Dada 2004 team vs Kohli 2019 Team in test , who ll win in Indian conditions ?

[AuxiliA]

The 2019 team will have the edge on most pitches of India. 

 

We must remember that the biggest asset that any team could have in test cricket are wicket-taking bowlers. A line up of Bumrah, Shami, Ashwin & Jadeja, wipes the floor with the 2004 team in this regard. 

 

Sure the Fab5 were better batsmen than the current lot, but there's no point scoring 1200 runs in a test match if your bowlers can't take 20 wkts. 

 

People also undervalue the importance of Jadeja's & Ashwin's lower order runs. They have GOAT like all round stats in India. This reduces the edge that the 2004 team had in batting to a considerable extent. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by AuxiliA

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, AuxiliA said:

 

We must remember that the biggest asset that any team could have in test cricket are wicket-taking bowlers. A line up of Bumrah, Shami, Ashwin & Jadeja, wipes the floor with the 2004 team in this regard. 

+ umesh, he avgs better then bhajji in home condition

 

[raki05]

10 minutes ago, AuxiliA said:

the biggest asset that any team could have in test cricket are wicket-taking bowlers

What about catching of our super V group in slip cordon.

[Gollum]

16 hours ago, Vilander said:

Current teams batting is much weaker than Ganguly team. And fab 5 might be able to counter the current bowlers.

Fab 5 wasn't a finished product in 2004. Only Dravid and Sehwag were close to their peak. 

[Gollum]

16 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

That Nov 2004 team was in decline. Better to pick the 2004 team that toured Pakistan earlier in the year. Drew a series in Eng, Australia and WI, won vs Pakistani in Pak..the real trendsetters after the horrible 90s. Plus the only team that stopped the invincible Aussies home and away in 2000s

WRONG.

We were humiliated by WI in the 2002 series, lost 5 test series 1-2 after taking a lead. Made a hero out of a nobody like Pedro Collins, we were dominated badly in 4 out of those 5 tests. 

[AuxiliA]

4 minutes ago, raki05 said:

What about catching of our super V group in slip cordon.

Well Saha is a much better keeper than DK. That should compensate for the current lot's ineptness to some extent. 

Plus I could foresee Sir Jadeja running out Viru paji atleast a couple of times in a series. 

[Gollum]

15 hours ago, Stan AF said:

People overhyping the present team. Lest not forget that this is the same team which lost 7 test matches to subpar SENA teams last year.

Thread topic is about Indian conditions, we are on a 27-1 run here including multiple whitewashes. 

[Gollum]

Some of the posts here are hilarious. Let me break it down for the simpletons. As a courtesy I will be very generous towards the 2004 team, they were my heroes too, and a great part of childhood, don't want to humiliate them.
 

2004 vs 2019 player by player comparison

 

Sehwag>Rohit

Gambhir<Mayank....GG was a rookie and peaked much later

Dravid=Pujara....Pujara is better in Indian conditions esp against spin but I will call it a draw cos RD was clutch and shouldered a great deal of responsibility

Sachin<Kohli....no contest really, tennis elbow Sachin was a liability, previous year he averaged less than Murali, this is close to peak version of VK

VVS>Rahane...no contest

Ganguly<Jadeja...Gangu was in decline by then, about to be dropped, besides Jaddu is an ace AR

DK<Saha...latter is a slightly better batsman and far far far superior keeper

Pathan<Ashwin...Bambi vs Godzilla

Harbhajan=Umesh...home pitches and former not being allowed to use doosra..again Harbhajan wasn't exactly in great form in the 2003-06 period despite being allowed to chuck merrily. If people want to rate him higher I don't mind but I have low tolerance for cheats.

Kumble>Ishant...Bambi vs Godzilla 2.0

Zaheer<Shami...Zak was **** in that phase of his career

 

Verdict: 2019 team wins 6-3 with 2 draws. Siting in the bench of 2019 team are Pant, Kuldeep and Bumrah..possibly all 3 will make AT Indian XI when their careers are over. 

 

Other factors:

1. Pack mentality of this bowling unit is next level, greater than sum of its parts. In tests need 20 wickets to win, fundamental truth that has stayed the same in 120 years history of our sport. 

 

2. Captaincy difference....Dada was a defensive captain and that side was content with winning a match and drawing the rest, never risking defeat to gain victory. Kohli is aggressive, backs his bowlers and hunts for wins even in the unlikeliest of surfaces. Could 2004 team have taken 20 wickets in Vizag pitch where we played RSA?

 

3. 2004 team has an edge in catching but can't overlook the difference between DK and Saha. Moreover this unit is used to creating more than 20 chances every match.

