Hatsoff to Jadeja and Ashwin - Golden combination for Indian test cricket

[coffee_rules]

Jadeja - 7

Ashwin - 3

Edited February 19, 2023 by coffee_rules

[zen]

People, in general, have little understanding of how to evaluate stats here:

 

Jadeja, for e.g., usually only plays selective matches abroad where conditions favor him. On the other hand bowlers like Kumble, played almost all games for India everywhere. 
 

Take India v Aus at Adelaide - there is no Jadeja in the 11 …  But then he would come back and play in Sydney in that test. Similarly, Ashwin who gets rotated but he has played relatively more. 
 

Despite usually only playing when conditions are relatively favourable, these guys have mediocre averages. 
 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by zen

[Bigg Brother]

27 minutes ago, zen said:

People, in general, have little understanding of stats here:

 

Jadeja, for e.g., usually only plays selective matches abroad where conditions favor him. On the other hand bowlers like Kumble, played almost all games for India everywhere. 
 

Take India v Aus at Adelaide - there is no Jadeja in the 11 …  But then he would come back and play in Sydney in that test. Similarly, Ashwin who gets rotated but he has played relatively more. 
 

Despite usually only playing when conditions are relatively favourable, these guys have mediocre averages. 
 

 

Jaddu missed Adelaide test due to dodgy hamstring (not because it was pink ball and seamer friendly) and got back and played in MCG test (Bouncy pitch according to you) before Sydney (Hmm,turning track?) , also scored 57 and took 3 wickets at MCG. But yeah I know why you did that..  

 

It is not selective. They are good enough to create dilemma with Jaddu's batting on rise (Unlike some Phony AR) and Ashwin being the best off spinner in the world..

[zen]

1 hour ago, Bigg Brother said:

Jaddu missed Adelaide test due to dodgy hamstring (not because it was pink ball and seamer friendly) and got back and played in MCG test (Bouncy pitch according to you) before Sydney (Hmm,turning track?) , also scored 57 and took 3 wickets at MCG. But yeah I know why you did that..  

 

It is not selective. They are good enough to create dilemma with Jaddu's batting on rise (Unlike some Phony AR) and Ashwin being the best off spinner in the world..

Nope -  looking at Jadeja’s number of games since his debut and the # of games that India played abroad (SENA) tells the story (relative to other such bowlers).  

 

On batting on the rise, a cricketer can hit a purple patch and/or develop his game after playing international cricket for so long (Does his “developed” batting makes him good enough to open the batting in SENA?).
 

No one said he has not developed his batting on a relative scale. We are talking about stats here (the story they don’t tell). 
 

 

PS on your unrelated comment on Adelaide, I am referring to 2018 series (used as an e.g.). The point is about not being a regular abroad relatively speaking (not missed x due to y, which would also show not being a regular). 

Edited February 19, 2023 by zen

[neel roy]

Indias Home record since KP and Cook burst Indias balloon and hastened the end of careers of Sachin, Gambhir and Harbhajan..

Beat AUS (4-0)
Beat WI (2-0)
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat NZ (3-0)
Beat ENG (4-0)
Beat BAN (1-0)
Beat AUS (2-1)
Beat SL (1-0)
Beat AFG (1-0)
Beat WI (2-0) : Should have been 3-0. Rain saved them in one match if I remember 
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat BAN (2-0)
Beat ENG (3-1)
Beat NZ (1-0) : should have been 2-0. 10th wicket partnership  saved them
Beat SL (2-0)
Leading AUS (2-0)

Edited February 19, 2023 by neel roy

[vvvslaxman]

48 minutes ago, neel roy said:

Indias Home record since KP and Cook burst Indias balloon and hastened the end of careers of Sachin, Gambhir and Harbhajan..

Beat AUS (4-0)
Beat WI (2-0)
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat NZ (3-0)
Beat ENG (4-0)
Beat BAN (1-0)
Beat AUS (2-1)
Beat SL (1-0)
Beat AFG (1-0)
Beat WI (2-0) : Should have been 3-0. Rain saved them in one match if I remember 
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat BAN (2-0)
Beat ENG (3-1)
Beat NZ (1-0) : should have been 2-0. 10th wicket partnership  saved them
Beat SL (2-0)
Leading AUS (2-0)

 

Exactly 10 years back our streak started

 

Since then

 

Ashwin 44 tests 272 wickets 19.56 avge 44.5 SR

Jadeja 37 tests  186 wickets  19.50 avge 50.8 SR

Umesh  25 tests 80 wickets 24.71 avge 48.1 SR

Shami  20 tests 74 wickets 20.63 avge 40.6 SR

Ishant  24 tests  49 wickets 30.22 avge 67.1 SR

AR patel 8 tests 40 wickets 13.87 avge 36.5 SR

 

Jadeja 1541 runs 42.80 avge

Ashwin  1249 runs 24.98 avge

 

