Is India missing Ashwin's bowling in 2nd test?

[Jay]

Ashwin can take pitch out of equation. His issue is only fitness which is a bit better now. He is a 2 to 3 test player. 

 

 

[rollingstoned]

I happen to think the tm got the selection spot on in this game covering all bases considering that Shardul was out. 2 spinners in England unless it's a place like the Oval is a no-go imo even accounting for the fact that Jadeja is playing as a batsman. We need 4 seamers to rotate as we are seeing both in this game and in the wtc final where the likes of Shami and Ishant were tiring. It's rare that spinners will be the reason that you win a series in SENA.

Edited August 15, 2021 by rollingstoned

[nevada]

The new and improved version of Ashwin can be a factor. What is done is done but in the next few games they can pick him. Vihari for Pujara, Ashwin for Jaddu and Jaddu for Rahane would do it. Rahane isn't scoring any runs and Jaddu can easily outscore him. 

[Frustrated]

Ashwin should replace no baller Bumrah in next test.   Ishant, despite being mediocre chips in with 2 to 3 wickets every inning. So, let him play the next test at least.  

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Didn't yasir shaha take a 10fer there? Moeen Ali averages 33 with 25 wickets.  Swann averages 25.  This is last 10 years record.  Ashwin unlike any other spinner has the ability to use different variations. Besides this English side has a lot of scars against Ashwin who owned them left right center not long ago.

Ashwin isn't playing first time in England and has done nothing of note.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Ashwin isn't playing first time in England and has done nothing of note.

 

Kohli sucked in the first series. DId well in the 2nd time. Now he sucks again. We can't go by history. Ponting most of the time sucked in India. He wasn't dropped. Under Dhoni Ashwin played a defensive role.

 

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

27 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kohli sucked in the first series. DId well in the 2nd time. Now he sucks again. We can't go by history. Ponting most of the time sucked in India. He wasn't dropped. Under Dhoni Ashwin played a defensive role.

 

 

Absurd comparison. Was Ponting ineffective in Pakistan and Sri Lanka as well? The answer is no 

 

Ashwin OTOH is yet to take a 5-er in SENA.

 

Having said that, we should ALWAYS pick Ashwin and Jadeja plus 3 seamers. If Thakur is fit he should be the 3rd seamer alongside Siraj and Bumrah/Shami

[R!TTER]

13 hours ago, sarchasm said:

record of McGrath or other top quicks on those very pitches.

McGrath's record in India isn't the best, he doesn't even have a 5er here IIRC. The wrecker In Chief when he played was always Gillespie, Kasper or Clarke/Warne on that last tour in 2004. It isn't bad per se but some of the wickets he got in 2004 were simply disgraceful umpiring especially by that *wit Bowden, like the big inside edge lbw for Sehwag in Bangalore!

[Suhaan]

Ashwin if plays should share bulk of overs bowled anyway,i repeat he's no Warne who would walk in straightaway into xi irrespective of conditions especially SENA conditions

He is a good bowler,but it would be always like taking a punt on him

Thay doesn't mean Ishant is irreplaceable,we should be looking for replacements for Ishant,Shami asap

Sundar i believe is someone who can play at top5 and bowl good amount of overs, genuine AR material

Edited August 15, 2021 by Suhaan

[vvvslaxman]

42 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Absurd comparison. Was Ponting ineffective in Pakistan and Sri Lanka as well? The answer is no 

 

Ashwin OTOH is yet to take a 5-er in SENA.

 

Having said that, we should ALWAYS pick Ashwin and Jadeja plus 3 seamers. If Thakur is fit he should be the 3rd seamer alongside Siraj and Bumrah/Shami

 

Ashwin averages 28 in England. Punter averaged 26 in India.   Each country/team is different. 

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Ashwin averages 28 in England. Punter averaged 26 in India.   Each country/team is different. 

 

Your comparison was why was Ponting not dropped in India despite failures but Ashwin gets dropped in SENA.

 

Answer is Ponting struggled only in India. Did well in Pakistan and Sri Lanka, helping his team to series wins in spinning conditions

 

Ashwin OTOH has had lots of struggles in Australia and SA and has been average in England. Watch his bowling on day 4 at the Nottingham test in 2018, enough help from the pitch, hardly effective. Was the same story at Centurion in 2018. Sub continent type pitch but Ashwin went missing in the 3rd innings. No 5-ers or match winning performances in SENA across 21 tests is a huge hole in his career. 

 

However, as I said, with his batting ability and control in recent years, he should always be in the 5 bowler attack alongside Jadeja. The strategy failed in WTC finals because Bumrah was totally off color but Clown's prognosis is it failed because he did not have a 4th seamer 

[Gollum]

25 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Your comparison was why was Ponting not dropped in India despite failures but Ashwin gets dropped in SENA.

 

Answer is Ponting struggled only in India. Did well in Pakistan and Sri Lanka, helping his team to series wins in spinning conditions

Spinning conditions? Or pattas?

Quote

Ashwin OTOH has had lots of struggles in Australia and SA and has been average in England.