 

4. Both teams vulnerable on day 5, both sides poor in 4th innings. Stop overrating the mental midgets in that 2004 team. Don't take everyone here for fools, we know the 4th innings prowess of Sachin, Sehwag, Dada etc. In 2004 they were worse. 

 

5. On paper the 2004 team's batting may appear formidable but Sachin was going through his worst phase, Gambhir was a non-entity, Dada an embarrassment even for his die-hard fans, Laxman inconsistent. Dravid was holding that middle order together, once Viru and RD were back in the pavilion we know how vulnerable that batting line up was. The difference in batting strength between these units is almost non-existent IMHO.....lower order runs of this team is a massive advantage. 

 

6. Match up disadvantage. That Sachin was vulnerable against SLAs (Jaddu), mystery spin (Ash) and quick in-dipping bowling (Shami). Shami would have troubled RD/VVS as well, Sehwag would have been tested early in the innings, Gambhir/Dada/Pathan of 2004 easy prey for Ashwin. 2004 quicks have nothing in their arsenal to trouble this unit, Kumble would have been a challenge on deteriorating surfaces but otherwise not unplayable. Harbhajan sans doosra=Darthbhajan. Part timers would be taken to the cleaners. I see this team consistently putting up massive totals, for the 2004 team to return favor a lot rides on Sehwag. 

 

7. 2019 team has winning mentality, borrowing the term from that CSK troll Unknown Genius. When you watch them play you know they are going to make a comeback no matter how dire the match situation. In India they don't fold meekly....Pune was a lone exception. In that epic 2017 Aus series, half our team was injured (proved in IPL that followed), fatigue after long home season, Kohli out of sorts, 0-1 down and in big trouble in Bengaluru.....what happened after that? Che-Rahane partnership against all odds, Ash with hernia getting a 6fer to defend a low total. Spirit of champions. Did we ask for a rank turner in Dharamsala? No, we prepared a pitch more to Australia's liking, lost the toss, saw them get a great start and crushed them from there !!!! Same core completed an unlikely comeback in 2015 SL after Galle heartbreak/robbery, stopped the RSA overseas juggernaut in 2015, overcame Eng's 1st innings 400+ scores on pattas...never say die spirit exemplified in SC conditions.  

 

8. This team never complains about conditions. No last minute fake injuries depending on grass cover on pitch. 

9. 2019 team doesn't obsess over personal milestones. Kohli could have gone for a 300 against RSA, Mayank could slowed down for a 300 against BD, we could have batted an extra day at Indore, many declarations and upping of tempo when players are in 70s/80s etc. Goal is to win matches. Quite unlike the 2004 team where a superstar started sulking when the skipper gave precedence to team's 1st ever victory in Pakistan over his 200. So many draws in that period just because players chased milestones.

 

10. Fitness, bench strength, game plan, attitude all fine-tuned to make this team invincible at home. Also way more versatile this unit, unlike Nagpur 2004 this team won't **** its pants if it sees something unexpected. 

 

Don't be surprised if 27-1 swells to 45-1 in 3 years time. This is the GOAT Indian side at home. 2004 is a joke comparison. If the 2 teams are to play say 10 tests with tosses being split 5-5 this team will stomp 6-2 or even more. Half the victories will be by innings margin where Dada's team would do well to take the game to day 5. 2 wins for 2004 because of Sehwag and their advantage on rank turners, otherwise that team is too under-powered. I genuinely think that 2008-10 team will give a tougher fight but ultimately lose...greater batting strength, winning mentality, Dhoni, peak Zak but no spin stocks to speak of. Maybe that team may earn more draws but won't prevail over King Kohli's XI. 

 

I know it is human nature to overrate the past and underrate the present, I have been guilty of doing this many times. But time to take pride and enjoy the greatness of this test team in SC conditions, they deserve every bit of adulation coming their way. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

19 minutes ago, Gollum said:

 

Dravid=Pujara....Pujara is better in Indian conditions esp against spin but I will call it a draw cos RD was clutch and shouldered a great deal of responsibility

But dravid will be troubled by Shami ...even umesh n bumrah 

and pujara has to face zak, irfan which shudnt be that much of a problem n vs kumble n bhajji ...well he is one of the best players of spin bowling

Quote

 

Harbhajan=Umesh...home pitches and former not being allowed to use doosra..again Harbhajan wasn't exactly in great form in the 2003-06 period despite being allowed to chuck merrily. If people want to rate him higher I don't mind but I have low tolerance for cheats.

Bhajji had an avg 28 at home , umesh under 26 at home . What helps umesh is so many support bowler who give nothing away as compare to bhajji who had jst kumble to keep it under control from other end

Quote

Kumble>Ishant...Bambi vs Godzilla 2.0

Verdict: 2019 team wins 6-3 with 2 draws. Siting in the bench of 2019 team are Pant, Kuldeep and Bumrah..possibly all 3 will make AT Indian XI when their careers are over. 

