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MechEng

Who was technically most sound out of Tendulkar, Dravid and Gavaskar?

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1 hour ago, MechEng said:

How different were they technically from each other?

 

Tendulkar is often quoted as the technically most perfect batsman, I never hear the same for Dravid and Gavaskar. How true is this claim about Tendulkar?

Technically Tendulkar is more copybook than the other two. He had all the shots in his repertoire. Gavaskar did not have the backfoot game that SRT had. Also his weakness just outside the off stump was more prominent than SRT. SRT was supposed to be a freak, but did not live up to his potential compared to other modern day batsman.

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2 hours ago, FischerTal said:

Is this even a question?

 

hands down midget was the perfect Textbook batsman.. if not for tennis elbow and the whole fixing saga that affected his mental game, he would have achieved far greater heights. 

I thought Dravid played swing/seam better than Tendulkar.

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Gavaskar

Aila

Dravid

 

you can’t have inferior technique, be an opener and average 50 in an era , where it is rare. Tendulkar might be on par, but was not tough mentally.  96 on a minefield against 2 spinners. Performance against pace quartet. People needed different set of skills to be successful in the 70s. Instead of batsmen who look like gladiators with broad heavy bats

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53 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Gavaskar

Aila

Dravid

 

you can’t have inferior technique, be an opener and average 50 in an era , where it is rare. Tendulkar might be on par, but was not tough mentally.  96 on a minefield against 2 spinners. Performance against pace quartet. People needed different set of skills to be successful in the 70s. Instead of batsmen who look like gladiators with broad heavy bats

Oh boy! You don't wanna go there :p:.

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4 hours ago, MechEng said:

I thought Dravid played swing/seam better than Tendulkar.

No, not even close.  

 

Its only when you compare both of them post 2005, when Tendy was a shadow of his best, and Dravid had hit his absolute prime, that it gets close.  And even then, you have multiple examples like Tendy vs Steyn in SA etc.  

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1 hour ago, zen said:

Mental strength can be considered a part of technical strength too 

Dravid's 'mental strength' is overhyped.  

 

If he was so 'mentally strong' why did he consistently **** the bed against Aus, both home and away, until the 2nd innings of that Kolkata test? Not many remember that John Wright demoted his ass down to #6 in Kolkata, and kept him there for better part of a year.  And deservedly so.  

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1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Gavaskar

Aila

Dravid

 

you can’t have inferior technique, be an opener and average 50 in an era , where it is rare. Tendulkar might be on par, but was not tough mentally.  96 on a minefield against 2 spinners. Performance against pace quartet. People needed different set of skills to be successful in the 70s. Instead of batsmen who look like gladiators with broad heavy bats

Gavaskar himself has gone on record to say that Tendy has better technique than him, that while his defence was solid, he didn't possess the ability that Sachin had, to dispatch really good balls to the boundary.  Of course there was a bit of forced humility in that, and SMG himself was good enough to hit many a good ball for 4, but there was truth in it as well.  

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1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

Gavaskar

Aila

Dravid

 

you can’t have inferior technique, be an opener and average 50 in an era , where it is rare. Tendulkar might be on par, but was not tough mentally.  96 on a minefield against 2 spinners. Performance against pace quartet. People needed different set of skills to be successful in the 70s. Instead of batsmen who look like gladiators with broad heavy bats

Misleading. His record against WI and Aus, both paint the wrong picture. 

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2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Gavaskar himself has gone on record to say that Tendy has better technique than him, that while his defence was solid, he didn't possess the ability that Sachin had, to dispatch really good balls to the boundary.  Of course there was a bit of forced humility in that, and SMG himself was good enough to hit many a good ball for 4, but there was truth in it as well.  

Gavaskar also says, Vishvanath was a better batsman than him. He doesn’t know how to be a critique like Benaud or even Chappelli. Gavaskar is the last one I will go for his opinion on Tendulkar. His bias shows up every time he speaks. In the 90s his commentary was always Tendulkar- centric. 
By technique, I mean

defence

When to leave

when to block

When to duck

How to play shots on offside without going uppish

hook shots on the ground

Legside or onside play 

Tendulkar is god when it comes to playing perfect shots even on good deliveries and get 4s, but there is more to that in batting technique. Tendulkar had developed a weakness on playing offside , when he used to reach out to play. His highest 241 was played without a boundary on the offside. 

