Reopening the debate on best chasers in ODIs

[Jimmy Cliff]

4 hours ago, jusarrived said:

..if not for GG , VK and Dhoni he would have ended his 2 decade looong career with his team having achived nothing in the period .

If not for SRT, these guys would've watched the 2011 WC final on TV.

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Vk1 said:

I would like to look it differently, pick the guy who is head and shoulders above the best of the times, Bradman for tests  and King Viv for odis. It's mind boggling to know that Viv had a strikerate of 90s  and a very high average of 47. 

 

The super talented player performing head and shoulders above the other good players is a feature of the " amateur era ".  The more professional a sport or a format becomes, the quality of the good and the average player becomes much higher through analysis, research and professional training.  While the natural flair of the super talented guy is partially curtailed by planning by the coaches.

 

It was the case with Bradman in tests and Richards in ODIs.  Although Richards played in an era of sufficiently  professional test setup, ODIs were at a nascent stage and Richards, with his natural ODI flair, shone the brightest by a huge margin.

 

If Tendulkar and Ponting had played test matches in the 1930s .... Tendulkar would perhaps have averaged 80+ in tests and Ponting not more than 60. The natural flair of Tendulkar would have made him head and shoulders above the rest.

Edited September 23, 2017 by express bowling

[Texan]

Kohli vs Sachin in ODI chases is not even a comparison. Really. How many games did Sachin win with an unbeaten knock in ODIs?

 

Sachin played very typical innings where he blazed away at the start, knocked singles in the middle, slowed down considerably after 80, resumed attack after 100 and then got out playing a tired shot with still 50-70 runs to make. Just look at the number of times Kohli has stayed unbeaten in tough chases. He beats any player in chases hands down. 

[Nonbeliever]

5 hours ago, Texan said:

Kohli vs Sachin in ODI chases is not even a comparison. Really. How many games did Sachin win with an unbeaten knock in ODIs?

 

Sachin played very typical innings where he blazed away at the start, knocked singles in the middle, slowed down considerably after 80, resumed attack after 100 and then got out playing a tired shot with still 50-70 runs to make. Just look at the number of times Kohli has stayed unbeaten in tough chases. He beats any player in chases hands down. 

Most of the matches Kohli has been supported well by top order batsman. In most of the cases u will find that we did not loose more than 3 4 wickets

Edited September 24, 2017 by Nonbeliever

[Nonbeliever]

6 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

The super talented player performing head and shoulders above the other good players is a feature of the " amateur era ".  The more professional a sport or a format becomes, the quality of the good and the average player becomes much higher through analysis, research and professional training.  While the natural flair of the super talented guy is partially curtailed by planning by the coaches.

 

It was the case with Bradman in tests and Richards in ODIs.  Although Richards played in an era of sufficiently  professional test setup, ODIs were at a nascent stage and Richards, with his natural ODI flair, shone the brightest by a huge margin.

 

If Tendulkar and Ponting had played test matches in the 1930s .... Tendulkar would perhaps have averaged 80+ in tests and Ponting not more than 60. The natural flair of Tendulkar would have made him head and shoulders above the rest.

Was just checking stike rates of players in 70 80s.  Mohinder amarnath strike rate was 86 in test and 57 in odis. Gavaskar also had better stike rate in test.  Looks like they did not take odis seriously.  This thing needs a separate thread by the way.

[Gollum]

7 hours ago, Texan said:

Kohli vs Sachin in ODI chases is not even a comparison. Really. How many games did Sachin win with an unbeaten knock in ODIs?

 

Sachin played very typical innings where he blazed away at the start, knocked singles in the middle, slowed down considerably after 80, resumed attack after 100 and then got out playing a tired shot with still 50-70 runs to make. Just look at the number of times Kohli has stayed unbeaten in tough chases. He beats any player in chases hands down. 

The problem with Kohli is that his so called chasing masterclasses have all come on pattas, against weak bowling units and under no pressure whatsoever. His chasing stats are over rated because of context, just like Amla's ODI batting record. 

 

The moment there is something at stake, against good bowlers even on flat pitches he makes a complete fool out of himself. He was barely able to touch the ball in 2015 SF and 2017 CT F. 

