The problem with Dravid criticism on ICF

[Chakdephatte]

Is that fans don't understand cricket, nor they try to. All they can do is - complain.

 

Judge him, but not by the type of players he likes. No one judges Dhoni for the type of players he liked, slow pacers, old experienced ones, accumulators. But he, as a captain, will always be judged by shrewd tactics and not any of this.

 

Can't one just talk the structural changes he is making in the team?

Edited July 21, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[Chakdephatte]

Most of Dravid criticism here is plain hypocrisy. You guys always complained why seniors are stat-padding, why newer faces are not getting chances. Now that Ishan, Ruturaj, Hooda are getting chances, you are still crying.

 

You always complained about useless bilaterals, now you see us making four chances in a match on English soil when we had a chance to whitewash them. Dravid is someone who doesn't care about these milestones and focuses on bigger picture (sometimes, it get over the top like with Sachin 194* case).

 

Indians don't believe in backups, hence so much crying over a non-issue. A certain Axar is playing because, at some point, Jadeja needs to go and replaced by someone. It's better to start grooming someone now than later. If Axar fails for two series in unfavorable conditions, what's the criticism.

 

Clear communication is a welcome change for Indian cricket. Ishan Kishan tells he is told that he will be a backup only, it means they are not keeping anyone in the dark. All of Umran, Hooda, Avesh know where they belong, it's only idiots not seeing the bigger picture who complain after one sits out for a match.

 

Also, what is this player X is not playing nonsense? It's either he doesn't deserve to or player Y is better. Literally no one hyped Hooda after his IPL performance. In fact, they were asking how he was ahead ahead of Samson. Now that he scored in one match, you hyped him to moon.

 

Judge him, but not by the type of players he likes.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[BacktoCricaddict]

The "form" vs "permanent class" issue is such a delicate balance. But it is expected that people like Dravid, who have played and managed cricket at the highest level, have it figured out. 

 

If people were calling for VK to be replaced by Hooda or whoever else 2 years ago, it would've been silly.  But today, you cannot apply the "class-is-permanent" parameter and have the guy use the Indian team as a way to fight his way out of his slump. 

 

One expects that Dravid can accept that and explain it to VK, so younger in-form players like Hooda can get a consistent run and develop into class players. If these newbies are always just placeholders, they will never really make it. I think that's what the angst is all about.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[maniac]

Dravid is the perfect example that you need different skills to run a big corporate vs being the school principal.

 

Now let’s discuss the good aspects of RD. Calm, patient, educated, articulate and disciplined along with his own credibility. Works to keep u-19 boys in check.

 

negative aspects- lack of innovation, aggression, out of the box thinking, being proactive rather than reactive, confirming  to the status quo etc, doesn’t work when running the big leagues which is the Indian cricket team.

 

Thats why he seems out of depth.

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

The "form" vs "permanent class" issue is such a delicate balance. But it is expected that people like Dravid, who have played and managed cricket at the highest level, have it figured out. 

 

If people were calling for VK to be replaced by Hooda or whoever else 2 years ago, it would've been silly.  But today, you cannot apply the "class-is-permanent" parameter and have the guy use the Indian team as a way to fight his way out of his slump. 

 

One expects that Dravid can accept that and explain it to VK, so younger in-form players like Hooda can get a consistent run and develop into class players. If these newbies are always just placeholders, they will never really make it. I think that's what the angst is all about.

 

As expected. A coach shouldn't be judged by whom he plays. He is judged by how firm is he on his opinions. Dravid is doing what everyone wanted Shastri to do and still getting criticized for doing so. In West Indies series earlier, Washi, Hooda, Sky were tried. Now, Gill, Samson, etc. will play in next two series. Also impressive how we did not use Thakur against England even when available. We are getting quite aggressive in both bowling and batting.

 

And yes, Hooda replacing Kohli is silly. Hooda can bat anywhere 4-7, Kohli is strictly top 3. Sky is similar to Hooda, Iyer too limited. Pant and KL can replace him, but they are in middle order. Only guy who can replace, and do what Kohli did is- Gill. And he is in the team for Windies.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[Chakdephatte]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:05 PM, maniac said:

Negative aspects- lack of innovation, aggression, out of box thinking 

 

LOOOL! That's what I though before the West Indies series earlier this year. But in second ODI of the series, when opener got injured and everyone thought Rahul is gonna open, he made Pant open instead making it clear he doesn't want accumulators batting together. In the same series, he sent Washington (at 6) to bat with Sky one match, and Hooda (at 6) to partner Iyer. Wonder why?

