sanga is one, Andy Flower is one. Dhoni is not. He may be an Indian ATG that too purely with stats after battering hapless bowlers on flat wickets.

That's some serious high standards . Most batsmen are not as good as their stats suggest if you take out the runs against hapless blowers on flat wickets . Sanga scored bulk of his runs at home on flat wickets too .

[The Dark Horse]

2 hours ago, jusarrived said:

That's some serious high standards . Most batsmen are not as good as their stats suggest if you take out the runs against hapless blowers on flat wickets . Sanga scored bulk of his runs at home on flat wickets too .

Not denying that Dhoni is an Indian ATG, even in tests. Sanga did score against hapless bowlers on flat wickets, but also did against good bowlers in alien conditions. That's the difference between ATG and just a good player. Dhoni averages 29 outside Asia whereas Sanga averages 47.

Edited November 14, 2018 by The Dark Horse

[Global.Baba]

Firstly there is no category as a ATG keeper-bat. If that is the criteria and we put Dhoni in it, then we need to work our way towards inducting likes of Prior and even guys like Sarfaraz Ahmed and Kamran Akmal as 2nd tier ATGs lol.

 

You are either an ATG keeper or you are an ATG allrounder. Gilchrist makes a case for being an ATG allrounder and on keeping skills alone having kept to Warne,McGrath,McGill,Lee,Gillespie  etc etc on various pitches and being a safe keeper he makes the ATG keeper category as well.

 

On Pure keeping skills Dhoni is not even as good as Mongia and More. 

 

As an allrounder we have all acknowledged he is Indias 2nd biggest MVP since Kapil Dev which makes him an Indian ATG handsdown.

 

In ODIs as a lower order bat and add to that his keeping he is definetely a 2nd tier ATG with Gilchrist being the only guy in the first tier in that category.

 

If you have an ATG attack of McGrath,Akram,Warne, Murali and Kallis or Ambrose in your line up, would you risk a keeper like Dhoni keeping to 3 guys who would create so many chances between keeper and skip? Or play it safe with someone like Dujon with Gilchrist being a shoo in of course. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Global.Baba

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, The Dark Horse said:

Not denying that Dhoni is an Indian ATG, even in tests. Sanga did score against hapless bowlers on flat wickets, but also did against good bowlers in alien conditions. That's the difference between ATG and just a good player. Dhoni averages 29 outside Asia whereas Sanga averages 47.

but Sanga did that as a specialist batsman, not as a wk/batsman. Sanga should not even be named as a WK/bat because he did not keep for two-thirds of his career and only blossomed as a batsman when he gave up keeping. why are you missing this point.  according to your logic even ABDV is an ATG WK/bat because he also was a keeper.

 

here is a record to look at.  Sanga as a designated keeper in Aus, SA, NZ, WI, England means outside SC averages 26 in 13 tests.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/50710.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;keeper=1;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

[SK_IH]

11 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

Firstly there is no category as a ATG keeper-bat. If that is the criteria and we put Dhoni in it, then we need to work our way towards inducting likes of Prior and even guys like Sarfaraz Ahmed and Kamran Akmal as 2nd tier ATGs lol.

 

You are either an ATG keeper or you are an ATG allrounder. Gilchrist makes a case for being an ATG allrounder and on keeping skills alone having kept to Warne,McGrath,McGill,Lee,Gillespie  etc etc on various pitches and being a safe keeper he makes the ATG keeper category as well.

 

On Pure keeping skills Dhoni is not even as good as Mongia and More. 

 

As an allrounder we have all acknowledged he is Indias 2nd biggest MVP since Kapil Dev which makes him an Indian ATG handsdown.

 

In ODIs as a lower order bat and add to that his keeping he is definetely a 2nd tier ATG with Gilchrist being the only guy in the first tier in that category.