Jadeja 23 catches

Ashwin 18 catches

[coffee_rules]

3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Exactly 10 years back our streak started

 

Since then

 

Ashwin 44 tests 272 wickets 19.56 avge 44.5 SR

Jadeja 37 tests  186 wickets  19.50 avge 50.8 SR

Umesh  25 tests 80 wickets 24.71 avge 48.1 SR

Shami  20 tests 74 wickets 20.63 avge 40.6 SR

Ishant  24 tests  49 wickets 30.22 avge 67.1 SR

AR patel 8 tests 40 wickets 13.87 avge 36.5 SR

 

Jadeja 1541 runs 42.80 avge

Ashwin  1249 runs 24.98 avge

 

Jadeja 23 catches

Ashwin 18 catches

Pretty impressive SR for Shami. Shami in last 25 matches average is 23. BUmrah, Shami, Siraj, and these two spinners- pretty  good bowling attack. Home dominance with only a few top order batsman raising hand randomly 

[StraightDrive26]

Ashwin and Jadeja haven't played enough overseas to compare with Murali or Warne. For example Ashwin has had 4 tours to Australia,

2011/12 (His first series),

2014/15 - Absolute roads and except for the Adelaide pitch where he was dropped for Karn Sharma. Nathan Lyon despite picking up loads of wickets in Adelaide averaged 40 in that series. 

2018/19 - Played just one Test and picked up 6 wickets in the win at 25

2020/21 - Played 3 Tests where he averaged 28

 

His only poor performance is in SA which I agree. A country where most of the finger spinners struggle. Murali wasn't a finger spinner. 

Ashwin Averages 28 in England as well

Has played only 1 Test in NZ at an average of 33.

 

So with that sort of record, you cannot blame Ashwin. He hardly gets to play a full series overseas and because of Jadeja's batting he rightfully gets the nod ahead.

 

So average of 42 in Aus, (25 & 28 in the last 2 series)

Average of 50 in SA

Average of 28 in England

Average of 21 in WI

Average of 33 in NZ (Just one Test)

 

Record for Jadeja

Average of 21 in Australoa

Average of 60 in NZ (3 Tests)

Average of 25 in SA (1 Test)

Average of 46 in Eng (11 Test)

 

The above record is similar for almost all the spin bowlers in Modern era. Don't think any bowler has 100% great record in All countries in the world. Ashwin & Jadeja give India not only control with the ball but also score some important runs overseas. 

 

Murali averaged 75 in Australia, 45 in India

Warne Averaged 44 in India, 40 in WI

Saqlain Averaged 45 in SA, 34 in Aus, 43 in WI

Swann averaged 52 in Aus, 32 in SA

 

So every spinner has bogey countries but the above were the lone spinners and played lot more in those countries compared to Ashwing & Jadeja who had to compete with themselves at most times and ended play half of what they should have each. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by StraightDrive26

[SRT100]

While we give a lot of crap to uncles in the Indian Cricket team, the bottom line is that if they perform, we all want them to remain in the team, as they rightly should.

There is no reason why these two cant continue for a few more years. Ash is 34, Jaddu is 36.

 

However, India MUST groom the next generation.

When we play "softer" teams, India must rotate and rest Ash and Jaddu out of the team.

[SRT100]

We know their bowling in the subcontinent, but its their batting which gives India so much power to win games.

They are both batting so well at the moment, that Ash at 3 and Jaddu at 4, as stupid and idiotic that it sounds, would actually make India a stronger team.

Thats a shot of just how bad, Pujara and Kohli have been.

[cowboysfan]

6 hours ago, neel roy said:

Indias Home record since KP and Cook burst Indias balloon and hastened the end of careers of Sachin, Gambhir and Harbhajan..

Beat AUS (4-0)
Beat WI (2-0)
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat NZ (3-0)
Beat ENG (4-0)
Beat BAN (1-0)
Beat AUS (2-1)
Beat SL (1-0)
Beat AFG (1-0)
Beat WI (2-0) : Should have been 3-0. Rain saved them in one match if I remember 
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat BAN (2-0)
Beat ENG (3-1)
Beat NZ (1-0) : should have been 2-0. 10th wicket partnership  saved them
Beat SL (2-0)
Leading AUS (2-0)

 

its even more impressive considering we keep losing the toss against the aussies and england.

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, SRT100 said:

We know their bowling in the subcontinent, but its their batting which gives India so much power to win games.

They are both batting so well at the moment, that Ash at 3 and Jaddu at 4, as stupid and idiotic that it sounds, would actually make India a stronger team.

Thats a shot of just how bad, Pujara and Kohli have been.

 

Lyon said "India doesn't have good tail. They just have a long top order".   Pant/Jadeja/Axar/Ashwin - what a powerful mentally strong combo in these conditions down the order.