 

 

(Ignore the word T20s here)

See the over number, not batting position. Add to the fact that Sky struggles against SLA, so partner him with left-hander, but Iyer doesn't, so send Hooda, who is actual no.6. That's called innovation. That's called out of box thinking.

 

Lacks aggression -

So playing going with three hit the deck bowlers who cannot bat leaving out Thakur is not aggressive. What nonsense?

 

Is proactive than being reactive-

How is this bad?

 

Now reply if you really have a point to prove me wrong and don't run away.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[Ankit_sharma03]

I joined ICF when duncan was coach, since then

 

ICF be like

Duncan - Cardboard coach

Shastri- bewda

Dravid - useless 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

till now this TM has been excellent, this all R*** R*** starts after one defeat. 1 defeat is all it takes, matalb ek match harna bhi paap hai

At the end captain plays the team on field, coach cant do much . 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

They cant keep everyone happy- they have backed iyer whom im not a fan but they have a thought process and they are backing it unlike last TM . 

They have done so many things right in such small time, finally their seems to be structure in LOI planning 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[Chakdephatte]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

They cant keep everyone happy- they have backed whom im not a fan but they have a thought process and they are backing it unlike last TM . 

They have done so many things right in such small time, finally their seems to be structure in LOI planning 

 

Exactly, just back the right player. Doesn't matter old, young, anchor, mindless. When Kohli decided to bat at no. 4, he quit after two failures. That's what's wrong.

 

One wants to drop Kohli, drop him, but make sure the guy replacing gets 50 matches in a row without being questioned. Dravid is that level determined.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Good things that this TM has done till now

 

• Stability and good dressing environment, players are being backed properly 
• top 3 have started showing more intent in t20i , succeed or not is different but they are going for it
• ODI bowling lineup is now being targeted toward wkt taking bowlers 
• Selection of DK and being used at right role 
• Pant opening in t20 
• Selection of many young players- rutu, hooda, umran, arshdeep, harshal 
• selections now considers roles which creates a structure in side 
• return of bhuvi and kuldeep (kuldeep has hugely credited rohit for backing him through out bad phase)
• Bumrah lengths this ODI series seemed far improved 
• They have been marking every players backup and selections arent random anymore 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[BacktoCricaddict]

31 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

As expected. All I am saying is Dravid cannot be judged on this alone. There are better ways to judge. Dravid is doing what everyone wanted Shastri to do and still getting criticized for doing so. In West Indies series earlier, Washi, Hooda, Sky were tried. Now, Gill, Samson, etc. will play in next two series. Also impressive how we did not use Thakur against England even when available. We are getting quite aggressive in both bowling and batting.

 

And yes, Hooda replacing Kohli is silly. Hooda can bat anywhere 4-7, Kohli is strictly top 3. Sky is similar to Hooda, Iyer too limited. Pant and KL can replace him, but they are in middle order. Only guy who can replace, and do what Kohli did is- Gill. And he is in the team for Windies.

All fair points. Just one quibble though.  Just for T20Is, Hooda could be a viable option in the top order.  His T20I successes have come in the top order. Yes, two of them were against Ireland, but he followed it up with a 33 (17) against Eng in the first T20. Then VK returned and, as expected, stunk it up. There are obviously things that RD/RGS are doing right. Just like there are things that RJS/VK did right when they were in charge. But it is frustrating to see newbies who contribute get the shaft right afterwards to accommodate senior players. Just because folks acknowledge this, it doesn't make them insane or anything.

[Chakdephatte]

4 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

All fair points. Just one quibble though.  Just for T20Is, Hooda could be a viable option in the top order.  His T20I successes have come in the top order. Yes, two of them were against Ireland, but he followed it up with a 33 (17) against Eng in the first T20. Then VK returned and, as expected, stunk it up. There are obviously things that RD/RGS are doing right. Just like there are things that RJS/VK did right when they were in charge. But it is frustrating to see newbies who contribute get the shaft right afterwards to accommodate senior players. Just because folks acknowledge this, it doesn't make them insane or anything.