[Rasgulla]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

The problem with Kohli is that his so called chasing masterclasses have all come on pattas, against weak bowling units and under no pressure whatsoever. His chasing stats are over rated because of context, just like Amla's ODI batting record. 

 

The moment there is something at stake, against good bowlers even on flat pitches he makes a complete fool out of himself. He was barely able to touch the ball in 2015 SF and 2017 CT F. 

And what magic did your sachin do in 2003 WC final and 2011 WC final? Once he sees Top class bowling he chokes atleast Virat scored in 2013 CT final on a tough pitch. 

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

If not for SRT, these guys would've watched the 2011 WC final on TV.

Na more because of Pakistani fielders 

[SK_IH]

recently watched that vid of a sharjah match aginst eng from 1997, the way sachin threw it away in the end  defines the god of cricket as a chaser,add to that 175 vs aus ,although it is a harsh addition as he single handedly(nearly) took ind to a win 

chase is how you react under pressure,sachin used to panic

[Anoop K]

On 9/24/2017 at 11:21 AM, Rasgulla said:

And what magic did your sachin do in 2003 WC final and 2011 WC final? Once he sees Top class bowling he chokes atleast Virat scored in 2013 CT final on a tough pitch. 

And what magic has kohl done in any of the finals or even in two WC he has played 

[putrevus]

The author of this article is a joke, he is trying desperately to show Sachin as some great chaser.Sachin vs Kohli in chasing is not even a debate.

Why does Sachin get all breaks from these jokers, if you break down like that the peaks of others player are far more superior to Sachin either in tests or odis.

Kohli needs a big time finals performance an odi tournament.Steven Smith scored 100 in WC 2015 finals even if you ask Steven Smith he will admit Kohli is far superior limited overs player than him.Kohli carried this team on his in last T20 world cups where he delivered in every knockout stage.He single handedly took India to 2014 finals .

 

[Nonbeliever]

33 minutes ago, putrevus said:

The author of this article is a joke, he is trying desperately to show Sachin as some great chaser.Sachin vs Kohli in chasing is not even a debate.

Why does Sachin get all breaks from these jokers, if you break down like that the peaks of others player are far more superior to Sachin either in tests or odis.

Kohli needs a big time finals performance an odi tournament.Steven Smith scored 100 in WC 2015 finals even if you ask Steven Smith he will admit Kohli is far superior limited overs player than him.Kohli carried this team on his in last T20 world cups where he delivered in every knockout stage.He single handedly took India to 2014 finals .

 

Who was the opener in Sachin era who finished more games than him.  This Aussie side or for that matter any side of today's era is not even half as good as their respective side before 2003 barring england and India

Even a player like amla has almost similar odi stats like Kohli.

If u say that cricket is same than half of today's batsman are better than Sachin.

 

[putrevus]

37 minutes ago, Nonbeliever said:

Who was the opener in Sachin era who finished more games than him.  This Aussie side or for that matter any side of today's era is not even half as good as their respective side before 2003 barring england and India

Even a player like amla has almost similar odi stats like Kohli.

If u say that cricket is same than half of today's batsman are better than Sachin.

 

We are talking about chasers and no one in right mind would put Amla or AB or any contemporaries of Kohli in same class of chasing as Kohli.

Kohli is not just best chaser now he is best chaser in history of cricket I don't care Viv Richards or any other player for that matter no one comes close to Kohli. No one needs to see stats to tell that he will have all the records for chases.Kohli would walk into any all time playing 11 just by virtue of his chasing records.-

Why do people throw stats at when supporting Sachin, chasing 190 and chasing 350 are not same. Opener can score a hundred chasing 190 or no 3 in Kohli case can also score 100 chasing 330 plus .Stats might say both scored 100 runs while chasing while anyone with common sense knows which innings was far more superior.

 

Where did Sachin exactly dominate or score runs against good team away from home in ODIs.So don't even try to give standard or team or bowlers. Sachin did not light up  any great bowling unit either.

Edited September 25, 2017 by putrevus

[Rasgulla]

1 hour ago, Anoop K said:

And what magic has kohl done in any of the finals or even in two WC he has played 

Only been 1 in Final and he did well forming a 83 runs partnership with Gambhir where he scored very import 35.. Didn't choke like sachin didHis both scores in 2 WCs doesn't even addup to 35 that virat scored in 1 Wc final 

[Shunya]

Since Kohli has first hand experience of playing with Dhoni n co, he is always inclined to or groomed in a team culture where finishing the game and getting a W at any cost is considered most important.