Most of the pitches in Aus/RSA were anti-spinners, especially before 2015 (2011-15 was worst period for bowlers in those countries with people like Clarke scoring 4 200s in a year, Aus scoring almost 500 in a day against Steyn led RSA). Only Adelaide 2014 was a turner but Karn played that test. On the other pitches especially in Aus, only Warne would have done something, Ashwin isn't Warne that much everyone agrees upon.  

2018 and 2020-21 Ashwin did well in Aus.

Quote

Watch his bowling on day 4 at the Nottingham test in 2018, enough help from the pitch, hardly effective.

Was injured. Kohli played him despite injury. Watch the PCs and press reports from that match. 

Quote

Was the same story at Centurion in 2018. Sub continent type pitch but Ashwin went missing in the 3rd innings.

Set up the match in 1st innings. Could have been a 7 or 8fer if not for dropped catches.

Quote

No 5-ers or match winning performances in SENA across 21 tests is a huge hole in his career. 

5 wicket haul isn't some metric of success. VVS never had a 100 in RSA but doesn't mean he was a passenger. You don't need 100s or 5fers to make your mark, even 70s/80s or 3fers/4fers at important time can be match winning. What is true for Ashwin also holds true for Rohit, his 70s and 80s in SENA can be as important as 100s. 

 

MCG 2020 was a match-winning effort. Opened the match in 1st session itself.

 

Edgbaston 2018 was a pakka match-winning effort in fact MOM worthy, batsmen and slip catchers messed up that effort of his. 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Just like Sachin gets flak for not being a match-winner (unfairly) in the 90s especially, I think our present bunch of bowlers need some leeway. In 90s we lacked bowlers to close out some matches, in the 2010s batsmen have failed to close out some matches thus pouring water on efforts of bowlers. 

[ShoonyaSifar]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Spinning conditions? Or pattas?

Most of the pitches in Aus/RSA were anti-spinners, especially before 2015. Only Adelaide 2014 was a turner but Karn played that test. On the other pitches especially in Aus, only Warne would have done something, Ashwin isn't Warne that much everyone agrees upon.  

2018 and 2020-21 Ashwin did well in Aus.

Was injured. Kohli played him despite injury. Watch the PCs and press reports from that match. 

Set up the match in 1st innings. Could have been a 7 or 8fer if not for dropped catches.

5 wicket haul isn't some metric of success. VVS never had a 100 in RSA but doesn't mean he was a passenger. You don't need 100s or 5fers to make your mark, even 70s/80s or 3fers/4fers at important time can be match winning. What is true for Ashwin also holds true for Rohit, his 70s and 80s in SENA can be as important as 100s. 

 

MCG 2020 was a match-winning effort. Opened the match in 1st session itself.

 

Edgbaston 2018 was a pakka match-winning effort in fact MOM worthy, batsmen and slip catchers messed up that effort of his. 

 

All I read are Ifs and buts. Poor batting poor fielders, injury are all part of the game and can be an reasons for Avery performances for 4-5 tests. 21 tests is a big enough sample. Fact remains he has had no outstanding match winning performances across these 21 tests. Contributed to wins, yes, but despite favorable day 4/5 conditions nothing eye catching yet.

 

The comparison with VVS having no 100s in SA (and England) is apt. Had he done well in those two countries, he would have ended up as a modern day great batsman in the same league as Sachin, Lara, Dravid, Waugh, Ponting. Right now he is in the 2nd tier. 

 

Not sure if Ashwin should be content with being a 2nd tier spinner in SENA.

[Lord]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Ashwin isn't playing first time in England and has done nothing of note.

 

by that logic Rahul shouldnt have played too.Shami too has bad record despite the conditions

 

Ashwin is a much better bowler than past and is in very good form

[G_B_]

There is spin on offer

 

But Jaddu has not been able to make much of an impact apart from holding things.

 

IMO Thakur would have been ideal on this deck. But Ashwin too would have been a good addition. This deck is dry.

[kohli]

1 hour ago, R!TTER said:

McGrath's record in India isn't the best, he doesn't even have a 5er here IIRC. The wrecker In Chief when he played was always Gillespie, Kasper or Clarke/Warne on that last tour in 2004. It isn't bad per se but some of the wickets he got in 2004 were simply disgraceful umpiring especially by that *wit Bowden, like the big inside edge lbw for Sehwag in Bangalore!

McGrath played 8 test in india and took 33 wickets @21. He played 1 test in 1996 when he was new and 3 test in 2001 & 4 test in 2004.

1996  1 test- 2 wk @ 43

2001 3 test-17 wk @15

2004 4test-14 wk @ 25

so he was excellent in 2001 tour & good in 2004 only flop in 1996.

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, G_B_ said:

There is spin on offer

 

But Jaddu has not been able to make much of an impact apart from holding things.

 

IMO Thakur would have been ideal on this deck. But Ashwin too would have been a good addition. This deck is dry.

 

Jadeja is average these days as bowler. Last 2 years bowling performance by India. He had one half decent series vs OZ.

 

[shortbread]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Jadeja is average these days as bowler. Last 2 years bowling performance by India. He had one half decent series vs OZ.

 

Jadejas role is to contain.

[Lord]

big turn from Moeen last over.gonna miss him for sure