The seasonal "Sachin was not that great" thread.

[diga]

^ Tendulkar barring Dravid has played the most matches in that period

[Vk1]

Pitches play such a crucial part in test cricket and overseas teams in the past had an inherent advantage... If South Africa went to Eng/NZ/Aus/WI and even Pakistan they mostly encountered familiar pitches which are sort of similar to their home pitches. So unless they came to India/SL ( Bangla were minnows and barely anyone played there ).. they rarely had to play vicious turning spin pitches.  Quite an advantage to retain form throughout. 

 

On the other hand, we barely played tests in Srilanka and almost nothing with Pak , so we were always touring in alien conditions.

[zen]

52 minutes ago, Gambit said:

 

This is what this table for this period looks like away from home without minnow West Indies against who many filled their boots after Ambrose and Walsh retired.  

 

What is the point when in the away avg per "your table" in that period there is hardly any difference and when overall Kallis has a much better record when he comes in at the score of 100 or less (avg 56 v 46), while doing bowling duties as well .... Also note WI may be a minnow for some of other teams but Ind lost a series in 2002 and only squeezed out wins in 2006 and 2011 w. Tendulkar avg 41 (Dravid, Lax and Sehwag all avg 50+)?  

 

 

Quote

If you do this analysis over their careers away from home, Kallis' away average is 48 - a full 8 points below his career average vs a 1 point drop for Tendulkar.

 

So if K avg 56 at home (59 in MO), 50 away (55 in MO) while also batting in the top order and bowling, and T avg 50 at home and 52 away, I guess it is supposed to tell something significant about away .... 

 

 

Player K

Primary team South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India or New Zealand  or Pakistan or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Batting position between 4 and 7

Ordered by default (ascending)

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1995-2013	166	280	40	13289	224	55.37	28903	45.97	45	58	16	1488	97
filtered	1998-2012	51	87	13	4076	182*	55.08	9129	44.64	14	17	3	439	27

 

 

Plater T

Opposition team Australia  or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Ordered by default (ascending)

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	29437+	54.04*	51	68	14	2058+	69
filtered	1989-2012	95	160	13	7645	241*	52.00	14148	54.03	24	34	9	998	28

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by zen

[Gollum]

Imagine if we posted all the Sachin stuff in a mega thread instead of distributing across 1500 threads, we could have created a longest thread WR or something like that. And with that Sachin takes pole position from Dhoni, Kohli as most discussed player here on ICF, again at the age of 47 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Gollum

[SanjuManju]

Look, Tendulkar was a good batsman in his own right particularly given his limitations but longevity aside, he is massively overrated

 

the easiest positions to bat are middle order in test cricket and opening in ODI and Sachin did both.

 

he is not in my top 3 ODI or test cricketers for India. Forget T 20.

Edited January 5, 2021 by SanjuManju

[zen]

12 minutes ago, SanjuManju said:

Look, Tendulkar was a good batsman in his own right particularly given his limitations but longevity aside, he is massively overrated

 

One of the top 5 overrated cricketers of all time .... I guess, people in India support him due to "emotional" reasons (unwarranted in sports)

[Real McCoy]

8 hours ago, sandeep said:

Dravid had to be hidden at #6 in the iconic Kolkata series - because he stank it up balls against that top Australian team - both home and away.  Lost the #3 spot to VVS for almost 2 years.  To his credit, Dravid improved and got his act together and became a much better batsman later on, in the 2000s, and was able to stat-pad his way to some flawed comparisons.  But you don't compare a Bajaj to a BMW.  Or maybe some folks do.

 

Next you folks will be telling me that pawns in chess are more valuable than the queen, because they "start" out front.  

 

 

Whenever SRT is criticized, Dravid gets a lot of heat. Even when Dravid retired, someone said he's not that great in the thread on his retirement And you wonder why everyone hates Sachinistas. RD didnt lose the 3 spot for 2 years. He gained it within an year. Remove your sachinista glasses maybe you'll see he regained the 3 spot in 2001 itself as VVS didnt hang on to it in the SA tour. Ideal situation for SRT to move to 3 but he let it go. Why? we all know the answer :)

I didn't know that Bradman and Ponting were bajajs   They also batted at 3 unlike Sachin. LOL at RD stat padding. Stat padding was an art SRT mastered after his dream season 1998. There was questions around the time about his inability to score big daddy hundreds like Lara. So he meandered his way to a boring 200 against NZ and Zim at home to get those 200's. Even his 200 against Aus wasnt that impressive. When the situation required him to accelerate, he bored everyone including the SCG audience to a boring 240 without hitting a cover drive while VVS was scoring like he has at the nets. Jeez are you saying the top order are pawns. SRT is a queen alright. @Rasgulla post that pic