[coffee_rules]

6 hours ago, neel roy said:

Indias Home record since KP and Cook burst Indias balloon and hastened the end of careers of Sachin, Gambhir and Harbhajan..

Beat AUS (4-0)
Beat WI (2-0)
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat NZ (3-0)
Beat ENG (4-0)
Beat BAN (1-0)
Beat AUS (2-1)
Beat SL (1-0)
Beat AFG (1-0)
Beat WI (2-0) : Should have been 3-0. Rain saved them in one match if I remember 
Beat SA (3-0)
Beat BAN (2-0)
Beat ENG (3-1)
Beat NZ (1-0) : should have been 2-0. 10th wicket partnership  saved them
Beat SL (2-0)
Leading AUS (2-0)

Everybody was expecting India to lose a home series after 10 years. Aus disappointed with their approach batting spin. This is turning out like 2013 series. They gave serious  fight in 2017. Smith was too good then

[Trichromatic]

1-0 v SL is best result for a visiting team in last 10 years.

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, StraightDrive26 said:

Ashwin and Jadeja haven't played enough overseas to compare with Murali or Warne. For example Ashwin has had 4 tours to Australia,

2011/12 (His first series),

2014/15 - Absolute roads and except for the Adelaide pitch where he was dropped for Karn Sharma. Nathan Lyon despite picking up loads of wickets in Adelaide averaged 40 in that series. 

2018/19 - Played just one Test and picked up 6 wickets in the win at 25

2020/21 - Played 3 Tests where he averaged 28

 

His only poor performance is in SA which I agree. A country where most of the finger spinners struggle. Murali wasn't a finger spinner. 

Ashwin Averages 28 in England as well

Has played only 1 Test in NZ at an average of 33.

 

So with that sort of record, you cannot blame Ashwin. He hardly gets to play a full series overseas and because of Jadeja's batting he rightfully gets the nod ahead.

 

So average of 42 in Aus, (25 & 28 in the last 2 series)

Average of 50 in SA

Average of 28 in England

Average of 21 in WI

Average of 33 in NZ (Just one Test)

 

Record for Jadeja

Average of 21 in Australoa

Average of 60 in NZ (3 Tests)

Average of 25 in SA (1 Test)

Average of 46 in Eng (11 Test)

 

The above record is similar for almost all the spin bowlers in Modern era. Don't think any bowler has 100% great record in All countries in the world. Ashwin & Jadeja give India not only control with the ball but also score some important runs overseas. 

 

Murali averaged 75 in Australia, 45 in India

Warne Averaged 44 in India, 40 in WI

Saqlain Averaged 45 in SA, 34 in Aus, 43 in WI

Swann averaged 52 in Aus, 32 in SA

 

So every spinner has bogey countries but the above were the lone spinners and played lot more in those countries compared to Ashwing & Jadeja who had to compete with themselves at most times and ended play half of what they should have each. 

 

 

His lack of 5-fers in these countries will bring questions to his bowling legacy.

 

It's not that he didn't have opportunities. He got conditions and situations going for him and still missed out.

[Trichromatic]

8 hours ago, zen said:

People, in general, have little understanding of how to evaluate stats here:

 

Jadeja, for e.g., usually only plays selective matches abroad where conditions favor him. On the other hand bowlers like Kumble, played almost all games for India everywhere. 
 

Take India v Aus at Adelaide - there is no Jadeja in the 11 …  But then he would come back and play in Sydney in that test. Similarly, Ashwin who gets rotated but he has played relatively more. 
 

Despite usually only playing when conditions are relatively favourable, these guys have mediocre averages. 
 

 

 

I see you brought both names in conditions favorable abroad, who plays when conditions are not favorable overseas? I guess Axar Patel.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Everybody was expecting India to lose a home series after 10 years. Aus disappointed with their approach batting spin. This is turning out like 2013 series. They gave serious  fight in 2017. Smith was too good then

they really played like headless chickens in this test. I was sure we would lose, and that could have led to more losses.

 

although we put together a win, I am still pissed off by the top and middle order (incl. iyer)

[Gollum]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

1-0 v SL is best result for a visiting team in last 10 years.

Even there 1st test they got saved by almost 3 days of rain.

 

And smog cost us 30-40 overs in Delhi...any way Delhi test should have been called off due to smog, Shami was vomiting in his run up. Disgraceful scheduling that.

[Vijy]

52 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Even there 1st test they got saved by almost 3 days of rain.

 

And smog cost us 30-40 overs in Delhi...any way Delhi test should have been called off due to smog, Shami was vomiting in his run up. Disgraceful scheduling that.

terrible. our own board is one of our biggest "enemies"

[Trichromatic]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

Even there 1st test they got saved by almost 3 days of rain.

 

And smog cost us 30-40 overs in Delhi...any way Delhi test should have been called off due to smog, Shami was vomiting in his run up. Disgraceful scheduling that.

 

Still SL did far better than many other visiting teams.