The Garba debate

[coffee_rules]

It started with Bajrang Dal restricting Muslim youth from entering garba pandals with fake Ids. 
Even Many Hindus don’t know Garba is a religious event. They think it is dance party to night long music and naach-gaana. 
 

What happened in Gujarat village with public flogging is very bad. Hope the police cops are held responsible. Now it has ballooned into an international discourse on Hindutva etc Watch for NYT, WaPo jumping on this gravy train. Gujarat police are to blame. Lock-up ke andar maaro, bahar public mein nahin

 

 

 

[Gollum]

Public flogging is wrong, no matter who does it. In this case apparently the victims of the flogging had stoned some garba event, that detail will be missing in agenda pieces. Police should have taken over instead of mob justice. 

 

Sana Saeed is a Pakistani, Rana is Rana......they have an agenda. 

[Gollum]

Ultimately if you aren't welcome in some place don't go. Muslim men aren't welcome in garba in some states, but no such restriction in Durga Puja pandals. Hindus are welcome in dargahs (in fact a huge source of revenue) but not for Eid prayers in mosques. In fact there are certain localities where people from other community aren't welcome, it is what it is. 

[Gollum]

There seems to be more to the story. 

 

From  NDTV (On Camera, Public Flogging By Cops After Stone-Throwing At Garba Event In Gujarat), it seems cops did the flogging, not public.

 

News agency PTI had reported that a mob of around 150 people threw stones at a garba event on premises of a temple last night; 43 were named in the case.

According to the First Information Report, or FIR, members from the Muslim community in the village objected to garba being organised near a mosque, which is located across the temple.

"Police detained 13 persons after the FIR was registered at Matar police station," Deputy Superintendent of Police VR Bajpai had told PTI. Police were deployed in large number at the village following the incident.

"The village sarpanch (head) had organised garba at a temple. A mob from the Muslim community tried to stop it from taking place," Mr Bajpai told reporters.

Earlier, Kheda superintendent of police Rajesh Gadhiya had said a group of people led by two Muslim men entered the Navratri Garba venue and "started causing trouble".

Edited October 5, 2022 by Gollum

[urbestfriend]

I dont see any problem with Muslim men participating in Garba as it is a celebration of Devis and I think we should be open for others to celebrate our gods and godesses. Only it should be allowed if Muslim women are also ready to participate in Garba with Muslim men..

[sandeep]

I don't think religious affiliation should be a criteria for admission to garba events, which are more social events than anything. However, I 'get' the rationale behind the discomfort.  As it is, regardless of religious affiliation, garba suffers from that element of creeps who are out there, not for garba, but for other reasons.  There should be "policing" of creepiness, not of religous background.

 

Yes, its hypocritical of muslims who profess to be religious to be participating in such events, but why the enforcement of muslim religous 'virtue' isn't the concern of hindus.  

 

As far as 'public flogging' etc goes - vigilante mob attempts at "justice" are always illegal and repugnant.  No matter how ugly the provocation.  

'

[ravishingravi]

Let's be clear about this. We are in a country where beheading are fair game for assumed insult to one's prophet. Privileged folks can afford to talk first principles. It's a jungle out there. Lowest law enforcement per capital in the world. Procedures and all mean nothing. 

[coffee_rules]

Garba is a the worship of the womb that encapsulates all of nature, while dandiya is done after the worship/pooja is done. But it is hard to push the religious event angle. If you play such songs and dance.

 

 

 

Idolatory is shirk and it's a sin, people who worship idols are Mushirk! jsn't it?

[sandeep]

32 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

Let's be clear about this. We are in a country where beheading are fair game for assumed insult to one's prophet. Privileged folks can afford to talk first principles. It's a jungle out there. Lowest law enforcement per capital in the world. Procedures and all mean nothing. 

whats your point other than to hurl sad little whataboutisms?  Are you proposing anything? Because it sure sounds like you are justifying vigilante ISIS style public flogging here.....

[Lone Wolf]

Genuine question..  Always thought Garba is associated with Gujjus or does it happens in other states/areas too? 

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Genuine question..  Always thought Garba is associated with Gujjus or does it happens in other states/areas too? 

 

Huge deal in Bombay which has a big chunk of gujjus, but Garba in Bombay are not limited to gujjus.

[coffee_rules]

17 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Genuine question..  Always thought Garba is associated with Gujjus or does it happens in other states/areas too? 

There are similar cultural events in other communities, but Garba and Dandiya are solely from Gujjuland and Gujju communities across the world. Never went to one in India (Bengaluru), but here in NJ, it is a big deal. People go shopping for designer wear solely to wear in Garba events. Some people import it from India as the ones here are outdated. 

[ravishingravi]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

whats your point other than to hurl sad little whataboutisms?  Are you proposing anything? Because it sure sounds like you are justifying vigilante ISIS style public flogging here.....

 

There was no whataboutism, its just context.  The law and order and judicial system is not adept to turnover cases and provide justice. It will take decades for the clogged system to improve. But crimes won't stop in the meanwhile. The current mix is better than last decade. Cops are more accountable because of social media. At the same time, people are becoming more vigilant. First world order will not be India. Not in several decades. And I am reconciled with that as long as there is incremental improvement.

