Ravindra Jadeja - when will the torture end?

[Ultimate_Game]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Sadly you are correct, I don't think you can blame play player.Selectors are being paid to do the job.

 

They want to play as much as possible.Sachin hung on forever to play 200 plus test and that useless 100th 100.

 

Dhoni parleyed his 2007 t20 win where he did nothing into playing in t20s for 10 plus years and odis 7 + years.

 

Dhoni was one of main reasons why India did not win any icc title before 2024.

 

 

Now that's a bit rich 

 

Dhoni gave up captaincy in 2015-16 and retired in 2019 after leading India to 3 ICC tournies in his prime. And somehow he's the "reason" for not winning ICC titles till 2024 

 

This is even more laughable than Zen keeping score for Pandya. The reason India went a decade without trophy was: 1. Batters (especially Kohli) not showing up at the crunch, and 2. Kohli's poor captaincy and team selection with top heavy teams with no depth.

 

Had Rohit got the captaincy straight after Dhoni, we probably win a couple more titles coz Rohit wouldn't persist with the same 5 batters and 5 specialist bowlers who couldn't hold the bat philosophy.

[vvvslaxman]

5 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

 

Now that's a bit rich 

 

Dhoni gave up captaincy in 2015-16 and retired in 2019 after leading India to 3 ICC tournies in his prime. And somehow he's the "reason" for not winning ICC titles till 2024 

 

This is even more laughable than Zen keeping score for Pandya. The reason India went a decade without trophy was: 1. Batters (especially Kohli) not showing up at the crunch, and 2. Kohli's poor captaincy and team selection with top heavy teams with no depth.

 

Had Rohit got the captaincy straight after Dhoni, we probably win a couple more titles coz Rohit wouldn't persist with the same 5 batters and 5 specialist bowlers who couldn't hold the bat philosophy.

 

Kohli built INdian team much like he built RCB. Top heavy with no attention to lower order. He was okay 4 rank tailenders. When you make a call like that you responsibility becomes that much bigger. Given that none of the top order could bowl We always felt like we were 2 men short. Kohli had no basic knowledge about building a LOI unit. That is why he never won an IPL. 

[Ultimate_Game]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kohli built INdian team much like he built RCB. Top heavy with no attention to lower order. He was okay 4 rank tailenders. When you make a call like that you responsibility becomes that much bigger. Given that none of the top order could bowl We always felt like we were 2 men short. Kohli had no basic knowledge about building a LOI unit. That is why he never won an IPL. 

 

Yup. Loaded his teams with 4 rank tailenders like Chahal who couldn't bat to save their lives. Plus we had Jadeja on top of them. Plus the top order always shyte their pants in knockouts with them back in the dressing room during the PP overs. That left nos. 4 and 5 to do all the heavy-lifting.

 

There's a reason Kohli never won anything as a captain wither in IPL or for Team India. Dhoni used to play batters till no. 7 and 8 and getting folks like Kedar Jadhav to bowl. Kohli went the opposite direction with 5 batters who couldn't bowl a single delivery and 5 bowlers who couldn't hold the bat. And then you have his fanboys blaming Dhoni, bowlers, Bumrah and everyone else for the failure to win anything 

[R!TTER]

15 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Dhoni gave up captaincy in 2015-16 and retired in 2019 after leading India to 3 ICC tournies in his prime. And somehow he's the "reason" for not winning ICC titles till 2024 

Well he's definitely the reason why we lost 2019 SF, although I'd argue BRat shares the blame as well for continuing to select that useless MFer! Also he never retired officially, so you're wrong about that. He had plans to play the 2020 WT20 as well but then Covid happened ending his intl career. He was by far the greediest PoS cap I've ever seen, excluding Azhar who was a fixer.

