Jul 1959 to Jul 2011, 52 years, 9 five wicket hauls against India; last 8 years, 8 five wicket hauls. How did we reach this situation?

[Trichromatic]

Is current Indian team worst while facing spin?

From Apr 1981 - Apr 2011, John Traicos was only spinner to take 5-fer against India outside Asia.

 

Number of 5 wickets hauls by spinners against India in outside Asia

 

2010s

Nathan Lyon - 4

Moeen Ali - 2

Roston Chase - 1

Swann - 1

 

2000s

-

1990s

John Tracois (Zim)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16475/scorecard/63583/zimbabwe-vs-india-only-test-india-tour-of-zimbabwe-1992-93

 

1980s

John Bracewell (NZ)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17036/scorecard/63288/new-zealand-vs-india-3rd-test-india-tour-of-new-zealand-1980-81

9 wickets in the match!

 

List of all 5-fers by spinners outside Asia against India

Player	Overs	BPO	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	Econ	Inns		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
NM Lyon (AUS)	34.5	6	7	67	5	1.92	2		v India	Perth	14 Dec 2018
NM Lyon (AUS)	42.0	6	7	122	6	2.90	3		v India	Adelaide	6 Dec 2018
MM Ali (ENG)	16.0	6	1	63	5	3.93	2		v India	Southampton	30 Aug 2018
RL Chase (WI)	36.1	6	4	121	5	3.34	2		v India	Kingston	30 Jul 2016
NM Lyon (AUS)	36.0	6	4	134	5	3.72	2		v India	Adelaide	9 Dec 2014
NM Lyon (AUS)	34.1	6	5	152	7	4.44	4		v India	Adelaide	9 Dec 2014
MM Ali (ENG)	20.4	6	4	67	6	3.24	4		v India	Southampton	27 Jul 2014
GP Swann (ENG)	38.0	6	6	106	6	2.78	3		v India	The Oval	18 Aug 2011
AJ Traicos (ZIM)	50.0	6	16	86	5	1.72	2		v India	Harare	18 Oct 1992
JG Bracewell (NZ)	41.0	6	19	75	5	1.82	3		v India	Auckland	13 Mar 1981
DAJ Holford (WI)	8.1	6	1	23	5	2.81	1		v India	Bridgetown	10 Mar 1976
R Illingworth (ENG)	34.3	6	12	70	5	2.02	2		v India	The Oval	19 Aug 1971
JM Noreiga (WI)	53.4	6	8	129	5	2.40	3		v India	Port of Spain	13 Apr 1971
JM Noreiga (WI)	49.4	6	16	95	9	1.91	2		v India	Port of Spain	6 Mar 1971
RB Simpson (AUS)	23.0	8	5	59	5	1.92	4		v India	Sydney	26 Jan 1968
R Illingworth (ENG)	22.3	6	12	29	6	1.28	3		v India	Lord's	22 Jun 1967
LR Gibbs (WI)	53.3	6	37	38	8	0.71	3		v India	Bridgetown	23 Mar 1962
T Greenhough (ENG)	16.0	6	4	35	5	2.18	1		v India	Lord's	18 Jun 1959
AL Valentine (WI)	27.5	6	9	64	5	2.29	1		v India	Kingston	28 Mar 1953
AL Valentine (WI)	53.5	6	20	127	5	2.35	1		v India	Georgetown	11 Mar 1953
S Ramadhin (WI)	24.5	6	11	26	5	1.04	4		v India	Bridgetown	7 Feb 1953
JM Sims (ENG)	18.5	6	1	73	5	3.87	2		v India	The Oval	15 Aug 1936

 

 

[Adi BB]

This is alarming! And to answer your question,yes it is the worst lot 

[Rightarmfast]

@rkt.india weren't you having a discussion at how the present Indian batsmen are just as good and warnie was easy to sweep against?  :) Go through this data

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, Rightarmfast said:

@rkt.india weren't you having a discussion at how the present Indian batsmen are just as good and warnie was easy to sweep against?  :) Go through this data

Lyon is great off spinner and Moeen Ali is probably better than all spinners who faced India in since 80s.