 

My wishlist is irrelevant. The ground realities of these people they understand best. In small villlages such as these, this kind of flogging is just passe. They have their own corrective process. They know what they are dealing with. Sometimes we forget that we are from a country where whatsapp or facebook messages can cause riots. Its good to talk about rights and process, but jungle has its own laws and large parts of India are wild jungles. And people there don't seem to mind it.

[Vilander]

If they threw stones then they should be legally prosecuted not flogged.

[EnterTheVoid]

Don't believe in mob justice or public flogging.

 

We are not Pakistan, ISIS or the Taliban.

[Mariyam]

13 hours ago, Gollum said:

Public flogging is wrong, no matter who does it. In this case apparently the victims of the flogging had stoned some garba event, that detail will be missing in agenda pieces. Police should have taken over instead of mob justice. 

 

Sana Saeed is a Pakistani, Rana is Rana......they have an agenda. 

If you were to look at the video closely, it seems it is the police who were administering the flogging.

 

The person carrying out the flogging had a gun in a holster. And there were many uniformed police watching the proceedings.

[mishra]

2 hours ago, Mariyam said:

If you were to look at the video closely, it seems it is the police who were administering the flogging.

 

The person carrying out the flogging had a gun in a holster. And there were many uniformed police watching the proceedings.

That means administration acted and police was called to. Its clear case of eave teasing and attempted Love Jihad or worse trap Hindu Girls as sex objects.

 

For those who havent been to Garbhas and what happens and why Hindus are against it, let me put it very clearly and without being politically correct.

 

Its a Gujrati tradition.

Location is considered as temple and goddess worship happens in evening by kids by doing Diya and then again happens before switching to Dandiya.

 

While its a temple, it also has dual use. Girls are dressed beatifully, Boys are also dressed to impress (impress is key) and its a location and opportunity where young boys and girls do fall in love and pairs are formed for life. This secondary purpose is one of key reasons why 90% of kids in late teens or people in early twenties vist them. Atleast when I was young, whole of my group had that second purpose in my mind. Some got married to a girl they met in one of these locations.

 

Now my question is? What was intention of these Muslim youths other then eave teasing or Love Jihad because As far as I know, they atleast arent idol worshipper so worship angle is gone.  Its not a family event that family of these Muslim youths have been invited into house of some Hindu man on a Puja. And finally, So even if it is for finding Love, Marriage with idol worshipper is not permitted. They very clearly know loving a idol worshipper is NOT permitted. SO either they see these Hindu girls as a object of Sex or convert them to Islam.

 

Also @op its very easy to take moral high ground if someones elses sister daughter mother is eave teased, but if its your own, you will react with suitable protective action  or call Police. Thats excatly what happened.

[sandeep]

So according to the Hindu newspaper which is clearly not "right wing", these guys were throwing stones and trying to disrupt the garba event because supposedly according to their judgement it was held too close to a mosque.  

 

So the angle of "love jihad" or creeping on women isn't really relavant to this specific story.  

 

Regardless, the point stands that physical punishment is illegal under Indian law.  And the police do not have the authority to "inflict punishment'.  They can arrest and file the case.  

 

Today, some of you feel like the people in question "got what they deserved".  But the reality is that police work in India is systemically flawed and inaccurate.  Tomorrow, somebody "undeserving" could very easily be at the receiving end of such treatment.   As a society we really do not want to "normalize" this sort of violence.  Regardless of context.  This is not a matter of "first world principles" or such nonsense.  Its a simple thing whether we want to live in some 19th century feudal setup or a 'normal' state governed by laws.  

 

Edit: Link to story - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/police-publicly-flog-men-who-disturb-navratri-garba-event-in-gujarat/article65971486.ece

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by sandeep

[sandeep]

14 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

. Its good to talk about rights and process, but jungle has its own laws and large parts of India are wild jungles. And people there don't seem to mind it.

 

That's the kind of ignorant garbage that if said by a white person, would be rightly vilified as racist.  

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, mishra said:

That means administration acted and police was called to. Its clear case of eave teasing and attempted Love Jihad or worse trap Hindu Girls as sex objects.

 

For those who havent been to Garbhas and what happens and why Hindus are against it, let me put it very clearly and without being politically correct.

 

Its a Gujrati tradition.

Location is considered as temple and goddess worship happens in evening by kids by doing Diya and then again happens before switching to Dandiya.

 

While its a temple, it also has dual use. Girls are dressed beatifully, Boys are also dressed to impress (impress is key) and its a location and opportunity where young boys and girls do fall in love and pairs are formed for life. This secondary purpose is one of key reasons why 90% of kids in late teens or people in early twenties vist them. Atleast when I was young, whole of my group had that second purpose in my mind. Some got married to a girl they met in one of these locations.

 

Now my question is? What was intention of these Muslim youths other then eave teasing or Love Jihad because As far as I know, they atleast arent idol worshipper so worship angle is gone.  Its not a family event that family of these Muslim youths have been invited into house of some Hindu man on a Puja. And finally, So even if it is for finding Love, Marriage with idol worshipper is not permitted. They very clearly know loving a idol worshipper is NOT permitted. SO either they see these Hindu girls as a object of Sex or convert them to Islam.

 

Also @op its very easy to take moral high ground if someones elses sister daughter mother is eave teased, but if its your own, you will react with suitable protective action  or call Police. Thats excatly what happened.

I am not judging the people who complained. But against any public flogging by police. Usually they get thrashed in jail cells berehami se pita jata hain