Harsha Bhogle on Pants inclusion

[Laaloo]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Start watching more games, and you'll see.  He has dropped chances in Eng/Aus already.

I have watched most of the games I have. He’s far from shakti Kapoor as you are making out to be. Anyone without bias can see, bhogle has been against pant for years now. Whether it’s because he works for chuskibuzz or some other bias, you can choose what you want to believe.

[Laaloo]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

He's not attacking Pant - he's questioning the logic of not picking the best gloveman.  

 

Even on fan forums, folks need to learn to attack the idea and argument, not the man.  Think about it.

Lol yeah keep being in denial.

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Laaloo said:

Lol yeah keep being in denial.

"Lol".

 

Fine.  Stick to your saas bahu conspiracy theories. 

 

If you cannot see the yawningly obvious quality gap between the wicket-keeping output of Saha and Pant, there's no point in discussing this with you.  At that point, you simply lack the capacity to evaluate the risk that the team takes, by benching Saha for Pant in a test match.

Edited February 21, 2020 by sandeep

[Gollum]

* you guys, Shakti Kapoor is awesome

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, Gollum said:

* you guys, Shakti Kapoor is awesome

I used this exact image to troll a close friend of mine for years - context - I also called him "kandi" for his tendency to constantly try and poke all others in that whatsapp group of friends.  Both the nickname and the image stuck to him like white on rice!  Needless to say, his 'love' for me became garden garden after that.

[rkt.india]

33 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Start watching more games, and you'll see.  He has dropped chances in Eng/Aus already. 

 

He is consistently off-balance with his footwork against pace and spin - and as a result almost always 'late' getting his gloves on the ball, never in optimal position - hence the need for more "spectacular" looking dives.  Don't argue if you don't pay attention and watch the games.  Scorecards and cricinfo articles don't give you the facts - and watching youtube videos is entertainment, not education.

Most wks would drop catches in England.  Saha didnt play there.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Most wks would drop catches in England.  Saha didnt play there.

That's a fair argument - but what about Pant's flubs in Aus.  And its not the drops - even the best will make mistakes.  Its the nature of the mistakes, that lead you to expect the probability of them repeating.

 

And to clarify, Pant is by no means a terrible glove man.  He's serviceable.  But in Saha, we have a genuine top-class 'keeper, his excellence makes the gap between them wide, not that Pant is completely horrible.

 

All said and done, I can accept the logic of horses for courses, the need to bolster the batting in conditions where Saha is at  best a battling tailender with the bat.  Its a reasonable argument - horses for courses.

 

But by the same argument - that you look at your options and pick the team that gives you strongest combination on the day - the same argument makes the selection for Shaw over Gill/Rahul questionable - because there, you have flipped the argument on its head, and gone with "incumbency".  Not to mention the fact that both Shaw and Pant are "dashers" and in conditions where you need more grit, A Gill/Rahul would maybe have better served India's cause.

 

Again, individually I can accept the case for Shaw over Gill/Rahul.  Or Pant over Saha.  Together, its questionable.

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Saha has dropped ONE gettable chance that I remember - and that was after suffering an injury in that game that resulted in him missing a bunch of games after.

 

Pant, by contrast, has regularly dropped catches.  There is simply no dispute or argument on the reliability of their glovework.  With Saha, if a drop happens, its an anomaly.  With Rishabh, its expected.  And that's not even taking into consideration the half-chances that Saha would be expected to take, that Pant, with his poor footwork, would only make unsuccessful "acrobatic dives" for, only to perform a catchy little kip-up to get off the ground.  

 

Don't be seduced by Pant's youth, his obvious batting potential.  When talking about glovework, Saha is Amitabh Bachchan while Pant is barely Shakti Kapoor.

I don't think so, Pant is not the worst keeper especially to pacers.He is far better batsman.So overall I will take Pant over Saha anyday. The day where keepers are in for keeping alone is over and rightly so.

[sandeep]

29 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

When did grit become associated with Rahul, the serial bottler? Or even Gill, who bottled it in ODIs and now both the innings in warm up?

Relatively speaking, Rahul has demonstrated more grit against quality opponents than Shaw has.  The "serial bottler" also has a record of "serial" 50+ scores for India.  And is also in a much richer vein of form, than when he was in his slump. 

 

And I'm not saying I want Rahul in Shaw's place for this test - I am saying the logic is conflicting in the call for Shaw over Gill, vs Pant over Saha.

[Cricwala]

2 hours ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Virat logic

Rahul (keeper batsman) > Pant (keeper batsman) 

Pant  (keeper batsman) > Saha(keeper batsman) 

But Rahul isnt in test squad hence pant in test

 

Problem stems when we try to find logic where there is none. Why did Kohli choose Saha and 5 bowlers at home, and then changed to pant & 4 bowlers today? The only explanation I can think of - Kohli knew 5 batsmen are enough to rack up big scores at-home against weak/mediocre opposition like SA & BD and Jadeja, Saha, Ashwin can also fill their boots as batsmen in Asian conditions. With 5 bowlers, he cld absolutely rip opposition to shreds and register thumping victories which are good for shock & awe. His outlook is short - term, he knows how to give sound bytes but ego makes him look for immediate satisfaction rather than sacrifice a temporary advantage for long-term goal like SENA which is a final frontier for indian test cricket. Bringing Rohit/Dhawan in mix for SA 2018, dropping Pujara/Rahane in SA & Eng, unnecessarily bowling Bhuvi and Bumrah in ODIs just before tests against Eng, kicking Kuldeep out altogether despite his brilliant bowling in Sydney, treatment of pant...this tells me that Kohli is not prepared to take pains to win consistently in SENA. He basically lives series to series, and turns up for series expecting intent and decision-making on the day to get him through.