If not for injury bumrah wud be playing n it be 

Kumble vs bumrah 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Gollum]

7 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

But dravid will be troubled by Shami ...even umesh n bumrah 

and pujara has to face zak, irfan which shudnt be that much of a problem n vs kumble n bhajji ...well he is one of the best players of spin bowling

Bhajji had an avg 28 at home , umesh under 26 at home . What helps umesh is so many support bowler who give nothing away as compare to bhajji who had jst kumble to keep it under control from other end

If not for injury bumrah wud be playing n it be 

Kumble vs bumrah 

 

Pata hai bhai, I don't want to mock the 2004 players, warna bahut logon ko bura lagega. Nostalgia plays a part, so don't really blame them. Truth be told this team will annihilate the 2004 team, match ups matter and that team is an easy opponent for King Kohli's men. 

[express bowling]

16 hours ago, maniac said:

I don’t think the current gen bar Pujara don’t have the patience to bat long innings.

 

The moment the ball stars swinging  and zipping, some of our batsmen start to go into T20 mode in tests . I used to make fun of Dhoni and Jadeja for doing that in tests but I have even seen our main batsmen Rahane, Rahul and  Rohit do that.

 

Kohli or Rohit or even Rahane might play some flamboyant innings that looks better than Laxman, Sachin or even Dravid(has he played any in tests) but they cannot even come close to the grit of those guys to bat hours against venemous bowling in tough conditions.

 

 

Rohit is not in the same league as Kohli or even Rahane as far as playing long innings in SENA tests when the ball is moving or zipping. And Kohli is better than Laxman in this respect.

 

Long innings by Kohli and Rahane when ball was moving or zipping around 

 

Kohli ----

 

Jo ' burg       2013 ....  119

Melbourne.  2018 ....  123

Nottingham 2018 ....  103

Birmingham 2018 .... 149

Nottingham 2018 ....   97

Perth.           2012 ....    75

 

Rahane ----

 

Lords.         2014 .... 103

Wellington 2014 .... 118

 

 

Can off hand think of one big innings by Laxman when the ball was moving

 

Napier 2009  ....  124 not out

 

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

Now we have people who are making Laxman a better batsman than Kohli.I like Laxman but he nor Dravid are anywhere close to Kohli as batsman even in test cricket.Laxman was awful against swing.Dravid was awful in Australia / SL/SA barring one series in 2004 .

[adi B]

9 hours ago, Gollum said:

2004 team yaar, not peak otherwise we can bring in Ash/Kohli/Che/Saha 2016 versions, Jaddu/Umesh 2017 etc to counter them. You know how bad Sachin was in the tennis elbow phase, Gambhir hit his strides only in 2008, Dada was about to be dropped because of non-performance, Zak was useless.....

Bhajji without doosra wasn't a threat. Seriously hope no chucking or ball tampering is taken into consideration in these hypothetical contests, let it be a fair fight.

Ok but still on rank Turners kohli wala team will struggle hard if they lose the toss ,its not as straightforward as one might feel.

[Ankit_sharma03]

In Indian condition

 

umesh now avg 24.54....kumble 24.88

Shami n jaddu already avg 20 around

Ashwin is around 22

 

So umesh, shami, ashwin, jadeja now all avg better then kumble who has the best avg in that team 

 

[Trichromatic]

2004 team can draw all the games at best.

[zen]

2004 batting vs 2019 bowlin

 

I guess, Sehwag is the key player. If he is in form, 2004 side has the advantage. If not, the 2019  team is a well well oiled Test unit with Pujara-Kohli, and the bowlers, who win test matches 

 

if Sehwag is in form like he was in Pak in 2004, the 2019 bowlers would be at his mercy (taking the bowling advantage out of 2019 side) 

[nevada]

15 minutes ago, Cricspin said:

I just wanted to revisit this thread. How this 2019 team can have automatic win over the Ganguly team.

This 2020 team can thrash any opposition - but mostly in hypothetical matches. 

[Stan AF]

Ideally it isn't important that they win in India or not!. Question should be why this 2020 team is failing in SENA?.

[R!TTER]

15 minutes ago, Cricspin said:

Had call really. Never an easy black and white answer in comparisons of past and present.

I'll still say that 2004 team, peak Sehwag is unmatched in Indian conditions. Of course peak SRT is unmatched away, unlike usurper pretender Brat 

[Gollum]

Why has this thread been bumped today ? Guys Basin Reserve isn't in India...boys deserve brickbats for this performance but they haven't done anything wrong in Ind conditions.