[SanjuManju]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

One of the top 5 overrated cricketers of all time .... I guess, people in India support him due to "emotional" reasons (unwarranted in sports)

People who have not played the game or do not have much going on in their personal lives support him for validation. They live vicariously through him and any mild criticism of Tendulkar is seen as a personal attack on the individual

 

its high time cricketers are judged for what they are without external factors influencing some sort of bias

 

i agree he is top 5 overrated of all time. For me maybe the most overrated Indian cricketer ever

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, SanjuManju said:

Look, Tendulkar was a good batsman in his own right particularly given his limitations but longevity aside, he is massively overrated

 

the easiest positions to bat are middle order in test cricket and opening in ODI and Sachin did both.

 

he is not in my top 3 ODI or test cricketers for India. Forget T 20.

Lmfao I hate tendu as well..  But that doesn't mean he's limited lol...  He's the only guy I have watched in Indian cricket to have all the shots..   Cut pull flick backfoot punnch drive sweep & u name it..  Better than lolli who has only three drive  flick pull..  Who''s limited lol

[Jamadagni]

Having gone through the posts, being a neutral in this discussion, I find Zen's and McCoy's points a lot more convincing than others. There is a lot of bias for Sachin from Indian fans, which I think is understandable. It is similar to how Bangladesh fans hype Shakib, who is the first world class player for them. 

 

I also believe Sachin is overhyped. He was good? Yes. One of the best? Yes. But there were others who were equally as good, heck you can even make pretty good arguments for others being better than Sachin. In his 24 years of LONG LONG career, Sachin never had a "peak" like Ponting/Smith/others. Moreover, he never could score "Big" scores either like Lara; neither does he bat in tough conditions like Kallis. In what metric, Sachin is better against others?

Edited January 5, 2021 by Jamadagni

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Whenever SRT is criticized, Dravid gets a lot of heat. Even when Dravid retired, someone said he's not that great in the thread on his retirement And you wonder why everyone hates Sachinistas. RD didnt lose the 3 spot for 2 years. He gained it within an year. Remove your sachinista glasses maybe you'll see he regained the 3 spot in 2001 itself as VVS didnt hang on to it in the SA tour. Ideal situation for SRT to move to 3 but he let it go. Why? we all know the answer :)

I didn't know that Bradman and Ponting were bajajs   They also batted at 3 unlike Sachin. LOL at RD stat padding. Stat padding was an art SRT mastered after his dream season 1998. There was questions around the time about his inability to score big daddy hundreds like Lara. So he meandered his way to a boring 200 against NZ and Zim at home to get those 200's. Even his 200 against Aus wasnt that impressive. When the situation required him to accelerate, he bored everyone including the SCG audience to a boring 240 without hitting a cover drive while VVS was scoring like he has at the nets. Jeez are you saying the top order are pawns. SRT is a queen alright. @Rasgulla post that pic

 

Ironically, Dravid's #3 position is being discussed when Ten was not even considered (good enough?) to bat there .... In the MO, Dravid outperforms Tendulkar too when both McGrath & Warne are playing

 

 

#4-7:

View overall figures

Primary team Australia or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies  or Zimbabwe

Opposition team Australia

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1995

Wicketkeeper not as wicketkeeper

Involving all of the players GD McGrath (AUS)  or SK Warne (AUS)

Batting position between 4 and 7

Qualifications batting average greater than or equal to 40  and runs scored greater than or equal to 200  and matches played greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
BC Lara (WI)	1996-2005	9	16	1	1007	226	67.13	1729	58.24	4	2	0	130	8
KP Pietersen (ENG)	2005-2007	8	16	2	804	158	57.42	1420	56.61	2	5	1	80	13
R Dravid (INDIA)	1999-2004	4	6	0	332	180	55.33	735	45.17	1	1	0	37	1
CL Cairns (NZ)	1997-2001	7	11	0	557	109	50.63	879	63.36	1	4	0	62	15
GP Thorpe (ENG)	1995-2001	8	15	2	598	138	46.00	1060	56.41	2	3	1	82	0
WJ Cronje (SA)	1997-1998	5	9	1	367	88	45.87	819	44.81	0	4	2	38	3
JH Kallis (SA)	1997-2006	9	17	3	624	111	44.57	1424	43.82	1	5	0	76	1
NJ Astle (NZ)	2000-2005	11	21	2	811	156*	42.68	1507	53.81	1	5	1	108	1
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1999-2004	7	14	0	592	126	42.28	1067	55.48	2	4	1	76	3
PD Collingwood (ENG)	2005-2007	6	12	1	450	206	40.90	1054	42.69	1	1	0	46	2
HP Tillakaratne (SL)	1995-1996	3	6	0	245	119	40.83	592	41.38	1	1	0	17	0