[gattaca]

The current lot just doesn’t attack the spinner. The older players used to a lot. Sidhu would keep hitting them for sixers, azhar used to come down the track and hit inside out or rock back cut. Sachin played warne pretty well. Laxman is genius the wristy flicks. Now the current lot they are just timid and give the bowler too much respect. Too much grass pitches in ranji I guess but still dont understand this or may be too much foreign coaching.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

Lyon is great off spinner and Moeen Ali is probably better than all spinners who faced India in since 80s.

better than warnie and murali? well, you learn something new everyday.

[zen]

I don't appreciate how many do analysis in the subcontinent, where quantity is usually given the weightage so someone scoring 12,000 runs in 150 tests is better than someone scoring 10,000 runs in 100 tests, someone picking 450 wkts in 150 tests is better than someone picking 400 wkts in 100 tests

 

 

* 2010s is till Dec 24, 2018 

* Based on matches played outside Asia (and in terms of 5 wkts taken, the criteria of this thread), 1950s side was the worst. However, it depends on a variety of factors such as bowling strength of the opposition, teams ability to play pace so if we are giving more wkts to pace bowlers, the spinner may not get the opportunity to pick 5 wkts, pitches, etc. 

* If the criteria is 4-er, the likes of Paul Harris has done that too in SA 

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

One thing which we dont see in huge % these days by indian batsman is stepping down n hitting spinners like here we see sidhu not even allowing the ball to turn 

 

Then those guys played far better quality spinners in domestic , our batsman like kohli n rahane in last few yrs hasnt played much domestic. Then their was a phase in btw were started prep green tracks in ranji which made trunlders rule the charts and affected the spinners role in domestic cricket 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[SK_IH]

7 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Lyon is great off spinner and Moeen Ali is probably better than all spinners who faced India in since 80s.

sorry but Lyon is also not a great off spinner, very good and consistent that's about it. He can be easily slaughtered by batsman who attack him.

[Rightarmfast]

7 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

One thing which we dont see in huge % these days by indian batsman is stepping down n hitting spinners like here we see sidhu not even allowing the ball to turn 

 

Then those guys played far better quality spinners in domestic , our batsman like kohli n rahane in last few yrs hasnt played much domestic. Then their was a phase in btw were started prep green tracks in ranji which made trunlders rule the charts and affected the spinners role in domestic cricket 

 

For a change, I agree with you @Ankit_sharma03

[Clarke]

11 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

@rkt.india weren't you having a discussion at how the present Indian batsmen are just as good and warnie was easy to sweep against?  :) Go through this data

He just gets a high from being a contrarian. It is mighty obvious how our ability to play spin has fallen.

[Rookie123]

34 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

Drs lbw rule has made a big impact on the effectiveness of spinners ,no longer can you confidently pad away balls on the 4th stump and to add to that Ishant's landing is such that he digs up a big hole in front of the right hander's off stump, when bowling round the wkt to the left handers.Off spinners like ali and lyon have exploited these situations quite nicely.

DRS yes....

 

Roughs, no.... We are losing wickets to spinners on day 1, long before any rough is created

[raki05]

12 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Is current Indian team worst while facing spin?

From Apr 1981 - Apr 2011, John Traicos was only spinner to take 5-fer against India outside Asia.

 

Number of 5 wickets hauls by spinners against India in outside Asia

 

2010s

Nathan Lyon - 4

Moeen Ali - 2

Roston Chase - 1

Swann - 1

 

2000s

-

1990s

John Tracois (Zim)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16475/scorecard/63583/zimbabwe-vs-india-only-test-india-tour-of-zimbabwe-1992-93

 

1980s

John Bracewell (NZ)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17036/scorecard/63288/new-zealand-vs-india-3rd-test-india-tour-of-new-zealand-1980-81

9 wickets in the match!

 