Edited March 16, 2025 by R!TTER

[Nikhil_cric]

9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kohli built INdian team much like he built RCB. Top heavy with no attention to lower order. He was okay 4 rank tailenders. When you make a call like that you responsibility becomes that much bigger. Given that none of the top order could bowl We always felt like we were 2 men short. Kohli had no basic knowledge about building a LOI unit. That is why he never won an IPL. 

Forget lower order. Batting ended at #3. Didn't even have a #4 

[Adamant]

In the last 9 wins in knockouts of ICC Trophy, Rohit and kohli have been the highest scorer.

2025 CT Semi- Kohli
2025 CT Finals - Rohit
2024 T20 WC finals- Kohli
2024 t20 wc semi - Rohit
2023 WC semi- Kohli
2017 CT Semis - Rohit
2015 WC QF - Rohit
2014 T20 WC Semis- Kohli
2013 CT Finals - Kohli

Even in 2013 CT Semi - Dhawan, a part of our fabulous top 3 was the highest run scorer.

 

The reason for our failure has been a non existent middle order.

The root cause is that our 2013-2017 generation of batsmen has been an utter failure. I will be starting a thread for this topic.

After Rohit Sharma, Dhawan, Kohli, Pujara and Rahane(too some extent) we expected similar great names from the next generation, so that our middle order could be strengthened, but there was no talent, all we had was Karun Nair, Manish Pandey, Sanju Samson and Kl Rahul who despite having talent was a mental midget.

Our 2013-2017 generation of batting talent is easily the worst we have had in the last 30 years, not a single name which went on to become a match winner. After 2017 we got some good talents like Pant, Gill, Jaiswal but the generation before that was a let down. Even Pakistan produced Fakhar Zaman, Babar Azam in those years while we had nothing.

[Ultimate_Game]

6 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Well he's definitely the reason why we lost 2019 SF, although I'd argue BRat shares the blame as well for continuing to select that useless MFer! Also he never retired officially, so you're wrong about that. He had plans to play the 2020 WT20 as well but then Covid happened ending his intl career. He was by far the greediest PoS cap I've ever seen, excluding Azhar who was a fixer.

 

If I've to list the reasons for the 2019 SF, it would be:

 

1. Decision to not play Shami who was in red hot form with 15 wkts in the tourney in just 5 games. And playing that midget Chahal as usual. Kohli's love for Chahal and inexplicably dropping Shami or a pacer has cost us many matches, including WTC Final and a Test against England.

 

2. Top Order Collapse and the failure of the so called stars to show up. We were chasing 239 and all they had to do was stay at the wicket and bat through the opening spell and the match was ours. Instead they crumbled to 5/3. All well and good bagging lower order for the failure but what exactly are the batters for when they don't bowl at all and we had to go with a long tail because of them?

 

3. Batting Pant and Pandya ahead of Dhoni. Once India were 5/3, Kohli and the team management should've sent Dhoni in to bat instead of keeping the same batting order. You can fault Dhoni for a lot of things but he knew how to stick it out in tricky situations. He would've dead batted and saved Pant and Pandya for later. This is on the captain and the coach.

 

4. Dhoni waiting for too late. I guess his plan was to take it to the very end and he may well have done that had he not gotten runout. But he holds the blame for not attacking earlier and then getting out.

 

For me Dhoni is no. 4 on the list. You can blame him all you want but I find it tough to blame him more than the batters who didn't show up at all or who benched a red hot Shami in the SF while going with mental midget Chahal.

 

And even if you blame Dhoni for 2019, the Kohli fanboy is blaming Dhoni for not wining anything till 2024! Now how is that possible when Dhoni was neither the captain or the leading batter since 2015-16. In his prime Dhoni won 3 trophies. Surely, the next generation of stars should be responsible for Team India's performance after that 

Edited March 16, 2025 by Ultimate_Game

[R!TTER]