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17 minutes ago, sandeep said:

No, not even close.  

 

Its only when you compare both of them post 2005, when Tendy was a shadow of his best, and Dravid had hit his absolute prime, that it gets close.  And even then, you have multiple examples like Tendy vs Steyn in SA etc.  

Sachin better against seam, Dravid better against swing. 

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16 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

If you are taking about 1982 WI, he was at fag end playing for his 10000 runs only

No I am talking about almost all his successful series against WI starting from 1971. See I don't want to run down an Indian legend but 'he conquered WI quartet' is misleading. You can check which WI he mastered. I can present a series by series analysis of Sunny's exploits against WI/Aus when I have time...even his success against NZ, Pak for that matter. But if you check the scorecards and take into account WSC, you'll get the picture. He is an ATG no doubt but overrated in Indian circles...the polar opposite of Gundappa Vishy. 

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22 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Sachin better against seam, Dravid better against swing. 

Sachin better by yards, against seam, pace, spin.  Swing? You could make a case for Dravid based on post-2005 data, which is notably post-tennis elbow for Tendy.  Even so, in aggregate, Tendy is comfortably well ahead of Dravid from a question of technical proficiency.  

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25 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

. In the 90s his commentary was always Tendulkar- centric. 

just why is that though?  Just what was it about Tendulkar's batting that turns SMG into a gushing admirer.  Maybe, he knows a bit about batting?

 

26 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Tendulkar had developed a weakness on playing offside , when he used to reach out to play. His highest 241 was played without a boundary on the offside. 

Again, this was after 15+ years into his career, after altering his technique, changing his bat.  To use that to judge Tendy overall as a player, is like judging Kapil's entire career on the basis of his last couple of seasons.  Just because Tendulkar was quality enough to be still be an international calibre player for 8+ years, playing at a <80% level of his best, does not, cannot be interpreted to imply, as if that was his 'norm'.  

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I started following cricket seriously only from around 2000...in '98 and '99 followed only occasionally.

 

Based on my viewing experience against seam and bounce I found Tendu better. Pace I will call it a tie, Dravid did prety well against genuine pace. Against spin in general Sachin was better but against offies I have to give the edge to Dravid, the way he would rock back on back foot and punch/cut against the spin was :love:.

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11 minutes ago, Gollum said:

No I am talking about almost all his successful series against WI starting from 1971. See I don't want to run down an Indian legend but 'he conquered WI quartet' is misleading. You can check which WI he mastered. I can present a series by series analysis of Sunny's exploits against WI/Aus when I have time...even his success against NZ, Pak for that matter. But if you check the scorecards and take into account WSC, you'll get the picture. He is an ATG no doubt but overrated in Indian circles...the polar opposite of Gundappa Vishy. 

Still not a total dud like Dravid in 1999 and 2004 against Aus. Even in 2008.

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8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

just why is that though?  Just what was it about Tendulkar's batting that turns SMG into a gushing admirer.  Maybe, he knows a bit about batting?

 

Again, this was after 15+ years into his career, after altering his technique, changing his bat.  To use that to judge Tendy overall as a player, is like judging Kapil's entire career on the basis of his last couple of seasons.  Just because Tendulkar was quality enough to be still be an international calibre player for 8+ years, playing at a <80% level of his best, does not, cannot be interpreted to imply, as if that was his 'norm'.  

I just quoted one instance due to lack of time, Sachin had some chinks and not near perfect. As I said, textbook shots all three had, Sachin the best. Not talking about that, but vague things like playing obscure spinners. He was booed in Mumbai when he couldn’t play out Shaun Udal. We are comparing the three. I am rating them, not dissing Tendulkar

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22 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Ray Price, Monty, Cronje all troubled him

"troubling" a batsman happens to many a player, especially in a 25+ year career.  Dravid was abjectly owned by McGrath and Warne. For years.  Heck even in their absence, Australia could choke his limited scoring zones and simply wait for him to get out. 

