Should Siraj play over Umesh in D/N test?

[sandeep]

18 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

You don't need Huge movement to get wickets. You just need to get the nicks because he bowls wicket taking length. Warrier swings the ball too in fact more than Siraj but his bowling is floaty when he goes fuller. Siraj also moves the ball both ways. Siraj is sharper at the fuller length and hits the deck better to extract seam movement with red ball which has been evident in his outings with India A. He keeps threatening both sides of the edges. Though team has to go with what they are doing in the nets. Both Saini and Siraj are gambles as they haven't played in Aus before AFAIK but if they give green track at Adelaide, it will be better to go with Siraj. 

Don't disagree with most of this.  My only point is that claiming that Siraj gets "more movement" than Saini does, isn't really based on fact.  

 

Gun to my head, I'm likely to pick Siraj over Saini as well, if someone can assure me that Siraj can be managed to avoid turning into spraygun a la young Umesh Yadav, in a crunch situation.  The composition of India's first choice bowling attack - Bumrah, Shami, Ishant - was such that we could afford to have Shami leak a bit in pursuit of wickets, because we could rely on Ishant to be a reliable workhorse - one bowling a bunch of quality tight overs, while being a wicket-taking threat at the same time. 

 

Adding a potentially flaky Siraj - who arguably is more of a wicket-taker than Saini - carries a risk, not just on an individual level, but because it would force a Bumrah to modify his bowling tactics.  That is the only question mark over Siraj for me.  FWIW, the perception I have of Saini, is that he may be better suited at delivering competently in a 3rd seamer role. 

 

But all of this is pissing in the wind.  All we can do is hope for the best.  Its situations like these that frustrate me because Siraj could have debuted in a home Hyderabad test earlier, but wasn't given that chance because of short-sighted selection policies.  

[Vilander]

Umesh had poor fields set in previous series, but we all know its more than that. May be we will see how far Saini has come in LOI series. But i think Siraj might play ahead of Umesh. 

[Vilander]

40 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

if they give green track at Adelaide, it will be better to go with Siraj. 

this , i am sure its in limbo whether or not go for a green track.. need to get a few tosses our way.

[Vilander]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

the perception I have of Saini, is that he may be better suited at delivering competently in a 3rd seamer role.

key would be to see how Saini goes in flat LOI pitches. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Don't disagree with most of this.  My only point is that claiming that Siraj gets "more movement" than Saini does, isn't really based on fact.  

 

i havent seen warrier bowl a lot but 

Saini vs Siraj diff is length- He gets more movement coz he pitches is fuller whereas saini bowls short of length mostly 

 

Even in IPL when Siraj got siwng he got wkts , now i know its white ball but swing is swing

 

18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Gun to my head, I'm likely to pick Siraj over Saini as well, if someone can assure me that Siraj can be managed to avoid turning into spraygun a la young Umesh Yadav, in a crunch situation.  The composition of India's first choice bowling attack - Bumrah, Shami, Ishant - was such that we could afford to have Shami leak a bit in pursuit of wickets, because we could rely on Ishant to be a reliable workhorse - one bowling a bunch of quality tight overs, while being a wicket-taking threat at the same time. 

 

Problem with umesh he doesnt have same control with Kookbura n duke as he has with SG, Siraj on India has done well with those 2 balls 

 

[sandeep]

39 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Even in IPL when Siraj got siwng he got wkts ,

T20 wickets are completely different than tests.  

[New guy]

100%. One of the biggest reason for our poor show in England was lack of new ball wickets. The kiwi bowlers easily outbowled our seamers because they were able to swing the ball instead of just relying on seam

[cowboysfan]

heck ya,we know how Umesh bowls outside india.

[vishalvirsingh]

My Pick for first test would be Jasprit, Shammi, SAINI ahead of Siraj and Umesh would be the last option.

 

if they play 4 pacers i will pick Saini and Siraj both. Umesh has to show his form. 

[putrevus]

So Siraj not playing in India vs WI will hamper his performance against Australia.He might have bowled 25 overs in that test.Playing in India will never give a proper picture for an Indian fast bowler. If they go for runs even in their first spell , spinners are there to clean up their mess. There is no such cushion when these guys play overseas. 

[Vilander]

27 minutes ago, vishalvirsingh said:

My Pick for first test would be Jasprit, Shammi, SAINI ahead of Siraj and Umesh would be the last option.

 

if they play 4 pacers i will pick Saini and Siraj both. Umesh has to show his form. 