Edited January 5, 2021 by zen

[SanjuManju]

3 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Lmfao I hate tendu as well..  But that doesn't mean he's limited lol...  He's the only guy I have watched in Indian cricket to have all the shots..   Cut pull flick backfoot punnch drive sweep & u name it..  Better than lolli who has only three drive  flick pull..  Who''s limited lol

I didn’t say limited player in terms of shots. I said he had limitations such as height. Like when he got out LBW to a McGrath bouncer 

[Real McCoy]

14 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Lmfao I hate tendu as well..  But that doesn't mean he's limited lol...  He's the only guy I have watched in Indian cricket to have all the shots..   Cut pull flick backfoot punnch drive sweep & u name it..  Better than lolli who has only three drive  flick pull..  Who''s limited lol

Nobody is debating his skills just that he's overrated by his enormous fans. He's an all-purpose player that can play pace and spin equally well

 

Edit: not to mention his rigidity in sticking to no.4 in tests and no.2 in ODIs (not taking first strike) like its his own property in a team sport which was my argument with new guy in the OP. Even the captain couldn't talk him out of it. That shows how much power he had as a senior and a star player. Also the constant whining about someone else denying his opportunity to score a century

Edited January 5, 2021 by Real McCoy

[zen]

19 minutes ago, SanjuManju said:

People who have not played the game or do not have much going on in their personal lives support him for validation. They live vicariously through him and any mild criticism of Tendulkar is seen as a personal attack on the individual

 

its high time cricketers are judged for what they are without external factors influencing some sort of bias

 

i agree he is top 5 overrated of all time. For me maybe the most overrated Indian cricketer ever

 

Good batsman similar to others in his segment including Kallis, Ponting, Dravid, ....  his whole career is hyped up for a relatively short peak during 1996-1999 period (when many players have had such or longer peaks), along w/ probable unwarranted influence of ODIs on how his test performance was/is perceived

Edited January 5, 2021 by zen

[Gambit]

4 hours ago, zen said:

What is the point when in the away avg per "your table" in that period there is hardly any difference and when overall Kallis has a much better record when he comes in at the score of 100 or less (avg 56 v 46), while doing bowling duties as well .... Also note WI may be a minnow for some of other teams but Ind lost a series in 2002 and only squeezed out wins in 2006 and 2011 w. Tendulkar avg 41 (Dravid, Lax and Sehwag all avg 50+)?  

 

 

So if K avg 56 at home (59 in MO), 50 away (55 in MO) while also batting in the top order and bowling, and T avg 50 at home and 52 away, I guess it is supposed to tell something significant about away .... 

4 hours ago, zen said:

What is the point when in the away avg per "your table" in that period there is hardly any difference and when overall Kallis has a much better record when he comes in at the score of 100 or less (avg 56 v 46), while doing bowling duties as well .... Also note WI may be a minnow for some of other teams but Ind lost a series in 2002 and only squeezed out wins in 2006 and 2011 w. Tendulkar avg 41 (Dravid, Lax and Sehwag all avg 50+)?  

 

 

 

So if K avg 56 at home (59 in MO), 50 away (55 in MO) while also batting in the top order and bowling, and T avg 50 at home and 52 away, I guess it is supposed to tell something significant about away .... 

 

 

Player K

Primary team South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India or New Zealand  or Pakistan or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Batting position between 4 and 7

Ordered by default (ascending)

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1995-2013	166	280	40	13289	224	55.37	28903	45.97	45	58	16	1488	97
filtered	1998-2012	51	87	13	4076	182*	55.08	9129	44.64	14	17	3	439	27

 

 

Plater T

Opposition team Australia  or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Ordered by default (ascending)

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	29437+	54.04*	51	68	14	2058+	69
filtered	1989-2012	95	160	13	7645	241*	52.00	14148	54.03	24	34	9	998	28

 

Player K

Primary team South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India or New Zealand  or Pakistan or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Batting position between 4 and 7

Ordered by default (ascending)