Sachin was a great batsman, a true master blaster, but unfortunately, we have moved on from nearly winning to winning long time back with other greats of the game connecting the dots and crossing the finish line. Kohli is a blend of all and hence is able to achieve so much. Its awesome that he plays for India.

[maniac]

I will have to go with Kohli...in my 27 years of watching cricket I have not seen a player planning a chase with such clinical

precision....greatest chaser ever no contest!!!

 

This is the kind of a debate where stats don't give you the real story.You have to be a little more subjective in debating this.

 

Take the mid 90s for example...teams were wary of having to bat first against Srilanka,because if they were caught on an off day with a sub par total say below 250 ......Jayasuriya and co would knock it off like a walk in the park...I mean they literally revolutionized ODI chasing. Obviously statsguru may not  pick up on it . As I said this is a very subjective topic.

 

Now let us take another example of a guy who is not mentioned  in the above list..infact I call it a glaring omission when talking about ODIs and chases. Michael Bevan...this guy had nerves of steel and was probably one of the best players when it came to shielding the tail...

 

He always ended up with scores that looked something like 55*,69*.47* etc .

 

Also while his ability in maneuvering a chase in a collapse was great,most times the rrr was still within reach and the score was not too steep.As I said earlier both arguments can be made about Bevan.

 

The list that talks about ODI chasing and does not include Bevan is a joke!

 

I would put Dhoni in the Bevan category as well as somoeone who is a very good chaser of modest targets(obviously average scores have   increased since Bevan's time) but nonetheless no denying that Dhoni belongs in the list too and has a lot of qualities that Bevan possessed.

 

Even though I still think Dhoni is way past his prime.

 

For some reason Hussey usually comes up in these debates(obviously not in this one) but apart from the Wt20 2010 semis ,I don't remember too many great Hussey chases but still that is clearly more memorable chases than say Saeed Anwar or AB who are mentioned above.

 

One more guy I feel  who is under rated when it comes to chasing in my opinion is Graeme Smith....from what I have seen when the going got tough Smith became a beast more often than not....usually in a India vs SA game whenever I felt India had the game in their hands,Smith was the guy I feared the most as someone who could change things...once again this is a subjective opinion.

 

Sachin and AB are obviously ATGs in the Ofi format...They have had some great innings batting 2nd no doubt(probably in AB's case)  but I always saw them as a bigger threat to the opposition when they were setting a target...Obviously  they have a huge body of work and if you filter on  2nd innings career stats,it may show impressive numbers but calling them as great chasers is as much of an exaggeration as calling them chokers.

 

which brings me to the next point  

 

I am sure Ponting and Viv have great stats batting 2nd too just like SRT and AB above as being ATG's and having a long successful career.

 

 How many times we have seen though their teams bowling attacks have knocked out the opposition team for a sub par total 9/10 times...and they come and finish the job in a hurry..Even though I haven't seen much of Viv's  career,sure that was a possibility given the bowling attack of his team possessed.  I have seen this plenty of times with Ponting and his team.

 

There is always a definite answer to who is the highest wicket taker or who is the highest run getter  in the world but who is the greatest bowler of the greatest batsman ever is obviously very subjective.

 

  

[Vilander]

sorry compare only whole periods of the career.  SRT was not as good as the others, dont contort every stat to make SRT look good. Its pathetic. lol

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Vilander

[Vilander]

lol if we consider win factor.

 

 

its Saeed Unwar above Virat who in turn is above Sachin...lol that is not going to sit well.. 

 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Vilander said:

sorry compare only whole periods of the career.  SRT was not as good as the others, dont contort every stat to make SRT look good. Its pathetic. lol

 

 

 

Hey...glad you have discovered this new sport called cricket...hope this is not a fad and you stick around as a cricket fan for a while...new fans are always welcome 

[Vilander]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Hey...glad you have discovered this new sport called cricket...hope this is not a fad and you stick around as a cricket fan for a while...new fans are always welcome 

lagi kya ?  dude the real stat says  1, Saeed 2, Virat 3, Sachin what can i do if thats not to your taste ?