 

Ok, sorry. I didn't think of T20s at all. Yes, Hooda can be no.3. But I guess, SKY is ahead. So, Ro-KL-SKY-Pant-Hardik-DK-Jadeja, so again, no chance and nothing to ponder upon.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[coffee_rules]

We don’t know what’s transpired between coach and player to criticize Dravid that he hasn’t talked to Kohli about his form. The Indian coaching manual has always been that senior players when they comeback, the replacement gets replaced, even if that player has scored a 300. So KL gets his spot back or Kohli or Rohit. When Dhawan was dropped from T20, Dravid did say that he had talked to him. Innovation, thinking out of the box is all perceptions. Nobody expected Avesh to be persisted and he is still getting picked over others. Perhaps pace bowling and fielding has regressed in his short tenure so far

Edited July 19, 2022 by coffee_rules

[Jay]

10 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

I joined ICF when duncan was coach, since then

 

ICF be like

Duncan - Cardboard coach

Shastri- bewda

Dravid - useless 

 

 

Shastri was a good coach. Kohli was a **** captain. **** batsman since 2020.

[Jay]

10 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Good things that this TM has done till now

 

• Stability and good dressing environment, players are being backed properly 
• top 3 have started showing more intent in t20i , succeed or not is different but they are going for it
• ODI bowling lineup is now being targeted toward wkt taking bowlers 
• Selection of DK and being used at right role 
• Pant opening in t20 
• Selection of many young players- rutu, hooda, umran, arshdeep, harshal 
• selections now considers roles which creates a structure in side 
• return of bhuvi and kuldeep (kuldeep has hugely credited rohit for backing him through out bad phase)
• Bumrah lengths this ODI series seemed far improved 
• They have been marking every players backup and selections arent random anymore 

We have definitely improved alot in LOI. We are looking hostile and dangerous in LOI. 

But test has regressed due to persistence with old guard. Probably giving them chances I guess to make a comeback and show that management will back players irrespective of form. 

 

I hope we can address this new 4th innings bowling which seems pervasive amongst most top sides these days. 4th innings chasing is becoming easier. Pitches after roller effects are remaining flat. 

[Vilander]

@Chakdephatte

 

what is dravidball ?

 

Britmedia or Brendan Mac 's lousy branding of a non existent ' brand' of cricket which they want to claim was unique and invented by Brendan Mac  -- and you want to 'Bollywood' it ? wtf is dravidball ?

 

 

PS : rhetorical question pls dont answer.

[Vilander]

13 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

coach cant do much

why is he there then ?

 

I dont believe this. Dravid is definitely influencing from behind. He needs to take responsibility for the teams recent predicament of loosing test games overseas after being in very strong positions.

[Vilander]

13 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

 

Is proactive than being reactive-

How is this bad?

 

 

 

I read his comment like this.

 

"lack of innovation, (lack of)aggression,(lack of) out of the box thinking,(not) being proactive rather than reactive, confirming to the status quo etc"

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

 

I read his comment like this.

 

"lack of innovation, (lack of)aggression,(lack of) out of the box thinking,(not) being proactive rather than reactive, confirming to the status quo etc"

 

And I adresssed everything -

14 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

LOOOL! That's what I though before the West Indies series earlier this year. But in second ODI of the series, when opener got injured and everyone thought Rahul is gonna open, he made Pant open instead making it clear he doesn't want accumulators batting together. In the same series, he sent Washington (at 6) to bat with Sky one match, and Hooda (at 6) to partner Iyer. Wonder why? Sky struggles against SLA, so partner him with left-hander, but Iyer can, so send Hooda, who is actual no. 6. That's called innovation. That's called out of box thinking.

 

Lacks aggression -

So playing going with three hit the deck bowlers who cannot bat leaving out Thakur is not aggressive. What nonsense?

 

Is proactive than being reactive-

How is this bad?

 

Now reply if you really have a point to prove me wrong and don't run away.

 

Selective reading is biggest problem on this platform. They bold one part one a reply and interpret it differently. In this example, you didn't even read my post.