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1995-2013	166	280	40	13289	224	55.37	28903	45.97	45	58	16	1488	97
filtered	1998-2012	51	87	13	4076	182*	55.08	9129	44.64	14	17	3	439	27

 

 

Plater T

Opposition team Australia  or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Ordered by default (ascending)

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	29437+	54.04*	51	68	14	2058+	69
filtered	1989-2012	95	160	13	7645	241*	52.00	14148	54.03	24	34	9	998	28

 

 

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on away performances. Therefore, my table showed that Tendulkar outperforms Kallis away from home in 10 more innings during this period which doesn't include pretty much the entire 90s. West Indies is the poorest attack of them all; India didn't win in Zimbabwe in 2001 either but that doesn't mean we include them. During this period, Lara is sub-50 and Ponting isn't even in the table because his average is below 43. Thank you for your initial analysis without which we would have never been able to conclude that Tendulkar was the best batsman away from home in the 1999-2014 period.  

 

The point of these repeated exercises is to pit the best attribute of each batsman (peak period, 1-3 performance, performance in a particular country, point of entry stats ) and compare that to Tendulkar's to show why ABC is better than Tendulkar - any such creative exercise will deliver similar results for any batsman unless done so on a holistic basis where most batsman fare poorer to Tendulkar. Some simple examples as follows: (these aren't even creative like yours ).  

 

- Kallis averages a mere 35 in Sri Lanka and England

- Lara has only 1 matchwinning 100 after Ambrose and Walsh retired (Others like Sarwan and Chanderpaul have more). He is also the worst performer in the 4th innings away from home. Again, Sarwan and Chanderpaul are better.

- Steve Waugh's 4th innings average is 25

- Dravid averages sub-30 in South Africa and only 33 in Sri Lanka

- Ponting averages 26 in India and 45 away from home (all other ATG batsman are nearer to 50)

 

We should ideally have a thread with 150+ replies for each of these batsman on the above mediocre performances.

[Sooda]

 

16 hours ago, sandeep said:

There have been dozens of times where Tendulkar has batted against  the new ball with paltry team scores on the board.  No?

 

16 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

When? Show me an instance

 

@sandeep @Real McCoy

 

 

On 9/11/2020 at 10:40 AM, Sooda said:

Runs	Opponent	Venue	Date	Situation when he batted
58	vs Pakistan	Faisalabad	Nov 23, 89	101 for 4 – playing his second Test
57	vs Pakistan	Sialkot	Dec 9, 89	38 for 4 – in his fourth Test
119*	vs England	Manchester	Aug 9, 90	109 for 4 – facing defeat on last day
114	vs Australia	Perth	Feb 1, 92	69 for 2 – soon became 159 for 8
111	vs South Africa	Johannesburg	Nov 26, 92	27 for 2
85	vs West Indies	Mumbai	Nov 18, 94	11 for 3
179	vs West Indies	Nagpur	Dec 1, 94	49 for 2
122	vs England	Birmingham	Jun 6, 96	17 for 2
177	vs England	Nottingham	Jul 4, 96	33 for 2
169	vs South Africa	Cape Town	Jan 2, 97	25 for 3
92	vs West Indies	Bridgetown	Mar 27, 97	42 for 2 – on a fast wicket against Ambrose and Bishop
139	vs Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	Aug 9, 97	9 for 2
113	vs New Zealand	Wellington	Dec 26, 98	112 for 3 – after trailing by 104 in first innings
67	vs New Zealand	Hamilton	Jan 2, 99	17 for 2
136	vs Pakistan	Chennai	Jan 28, 99	6 for 2
116	vs Australia	Melbourne	Dec 26, 99	11 for 2
52	vs Australia	Melbourne	Dec 26, 99	40 for 2 – facing defeat
97	vs South Africa	Mumbai	Feb 24, 00	39 for 2 – solo battled to 173 for 8
76	vs Australia	Mumbai	Feb 27, 01	25 for 2
65	vs Australia	Mumbai	Feb 27, 01	58 for 2 – with one batsman retired hurt and facing innings defeat
69	vs Zimbabwe	Harare	Jun 15, 01	32 for 2
155	vs South Africa	Bloemfontein	Nov 3, 01	43 for 2 – later 65 for 4
90	vs England	Bangalore	Dec 19, 01	22 for 2
79	vs West Indies	Georgetown	Apr 11, 02	21 for 2
117	vs West Indies	Port of Spain	Apr 19, 02	38 for 2
86	vs West Indies	Kingston	May 18, 02	25 for 2
92	vs England	Nottingham	Aug 8, 02	11 for 2
176	vs West Indies	Kolkata	Oct 30, 02	11 for 2 – in second innings, facing defeat
51	vs New Zealand	Wellington	Dec 12, 02	31 for 2
55	vs Australia	Mumbai	Nov 3, 04	14 for 2
248*	vs Bangladesh	Dhaka	Dec 10, 04	24 for 2
63	vs South Africa	Durban	Dec 26, 06	35 for 2
62	vs Australia	Melbourne	Dec 26, 07	31 for 2
68	vs Australia	Delhi	Oct 29, 08	27 for 2
103*	vs England	Chennai	Dec 11, 08	141 for 2 – chasing 387 on last day on spinning track
100	vs South Africa	Nagpur	Feb 6, 10	24 for 2
84	vs Sri Lanka	Galle	Jul 18, 10	42 for 2
214	vs Australia	Bangalore	Oct 9, 10	38 for 2 – facing 478  run total in first innings
146	vs South Africa	Cape Town	Jan 2, 11	28 for 2
56	vs England	Nottingham	Jul 29, 11	13 for 2
91	vs England	The Oval	Aug 18, 11	64 for 2 – facing innings defeat