List of all 5-fers by spinners outside Asia against India

Player	Overs	BPO	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	Econ	Inns		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
NM Lyon (AUS)	34.5	6	7	67	5	1.92	2		v India	Perth	14 Dec 2018
NM Lyon (AUS)	42.0	6	7	122	6	2.90	3		v India	Adelaide	6 Dec 2018
MM Ali (ENG)	16.0	6	1	63	5	3.93	2		v India	Southampton	30 Aug 2018
RL Chase (WI)	36.1	6	4	121	5	3.34	2		v India	Kingston	30 Jul 2016
NM Lyon (AUS)	36.0	6	4	134	5	3.72	2		v India	Adelaide	9 Dec 2014
NM Lyon (AUS)	34.1	6	5	152	7	4.44	4		v India	Adelaide	9 Dec 2014
MM Ali (ENG)	20.4	6	4	67	6	3.24	4		v India	Southampton	27 Jul 2014
GP Swann (ENG)	38.0	6	6	106	6	2.78	3		v India	The Oval	18 Aug 2011
AJ Traicos (ZIM)	50.0	6	16	86	5	1.72	2		v India	Harare	18 Oct 1992
JG Bracewell (NZ)	41.0	6	19	75	5	1.82	3		v India	Auckland	13 Mar 1981
DAJ Holford (WI)	8.1	6	1	23	5	2.81	1		v India	Bridgetown	10 Mar 1976
R Illingworth (ENG)	34.3	6	12	70	5	2.02	2		v India	The Oval	19 Aug 1971
JM Noreiga (WI)	53.4	6	8	129	5	2.40	3		v India	Port of Spain	13 Apr 1971
JM Noreiga (WI)	49.4	6	16	95	9	1.91	2		v India	Port of Spain	6 Mar 1971
RB Simpson (AUS)	23.0	8	5	59	5	1.92	4		v India	Sydney	26 Jan 1968
R Illingworth (ENG)	22.3	6	12	29	6	1.28	3		v India	Lord's	22 Jun 1967
LR Gibbs (WI)	53.3	6	37	38	8	0.71	3		v India	Bridgetown	23 Mar 1962
T Greenhough (ENG)	16.0	6	4	35	5	2.18	1		v India	Lord's	18 Jun 1959
AL Valentine (WI)	27.5	6	9	64	5	2.29	1		v India	Kingston	28 Mar 1953
AL Valentine (WI)	53.5	6	20	127	5	2.35	1		v India	Georgetown	11 Mar 1953
S Ramadhin (WI)	24.5	6	11	26	5	1.04	4		v India	Bridgetown	7 Feb 1953
JM Sims (ENG)	18.5	6	1	73	5	3.87	2		v India	The Oval	15 Aug 1936

 

 

Because we are best travelling team in past 10-15 year.

[Rookie123]

22 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

When did we do that?

Bhai zyada door nahin Jana hai, check our performance against Lyon in first innings of both tests at Perth and Adelaide

[coffee_rules]

Lack of quality spinners in the domestic circuit and IPL

Is the reason.

[velu]

spin bowlers are getting better ... proves scoring runs now is even more difficult than it was earlier

 

[rkt.india]

18 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

@rkt.india weren't you having a discussion at how the present Indian batsmen are just as good and warnie was easy to sweep against?  :) Go through this data

Our batsmen are never known for sweep so that's out of equation. Our batsmen well equipped to handle slower pace bowlers bowling 70-80 kph. These days most spinners are quick in the air. You know we lost to England 2012 home series despite SRT, viru, gg being there. Pace of english spinners troubled our batsmen. They were accurate as well. Our spinners Ojha and Ashwin were slow and inaccurate. You remember even Nicky Boje troubled us in 2000 SA test series at home?

[rkt.india]

Also one of the biggest reason is in the past we would crumble against pacers, so spinners would rarely come into play.

[Trichromatic]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Also one of the biggest reason is in the past we would crumble against pacers, so spinners would rarely come into play.

And we are not crumbling against pacers now, so spinners are coming into play.

 

@Rightarmfast @Ankit_sharma03

 

We have solid openers compared to fragiles ones in 90s and 2000s, better no 3, better no 4 and superiod tail who refuse to crumble against pacers, so obviously spinners will take wickets.

 

[Rightarmfast]

5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

And we are not crumbling against pacers now, so spinners are coming into play.

 

@Rightarmfast @Ankit_sharma03

 

We have solid openers compared to fragiles ones in 90s and 2000s, better no 3, better no 4 and superiod tail who refuse to crumble against pacers, so obviously spinners will take wickets.

 

Bro, our openers? Really? One of the reasons  they are not crumbling against pacers is because there are hardly express pace bowlers now in world cricket. Consistent 150+ bowlers. Most bowlers are in 138-145 range.

I agree since faster bowlers are not taking as many wickets against us ( though havent checked the stats, we will have to study this point a bit more, sounds interesting though), spinners will take. However, our batsmen our crumbling against spinners. Theres a difference between taking wickets and owning the batsmen. The spinners own our batsmen these days! Dont you agree?