 

His ego also possibly makes him see all youngsters as dispensable, while only he, Rohit, Bumrah, Ishant and Shami are permanents in test team - his natural inclination to rate 'seniority' perhaps? With a yes man as coach, there is no one to challenge his assumption or provide a counterpoint to his impulsive decisions..he obviously does not like being questioned.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Cricwala

[Laaloo]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

"Lol".

 

Fine.  Stick to your saas bahu conspiracy theories. 

 

If you cannot see the yawningly obvious quality gap between the wicket-keeping output of Saha and Pant, there's no point in discussing this with you.  At that point, you simply lack the capacity to evaluate the risk that the team takes, by benching Saha for Pant in a test match.

Sure. I can’t help if you choose to ignore the truth. You should go read up all the commentary threads whenever pant has batted on chuskibuzz. He has always been criticized by harsha bhogle and the likes in between dhoni love fest of course.

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Cricwala said:

Bringing Rohit/Dhawan in mix for SA 2018, dropping Pujara/Rahane in SA & Eng, unnecessarily bowling Bhuvi and Bumrah in ODIs just before tests against Eng

We had a test series victory possible in SA. and could have been a lot more competitive in England.  These hurts, along with  the planned failure in the WC, will take a long time forgiving.  

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Laaloo said:

You should go read up all the commentary threads whenever pant has batted on chuskibuzz. He has always been criticized by harsha bhogle and the likes in between dhoni love fest of course.

"Commentary threads"?  Seriously - I'm out here to discuss cricket with men, not gossip about he said she said with little girls.

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Cricwala said:

Problem stems when we try to find logic where there is none. Why did Kohli choose Saha and 5 bowlers at home, and then changed to pant & 4 bowlers today? The only explanation I can think of - Kohli knew 5 batsmen are enough to rack up big scores at-home against weak/mediocre opposition like SA & BD and Jadeja, Saha, Ashwin can also fill their boots as batsmen in Asian conditions. With 5 bowlers, he cld absolutely rip opposition to shreds and register thumping victories which are good for shock & awe. His outlook is short - term, he knows how to give sound bytes but ego makes him look for immediate satisfaction rather than sacrifice a temporary advantage for long-term goal like SENA which is a final frontier for indian test cricket. Bringing Rohit/Dhawan in mix for SA 2018, dropping Pujara/Rahane in SA & Eng, unnecessarily bowling Bhuvi and Bumrah in ODIs just before tests against Eng, kicking Kuldeep out altogether despite his brilliant bowling in Sydney, treatment of pant...this tells me that Kohli is not prepared to take pains to win consistently in SENA. He basically lives series to series, and turns up for series expecting intent and decision-making on the day to get him through.

 

His ego also possibly makes him see all youngsters as dispensable, while only he, Rohit, Bumrah, Ishant and Shami are permanents in test team - his natural inclination to rate 'seniority' perhaps? With a yes man as coach, there is no one to challenge his assumption or provide a counterpoint to his impulsive decisions..he obviously does not like being questioned.

dude, are you, me? 

[Laaloo]

15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

"Commentary threads"?  Seriously - I'm out here to discuss cricket with men, not gossip about he said she said with little girls.

This thread is specifically about harsha bhogle and his views regarding pant. Harsha bhogle works for Cricbuzz. How about you try seeing the trends against pant on cricbuzz and see how bhogle has always been very vocally against pant. If you can’t see it, then I can’t help you. 

[putrevus]

The days of keeper getting into the team just based on his glove work are over. You need a keeper who can bat but is good behind wickets.You can always learn the art of keeping even if you are not natural.Dhoni became a very good keeper for spinners.

 

Pant kept without any major issues against fast bowlers so far in his career.

[sandeep]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

Pant kept without any major issues against fast bowlers so far in his career.

"major issues".

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

"major issues".

Saha against fast bowlers would have made may be one or two less mistakes than Pant .Your comparision of Shakti Kapoor is ridiculous.

 

Keeper has to do his job, it does not have to be spectacular.

 

 

[bowl_out]

Saha is an extremely good keeper... Pant is a safe keeper with some minor issues to be corrected..

Pant looks to be a wonderful bat, at least in Tests... Saha is below average..

 

To play an overseas Test, I'd easily pick Pant over Saha.

[nevada]

While happy that Pant got a chance, I feel sad for Saha who earned accolades for world class keeping in recent series and got dumped now. It's a marginal decision with pros and cons either way. But I find Harsha's tweet cringeworthy and over the top.