The entire batting order was structured to suit his style of play - Pants/Pandya(?) threw it away trying to score quick runs, which wouldn't have been needed if MS wasn't waiting in the wings playing almost like a glorified tailender. You might've forgotten it but the *er gave up the Eng game around midway as well, what was the need to even stop trying to chase that game? Then there was that odd one where BK hit a fifty odd chasing a modest total against SL in SL. If you're just remembering the SF in isolation you could make this fly but MS was finished long back - IMO in 2015 itself! He should've retired himself with Yuvraj in 2017, but he didn't & then the whole team had to play quicker because he was not striking it big in the later overs. Maybe you can find me the last game where he hit a quick 50/100 before the WC anytime post 2017 but I bet you can't 

 

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2016 and 31 Dec 2019

Involving the player MS Dhoni (Asia/IND)

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1000

Ordered by batting strike rate (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
KM Jadhav (IND)	2016-2019	57	38	15	1053	120	45.78	1031	102.13	1	6	2	106	19
V Kohli (IND)	2016-2019	67	67	15	4368	160*	84.00	4401	99.25	18	19	2	407	49
S Dhawan (IND)	2016-2019	57	57	4	2493	132*	47.03	2529	98.57	8	12	3	325	30
RG Sharma (IND)	2016-2019	68	68	10	3871	208*	66.74	4000	96.77	19	12	3	363	130
MS Dhoni (IND)	2016-2019	80	61	17	1941	134	44.11	2391	81.17	1	13	3	139	41
AM Rahane (IND)	2016-2018	27	25	1	1010	103	42.08	1276	79.15	1	11	0	98	11

 

So the assumption that he could win it for us in the last 5 over is total BS - he never did that in 2017, on flat decks, not in 2018 Eng series on flat decks & not vs Eng in the same WC on a super flat deck. The only one who could've won us that game was Jadeja & MS just ruined that entire game himself.

Edited March 16, 2025 by R!TTER

[Ultimate_Game]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

In the last 9 wins in knockouts of ICC Trophy, Rohit and kohli have been the highest scorer.

2025 CT Semi- Kohli
2025 CT Finals - Rohit
2024 T20 WC finals- Kohli
2024 t20 wc semi - Rohit
2023 WC semi- Kohli
2017 CT Semis - Rohit
2015 WC QF - Rohit
2014 T20 WC Semis- Kohli
2013 CT Finals - Kohli

Even in 2013 CT Semi - Dhawan, a part of our fabulous top 3 was the highest run scorer.

 

The reason for our failure has been a non existent middle order.

The root cause is that our 2013-2017 generation of batsmen has been an utter failure. I will be starting a thread for this topic.

After Rohit Sharma, Dhawan, Kohli, Pujara and Rahane(too some extent) we expected similar great names from the next generation, so that our middle order could be strengthened, but there was no talent, all we had was Karun Nair, Manish Pandey, Sanju Samson and Kl Rahul who despite having talent was a mental midget.

Our 2013-2017 generation of batting talent is easily the worst we have had in the last 30 years, not a single name which went on to become a match winner. After 2017 we got some good talents like Pant, Gill, Jaiswal but the generation before that was a let down. Even Pakistan produced Fakhar Zaman, Babar Azam in those years while we had nothing.

 

 

The main reason is not the batting talent but change in our team composition philosophy. White-ball cricket always rewards teams with batting depth. Take our wins for instances in 1983 and 1985, which was the first great short-format team we had. That team had a bunch of all-rounders in Amarnath, Madan Lal, Roger Binny, Kapil Dev, Ravi Shastri and batted till 10 as Kirmani used to come in at 10 and he was a decent bat!

 

Dhoni understood that we need to have batting depth and bowling options. When he took over he made sure we had a batter till 7 (Raina or Yusuf Pathan) and someone like Harbhajan who could tonk it at 8. Plus we had likes of Irfan Pathan who was an amazing all-rounder for brief time he was on his A game. He made sure he bowled batters and got overs out of Sehwag, Raina and Yuvraj. In fact Yuvraj went from a part-timer to regularly bowl his quota of 10 overs. And when he didn't have batters who had that skill, he opted for other who were multi-skilled such as Kedar Jadhav. Jadhav was never a bowler and even a part-timer. But Dhoni used to bowl him for 5-6 overs. If you look at Dhoni's teams, including CSK, he always had deep batting lineup.