 

Tendy was not perfect - no sportsman is.  But the baseless over-hyping of Dravid to not only bring him up to Tendy's level, or to even claim somehow he was 'better', is quite frankly, silly.

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7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

"troubling" a batsman happens to many a player, especially in a 25+ year career.  Dravid was abjectly owned by McGrath and Warne. For years.  Heck even in their absence, Australia could choke his limited scoring zones and simply wait for him to get out. 

 

Tendy was not perfect - no sportsman is.  But the baseless over-hyping of Dravid to not only bring him up to Tendy's level, or to even claim somehow he was 'better', is quite frankly, silly.

Look at my rating. 
SMG

Tendulkar

....

Dravid

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Dravid is overhyped in test.. Other than that eng series 2011 during his last leg . He was always piss poor against great bowling attacks. And it reflect in his batting performance against sa and aus during his days and for that matter even against Pak when 2 ws have played.

Edited by raki05

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28 minutes ago, raki05 said:

He was always piss poor against great bowling attacks.

piss poor is swinging pendulum in the opposite direction.  Dravid had a solid defense and was an opportunistic scorer.  It is not a co-incidence that so many of his 'famous' innings have come with an even better, more dominant innings by the other batsman in the partnership.

 

This is not to denigrate Dravid, he went on to have his share of independently match-winning innings.  But even at his best, he simply wasn't the calibre of batsman that in-prime Tendy was.  It is what it is.

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32 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Look at my rating. 
SMG

Tendulkar

....

Dravid

The thing about Gavaskar's batting as compared to Tendy, is that SMG's batting was built on the fundamentals of attrition.  Of tiring the bowlers out.  Playing the waiting game.  Partly its a function of the era, partly a function of the fact that he batted in a brittle batting unit, especially away.  

 

But Tendy also batted with brittle batting units, but still dominated bowlers.  Especially in the 90s.  Even away.  In spite of coming in at 10/2, more often than not.

 

But Gavaskar's performances were special in their own right.  And I have no qualms with folks evaluating him as a shade higher than Tendy.  I mean, comparisons across eras are always tricky and subjective anyway.  But that at least has some semblance of logic and merit.  But claiming that the likes of a Dravid, a Ponting or a Kallis, are somehow better than Tendy, is silly.

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Imo Sunny is India's best test batsman ever imo. Sunny,Tendulkar and Dravid are all technically sound batsmen.

 

However, Sachin had the slightly better ability to score runs off good balls which Sunny and Dravid would usually just fend off or score nothing of it more often than not. In stroke play aspect he had the better intent to score in test format than other two.

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Gavaskar and Dravid have demonstrated their abilities to bat in the top order in tests, a challenge to your technique. Gavaskar was Ind’s key batsman and needed no shielding vs some who have traditionally shied away from such challenges 

 

Rather than worry about who is technically better, I could focus on the ones who can provide a better output irrespective of the technique 

 

I think subcon fans are more focused on technique, how a batsman looks when batting, etc., because their teams haven’t won much relatively so they have probably been conditioned to focus on such mundane aspects 

 

Guys who would not be rated high on technique such as Waugh have played quite a few fighting knocks under pressure and/or in tough conditions

Edited by zen

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2 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Imo Sunny is India's best test batsman ever imo. Sunny,Tendulkar and Dravid are all technically sound batsmen.

 

However, Sachin had the slightly better ability to score runs off good balls which Sunny and Dravid would usually just fend off or score nothing of it more often than not. In stroke play aspect he had the better intent to score in test format than other two.

If you needed to pick a batsman who has to bat a full day to save your life, you'd pick Gavaskar ahead of the rest.

 

If you needed to pick a batsman most likely to score a good number of runs in 2 sessions or the full day, you'd have to pick Tendulkar.  

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

He could only play such knocks because he was hiding at 5 and 6 throughout his career :p:.