 

why Saini ahead of Siraj - what ever 5 to 10 ks speed diff wont matter much in Aus. Siraj seems to have done better in A tours and even in IPL

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

T20 wickets are completely different than tests.  

if u pitch it up and swing it hows it different

 

https://www.iplt20.com/video/220188/siraj-picks-2-in-2?tagNames=indian-premier-league,ipl-magic

 

 

watch these 2 balls n tell me how are they not test match dismissal , there was swing and he very well exploited it

[sandeep]

52 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

if u pitch it up and swing it hows it different

 

https://www.iplt20.com/video/220188/siraj-picks-2-in-2?tagNames=indian-premier-league,ipl-magic

 

 

watch these 2 balls n tell me how are they not test match dismissal , there was swing and he very well exploited it

For one thing, I wouldn't expect a test batsman to play a 6th stump delivery trying to glide it with an open face to gully.  Upwards of 90% of the time, that 1st ball will be left alone by batsmen.  Especially against the new ball. 

 

And Rana left a gateway of India between bat and pad for that 2nd one to go through. 

 

Both "batsmen" were under the T20 pressure to make every ball count.  

 

Just you asking the question "hows it different" - says it all really.  

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

So Siraj not playing in India vs WI will hamper his performance against Australia.He might have bowled 25 overs in that test.Playing in India will never give a proper picture for an Indian fast bowler. If they go for runs even in their first spell , spinners are there to clean up their mess. There is no such cushion when these guys play overseas. 

Given the lack of Ishant, this makes Jadeja  an automatic starter for me.  He can provide control and bowl a big chunk of overs, managing the over rate as well as the scoring rate.  Absolute must-have in the team.

[zen]

Ask Count Dracula Pujara on whose blood he found more difficult to suck

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

For one thing, I wouldn't expect a test batsman to play a 6th stump delivery trying to glide it with an open face to gully.  Upwards of 90% of the time, that 1st ball will be left alone by batsmen.  Especially against the new ball. 

 

And Rana left a gateway of India between bat and pad for that 2nd one to go through. 

 

Both "batsmen" were under the T20 pressure to make every ball count.  

 

Just you asking the question "hows it different" - says it all really.  

 

Not anymore most batsman these days have developed this bad white ball habbits, the question is if he can do this in red ball doesnt even come coz he did in A games like no one else.....40 wkts in 5 games is phenomenal and that to not just in indian condition 

Batsman these around the world have huge chinks in their technique in test cricket , the point here is can he swing or not rather batsman technique he can and he did it here ...those 2 balls swung it wasnt just poor shot whereas saini bowls short of good length mostly and u cant swing from that length 

 

 

yaha bhi scoreboard ka pressure tha ? Look how much that 1st ball swung infact all coz its pitched up

 

 

 

Here are more examples of pitching the ball up and swinging it

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

@sandeep- ur talking about this game , so whats the issue here ...he did pitch it up and swung it as well here to but its visible that much wasnt at offer so he used other tools specially when ball wud have gone old

 

 

 

[Gollum]

Siraj for D/N test, Saini back to replace him at the Big G, Jaddu should start in both tests ahead of Ash. Based on how they perform and how the series unfolds, we can decide who to play in Sydney. Umesh should be limited to giving practice in nets, anyway long season ahead and we will need to rotate quicks, Umesh will be a definite starter against Eng at home. Sabko chance milega over the next 12 months. 

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, sandeep said:

Don't disagree with most of this.  My only point is that claiming that Siraj gets "more movement" than Saini does, isn't really based on fact.  

 

Gun to my head, I'm likely to pick Siraj over Saini as well, if someone can assure me that Siraj can be managed to avoid turning into spraygun a la young Umesh Yadav, in a crunch situation.  The composition of India's first choice bowling attack - Bumrah, Shami, Ishant - was such that we could afford to have Shami leak a bit in pursuit of wickets, because we could rely on Ishant to be a reliable workhorse - one bowling a bunch of quality tight overs, while being a wicket-taking threat at the same time. 

 

Adding a potentially flaky Siraj - who arguably is more of a wicket-taker than Saini - carries a risk, not just on an individual level, but because it would force a Bumrah to modify his bowling tactics.  That is the only question mark over Siraj for me.  FWIW, the perception I have of Saini, is that he may be better suited at delivering competently in a 3rd seamer role. 

 

But all of this is pissing in the wind.  All we can do is hope for the best.  Its situations like these that frustrate me because Siraj could have debuted in a home Hyderabad test earlier, but wasn't given that chance because of short-sighted selection policies.  

For me, it comes down to nerves. Saini is more calm usually. Siraj can be nervous wreck and this is a huge doubt over Siraj.

Edited November 25, 2020 by rkt.india

[Lone Wolf]

Bowling  line up for D/N test should be

Siraj

Shami 

Bumrah 

Ashwin (his variations may come handy with Pink ball under lights) 

 

Ultra aggressive approach would be to play Kuldeep as lone spinner as leggies are considered to be much tougher to play under lights with Pink ball

Edited November 25, 2020 by Lone Wolf