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sooda

[zen]

3 hours ago, Gambit said:

 

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on away performances .... 

I have posted what I place emphasis on already including in the post you quoted!

 

 

3 hours ago, Gambit said:

We should ideally have a thread with 150+ replies for each of these batsman on the above mediocre performances.

  
We could but most of the guys are not overrated - some are as good, some are better than Tendulkar

Edited January 5, 2021 by zen

[Gollum]

Forget the part that Sachin was a choker, or that he didn't have monster series, or that for majority of his career he never distinguished himself (from rest of competition like GOATs in other sports, these guys -> Bolt, Phelps, Maradona, MJ) yada yada, impossible to justify this table below.

 

Man of the series (tests) LINK, 5 MOS in 74 series, btw 1 of them was against 2007 Bangladesh. @zen @Real McCoy Sehwag has as many MOS in around half the number of series, and none against minnows. 

 

In ODIs possibly underrated, overrated a lot in tests and we know which is the daddy format. 

 

Not in the GOAT race. Nothing against him, I fully accept that he is top tier ATG and an important figure of our sport (and not just on-field) but won't overhype him calling him God, GOAT etc, just foolish, emotional talk IMO. 

 

I don't even see how he can start in an AT test XI. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Gollum

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, zen said:

We could but most of the guys are not overrated - some are as good, some are better than Tendulkar

Yup we wouldn't even have this discussion if not for the crazy overhyping. Sachinstas have even made a temple for him in  Bihar...wonder who the asuras are.....McGrath, Donald, Murali, Anderson or his fav Cronje?

[Jimmy Cliff]

39 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Forget the part that Sachin was a choker, or that he didn't have monster series, or that for majority of his career he never distinguished himself from other top bats (like GOATs in other sports, these guys Bolt, Phelps, Maradona, MJ) yada yada, impossible to justify this table below.

 

Man of the series (tests) LINK, 5 MOS in 74 series, btw 1 of them was against 2007 Bangladesh

 

In ODIs possibly underrated, overrated a lot in tests and we know which is the daddy format. 

 

Nowhere near the GOAT race. Nothing against him, accept that he is top tier ATG and an important figure of our sport (and not just on-field) but don't overhype him calling him God, GOAT etc, just foolish, emotional talk IMO. 

 

I don't even see how he can start in an AT test XI. 

 

People come up with these arbitrary stats as some sort of Gotcha! moments for SRT but suddenly go quiet when asked to apply the same criteria to other great bats. So for instance this MOTS record applies for Sachin but doesn't apply for Lara who has just 3 MOTS  (compared to 7 for Chanders) with zero MOTS in a winning cause. Same applies to the 4th innings stats that mean something when it comes to SRT but doesn't when it comes to Lara and Sehwag.

 

On the similar lines, stats involving x/y/z bowlers matter for SRT but Gavaskar getting out-batted by tailenders against the likes of Lilllee and his phateechar record against the WIPQ doesn't. So on and so forth. Amongst post war batsmen, one can find similar chinks in the records for almost all of them. Just because the usual suspects chose to ignore them for other bats and emphasize them for SRT doesn't mean the other batsmen are automatically better. In their urge to counter the infamous SRT fanatics who name call other great batsmen, the SRT haters have become just as demented .