I am not saying he is the best just highlighting some facts :dontknow:

 

PS even he has played 5-6 tests in top order iirc :nod: 

Edited by zen

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Dravid never had the perfect technique. His bat used to come down at an angle with his feet planted forward, making him play across the line a lot. This was heavily exploited by the seam/swing bowlers in the late 90s. He obviously worked around it and managed to make it work tremendously well. However once he got old and his reflexes waned he was again getting targeted along the stump line and was struggling. Just see how many times he was getting cleaned up later in his career.

Tendulkar on the other hand had THE most copybook technique. I get the feeling he didn't play too many ugly, back against the wall kind of knocks, which make you admire someone's defensive game. 

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17 minutes ago, zen said:

I am not saying he is the best just highlighting some facts :dontknow:

I didn't say you did. Just stating that he shied away from batting in the TO and was comfortable hiding in the MO at 5 and 6. If he was so good under pressure and in tough conditions why didn't he take on the challenge of batting in the top order where the conditions are truly tough? :confused:

 

But no, he was comfortable batting in his cocoon at 5/6 and coming in after the opening bowlers were mostly done with their spells and the shine was taken off the new ball. And don't get me started on his shtick of "trusting" the tailenders. Time has arrived to cancel Steve Waugh as a MO and red ink bully IMO. 

Edited by Jimmy Cliff

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1 minute ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

I didn't say you did. Just stating that he shied away from batting in the TO and was comfortable hiding in the MO at 5 and 6. If he was so good under pressure and in tough conditions why didn't he take on the challenge of batting in the top order where the conditions are truly tough? :confused:

 

But no, he was comfortable batting in his cocoon at 5/6 and coming in after the opening bowlers were mostly done with their spells and the shine was taken off the new ball. And don't get me started off on his shtick of "trusting" the tailenders. Time has arrived to cancel Steve Waugh as a MO and red ink bully IMO. 


ok but note that even with such technique he has batted 5-6 tests in TO iirc :nod: 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Gollum said:

I started following cricket seriously only from around 2000...in '98 and '99 followed only occasionally.

 

Based on my viewing experience against seam and bounce I found Tendu better. Pace I will call it a tie, Dravid did prety well against genuine pace. Against spin in general Sachin was better but against offies I have to give the edge to Dravid, the way he would rock back on back foot and punch/cut against the spin was :love:.

dravid was bunny for leg spin. He used to get out to shane warne quite a bit. Then enter VVS who taught dravid how to play leg spin at eden.

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1 minute ago, zen said:


ok but note that even with such technique he has batted 5-6 tests in TO iirc :nod: 

 

 

Yep where he failed. Just as he failed resoundingly at 4 and ran away to 5/6 to protect his average :winky:. All batsmen who spent a bulk of their careers batting at 4 with any sort of success are braver and more courageous than Waugh :p:.

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6 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Yep where he failed. Just as he failed resoundingly at 4 and ran away to 5/6 to protect his average :winky:. All batsmen who spent a bulk of their careers batting at 4 with any sort of success are braver and more courageous than Waugh :p:.

I understand the humour but will add it is ok to fail, accept that you are not that good in TO, and move down, then not take on the challenge despite the opportunities and pretend that you could be more successful than those doing the hard work early on :nod:

 

Not many claim Waugh to be the best anyways but appreciate him for what he brings to the table. 

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15 minutes ago, zen said:

I understand the humour but will add it is ok to fail, accept that you are not that good in TO, and move down, then not take on the challenge despite the opportunities and pretend that you could be more successful than those doing the hard work early on :nod:

 

Not many claim Waugh to be the best anyways but appreciate him for what he brings to the table. 

I used to appreciate him a lot but the last couple of days have been eye opening for me :agree:. For all the hullabaloo about Waugh being the ice man and what not, he was actually a shirker who ran away from the challenge of the TO. Taylor and Slater might as well be considered war heroes for daring to open the innings in Tests unlike Waugh who was hiding in a bunker at 5/6.

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2 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

I used to appreciate him a lot but the last couple of days have been eye opening for me :agree:. For all the hullabaloo about Waugh being the ice man and what not, he was actually a shirker who ran away from the challenge of the TO. Taylor and Slater might as well be considered war heroes for daring to open the innings in Tests unlike Waugh who was hiding in a bunker at 5/6.