 

When Kohli took over, he went the other way and followed the RCB approach. He went top order heavy with 5 batters and 5 specialist bowlers who couldn't bat. That left us with a long tail and inability to recover from top order collapses. Just like in RCB where we had Gayle, Kohli, ABDV (or Maxwell, Watson) and then nobody else, Team India became similar with top 4 and then nothing. This approach works well in group stages where there's not that much pressure and you come across a lot of weaker teams & minnows. The top order used to fill their boots and have great stats as you've mentioned. But cometh the knockouts where everything depended on a single game (do or die) and the quality of opposition was better, the top order failed and the team floundered as expected. You can't expect a team with 5 specialist batters and a long tail to recover from a collapse.

 

The same thing which happens with RCB happened with Team India. India became RCB of world cricket with their fortunes depending on top order, and when the top heavy batting lineup faltered, we were done. The knock against Kohli was that he never tried to change his approach. It was not as if we didn't have multi-skilled players, but that he never tried them preferring specialists over part-timers.

 

When Rohit took over in 2021 he understood quickly in an year's time (after 2022 WT20) that India had to play aggressive cricket and can't be cautious. And for that to happen India needed depth coz playing aggressive cricket means that there was a risk of top order faltering in search of quick runs so you needed depth. So he re-jigged the team and brought in depth. He experimented with players like Axar Patel, Sundar, Venky Iyer, Dube etc. and made sure we had depth till 8. I may not like his choice of personnel, e.g., playing Jadeja or preferring Sundar or Dube ahead of likes of Riyan Parag or Rinku, but I can't fault his approach. And we saw the difference immediately with India winning 2 ICC trophies and going 23-1 in the last 3 ICC tournies.

 

The main difference has been addition of players like Axar Patel who gives you that depth. Take out Axar and Dube from Rohit's teams and replace them with a bowler and we lose both the tournies. The difference hasn't been lack of batting quality in Kohli's teams. It's just that he never went for depth when white-ball is more about quantity (batting depth) over quality (specialists). We had Axar Patel when Kohli was around but likes of him never got a look. And Kohli has to take the blame for it. No amount of blaming the other batters can take the blame away from his faulty approach.

[The Realist]

[nevada]

On 3/16/2025 at 1:24 PM, Nikhil_cric said:

Forget lower order. Batting ended at #3. Didn't even have a #4 

He even said something like the team doesn't need a #4. 

[Majestic]

Jadeja disappointed yesterday.  Seems like all these years, he was doing well due to the presence of leaders like Ashwin, Kohli, Rohit. But he had no one to assist him here. He owes India an overseas win now. Disappointed in Aus too last time.

[Chakdephatte]

Played 200 matches as a no. 7 with a strike rate of 86. No century. Let's not even get started with bowling

[helperononline]

He has played so many matched and almost nearing his career end but I don’t remember him finishing a single match for India with his bat in ODI

[Ajju]

18 minutes ago, helperononline said:

He has played so many matched and almost nearing his career end but I don’t remember him finishing a single match for India with his bat in ODI

Technically he finished all the matches for india with the bat

[Laaloo]

Not the first time he ruined a century by a top order batsman

[tapandrun]

Does not have power game to play at 6/7/8, has limited range and can not access off-side that well

[Frustrated]

He is 37 Yr old.   Give him sometime. His power hitting would start once he crosses 40.  

[nitinbwj]

What was really shocking was he didn't even try. Played out 10 overs like someone has out a gun to his head to do Nothing ! KL did the same ****. Both are manhoos ,shady characters and should be thrown out. 

[deepdynamo]

The fact that Jadeja is still in plans for 2027 ODI WC is sickening.