 

If you have an ATG attack of McGrath,Akram,Warne, Murali and Kallis or Ambrose in your line up, would you risk a keeper like Dhoni keeping to 3 guys who would create so many chances between keeper and skip? Or play it safe with someone like Dujon with Gilchrist being a shoo in of course. 

in all time world xi, Dhoni gets ahead of Gilly. There are plenty of contenders for opening slot, not many for middle order.

[Global.Baba]

Just now, SK_IH said:

in all time world xi, Dhoni gets ahead of Gilly. There are plenty of contenders for opening slot, not many for middle order.

 There  is obviously a slot for only one keeper. In ODIs the only 3 guys who can make it in that role are Dhoni,Sanga and Gilchrist. No way Dhoni will be ahead of Gilchrist as the keeper atleast in my all time odi X1.

 

Anyways ATG X1’s etc are always subjective.

There is no real science to pick those. 

 

Also a hypothetical X1 will be packed with some great batsman so you don’t really need a keeper-bat to play at 5 or 6. I mean Dhoni is going to compete with guys like ABDV,Hussey,Bevan,Yuvraj etc.

 

 

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

 There  is obviously a slot for only one keeper. In ODIs the only 3 guys who can make it in that role are Dhoni,Sanga and Gilchrist. No way Dhoni will be ahead of Gilchrist as the keeper atleast in my all time odi X1.

 

Anyways ATG X1’s etc are always subjective.

There is no real science to pick those. 

 

Also a hypothetical X1 will be packed with some great batsman so you don’t really need a keeper-bat to play at 5 or 6. I mean Dhoni is going to compete with guys like ABDV,Hussey,Bevan,Yuvraj etc.

 

 

Yes, Dhoni is ahead as a middle order bat.  Gilchrist wont make it as an opener because he will have to fight with other openers.

[SK_IH]

14 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

 There  is obviously a slot for only one keeper. In ODIs the only 3 guys who can make it in that role are Dhoni,Sanga and Gilchrist. No way Dhoni will be ahead of Gilchrist as the keeper atleast in my all time odi X1.

 

Anyways ATG X1’s etc are always subjective.

There is no real science to pick those. 

 

Also a hypothetical X1 will be packed with some great batsman so you don’t really need a keeper-bat to play at 5 or 6. I mean Dhoni is going to compete with guys like ABDV,Hussey,Bevan,Yuvraj etc.

 

 

Yes subjective and Dhoni is comfortable ahead in my opnion. In his peak, i have not seen a more resourceful ODI cricketer than Dhoni. He is also at par with Hussey and Bevan and a keepr to boot. Gets in world xi comfortably.

Besides there are far better opening batsman than Gilly to fill openers slot

[putrevus]

On 11/14/2018 at 12:57 AM, raki05 said:

And who said a wicketkeeper batting at 6 should not score century. Besides there are Boucher, Alec Stewart, Sangakara(as an keeper bat), Johnny Bairstow,Ian Healy and few more were much better than him as a keeper bat what cricket were you watching where dhoni became legend in test. He is average keeper bat as per world standard nothing more so stop hyping him.

Since when Boucher is called better batsman than Dhoni. Healy are you kidding me is better than Dhoni.Sanga or ABDV don't count becuase they played majority of their career as batsmen. You just saw what happened with ABDV when he was forced to become keeper after Boucher .

 

Alex Stewart is better batsman but I am not sure he is better keeper than Dhoni. There is noone better than Dhoni other than Adam Gilchrist and Andy Flower.Dhoni has his issues as a keeper against fast bowling but he is beast against spinners.

[rkt.india]

28 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Since when Boucher is called better batsman than Dhoni. Healy are you kidding me is better than Dhoni.Sanga or ABDV don't count becuase they played majority of their career as batsmen. You just saw what happened with ABDV when he was forced to become keeper after Boucher .

 

Alex Stewart is better batsman but I am not sure he is better keeper than Dhoni. There is noone better than Dhoni other than Adam Gilchrist and Andy Flower.Dhoni has his issues as a keeper against fast bowling but he is beast against spinners.

and Andy Flower was ordinary keeper against both pace and spin.