Ok but no claims that Waugh has the technique to be successful anywhere in the batting order or he is the greatest ever - if that were the case, ....  :nod: 

 

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

I used to appreciate him a lot but the last couple of days have been eye opening for me :agree:. For all the hullabaloo about Waugh being the ice man and what not, he was actually a shirker who ran away from the challenge of the TO. Taylor and Slater might as well be considered war heroes for daring to open the innings in Tests unlike Waugh who was hiding in a bunker at 5/6.

Going great keep it up...:wp106::cheer:

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23 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Dravid batted like tailunder in front of Mendis and Murali. 

Do you mean this?

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India remove India from query
Opposition team Sri Lanka remove Sri Lanka from query
Home or away away (home of opposition) remove away (home of opposition) from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2007 and 1 Jan 2009 remove between 1 Jan 2007 and 1 Jan 2009 from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 12 of 12   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
V Sehwag 3 6 1 344 201* 68.80 366 93.98 1 1 0 46 5 investigate this query
G Gambhir 3 6 0 310 74 51.66 568 54.57 0 3 0 40 0 investigate this query
VVS Laxman 3 6 1 215 61* 43.00 443 48.53 0 2 0 18 0 investigate this query
R Dravid 3 6 0 148 68 24.66 358 41.34 0 1 0 15 0 investigate this query
SC Ganguly 3 6 0 96 35 16.00 226 42.47 0 0 1 11 2 investigate this query
SR Tendulkar 3 6 0 95 31 15.83 155 61.29 0 0 0 11 0 investigate this query
I Sharma 3 6 3 35 17* 11.66 126 27.77 0 0 3 1 0 investigate this query
Harbhajan Singh 3 6 0 65 26 10.83 96 67.70 0 0 0 9 0 investigate this query
KD Karthik 2 4 0 36 20 9.00 55 65.45 0 0 1 2 2 investigate this query
Z Khan 3 6 1 43 32 8.60 129 33.33 0 0 1 3 1 investigate this query
PA Patel 1 2 0 14 13 7.00 44 31.81 0 0 0 1 0 investigate this query
A Kumble 3 6 0 29 12 4.83 100 29.00 0 0 0 3 0

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4 hours ago, zen said:

Do you mean this?

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India remove India from query
Opposition team Sri Lanka remove Sri Lanka from query
Home or away away (home of opposition) remove away (home of opposition) from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2007 and 1 Jan 2009 remove between 1 Jan 2007 and 1 Jan 2009 from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 12 of 12   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
V Sehwag 3 6 1 344 201* 68.80 366 93.98 1 1 0 46 5 investigate this query
G Gambhir 3 6 0 310 74 51.66 568 54.57 0 3 0 40 0 investigate this query
VVS Laxman 3 6 1 215 61* 43.00 443 48.53 0 2 0 18 0 investigate this query
R Dravid 3 6 0 148 68 24.66 358 41.34 0 1 0 15 0 investigate this query
SC Ganguly 3 6 0 96 35 16.00 226 42.47 0 0 1 11 2 investigate this query
SR Tendulkar 3 6 0 95 31 15.83 155 61.29 0 0 0 11 0 investigate this query
I Sharma 3 6 3 35 17* 11.66 126 27.77 0 0 3 1 0 investigate this query
Harbhajan Singh 3 6 0 65 26 10.83 96 67.70 0 0 0 9 0 investigate this query
KD Karthik 2 4 0 36 20 9.00 55 65.45 0 0 1 2 2 investigate this query
Z Khan 3 6 1 43 32 8.60 129 33.33 0 0 1 3 1 investigate this query
PA Patel 1 2 0 14 13 7.00 44 31.81 0 0 0 1 0 investigate this query
A Kumble 3 6 0 29 12 4.83 100 29.00 0 0 0 3 0

No I am talking about his batting in do overall. Help urself and see all his marvellous batting in sl.

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/cricket/india/rahul-dravid-2274/test-record-v-sri-lanka_a01196/

 

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