Atleast under MS Dhoni we used to win at home

[Vilander]

top class Dhoni lads..truly important top class contribution there.

 

 

 

[Bigg Brother]

Dont prove how great Dhoni was by undermining other captain.Post some substantial about "mediocre"record of Dhoni..There always pops up new thread or posts on match thread whenever pacers dont pick up wickets about how pace obsessive Kohli is.It is disturbing.

[jusarrived]

17 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

hmm a coaching issue which needs to be raised. Indian batters need to stop throwing it away as they did in the first innings. If this was 2 years ago I would have said they are young. Need more accountability in the middle order. Now we are having 5-6 players with 30 tests or so under their belt.

 

But no point blaming Kohli. Ultimately a captain is as good as his team. You cant polish a turd is a saying. If Indian batsman throw away their wickets neither MSD nor Kohli is to blame....No captain is to blame if we go from 168/1 to 318 all out.

 

I do hope posters can keep apart the team and the captain when judging.  This also goes for the disaster which was 2011 overseas in England and Aus. No Indian captain could have prevented those defeats. It was a collective failure.

Unless the captain has give instructions to score at 7 RPO 

[maniac]

9 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

hmm a coaching issue which needs to be raised. Indian batters need to stop throwing it away as they did in the first innings. If this was 2 years ago I would have said they are young. Need more accountability in the middle order. Now we are having 5-6 players with 30 tests or so under their belt.

 

But no point blaming Kohli. Ultimately a captain is as good as his team. You cant polish a turd is a saying. If Indian batsman throw away their wickets neither MSD nor Kohli is to blame....No captain is to blame if we go from 168/1 to 318 all out.

 

I do hope posters can keep apart the team and the captain when judging.  This also goes for the disaster which was 2011 overseas in England and Aus. No Indian captain could have prevented those defeats. It was a collective failure.

Fair enough.....on the England tour- can't blame the captain for the injuries of Sehwag,Gambhir,Zak,Bhajji,Yuvi,the brainless bowling of Ishant and Sreesanth,greats like SRT and Laxman  hitting a rough patch,dropping catches at crucial junctures or even the infamous Ian Bell recall which was a collective decision...all those factors would have been enough to result in a disastrous whitewash even if we had the best strategist and motivator of a captain.

 

However there were some mistakes done by the captain too like

the wicketkeeper(himself),he would start bowling on the first day of the first test which was according to me was the moment the opponent was handed the momentum and series was lost. that act showed we just did not have the bowling resources to hold up one end or we did not have faith in the rest. 

 

Replacing an injured bowler with an over-the hill and out of shape RP Singh-It is well documented that it was MSD who fought for his inclusion even threatening to quit. 

 

His bizarre field placings and bowling changes.

 

Despite all these,the disastrous tour was not when MSD was under the scanner because clearly the above mentioned factors out of his control like injuries,rough patches and management decisions far out weighed his mistakes.

 

When these kind of mistakes were repeated again and again in consecutive tours is when he was rightfully judged as a poor test captain.

[G_B_]

@maniac

 

legitimate points. Made a bad situ worse. 

[express bowling]

A captain cannot do really well without a good team and a good team cannot do sufficiently well without a good captain.

 

That is why, really good captains try to build good teams by picking proper players and mentoring them.

[New guy]

Good captains think about building resources and strategy for long term, not short term

[maniac]

Just now, New guy said:

Good captains think about building resources and strategy for long term, not short term

Agree......people say that Aron,Shami and Yadav got chances under MSD but the difference is to play someone to try and prove a point to show how useless they are like calling them brainless and highlight their off bad performance or actually grooming them utilizing their strengths like in case of Aaron and Yadav which was the rare quality of an Indian bowler to hit 150K's.

 

Here is the list of fast bowlers under Dhoni and how they were utilized and ruined

 

Sreeshanth-Personal Vendetta and constant ridicule

Irfan-See above

RP Singh-Providing him with false sense of security and not asking him to work on his flaws and motivate him.

Ishant-See above

Zak-Over working your best bowler to the dust by shying away from responsibility and giving him your task of field settings etc with stupid names like bowling captain,mentor etc

Bhuvi and PK-Over working your then in form bowler to the dust 

Aaron and Yadav-waiting for that failure to show the world I told you so to dent their confidence,never believing in them,not grooming them or giving them advice when required,setting them up for failure

Pankaj SIngh and Vinay Kumar-Opposite of what he did with Aaron and Yadav showing the world as to how nice he is and how he motivates players with a clear lack of ability and gives them a fair run.....they get the expected failure while you can walk away with the PR.

 

 

 

 

[New guy]

Agree @maniac. Sreesanth was a maverick and maybe with some screws loose, but am sure Kohli could have got a bit more out of him after he proved himself in SA

[velu]

1 hour ago, New guy said:

Agree @maniac. Sreesanth was a maverick and maybe with some screws loose, but am sure Kohli could have got a bit more out of him after he proved himself in SA

hindsight is always 20/20 ..

anyway we have got yadav and aaron in the team and lets see how kohli utilizes them

[velu]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

Agree......people say that Aron,Shami and Yadav got chances under MSD but the difference is to play someone to try and prove a point to show how useless they are like calling them brainless and highlight their off bad performance or actually grooming them utilizing their strengths like in case of Aaron and Yadav which was the rare quality of an Indian bowler to hit 150K's.

 

Here is the list of fast bowlers under Dhoni and how they were utilized and ruined

 

Sreeshanth-Personal Vendetta and constant ridicule

Irfan-See above

RP Singh-Providing him with false sense of security and not asking him to work on his flaws and motivate him.

Ishant-See above

Zak-Over working your best bowler to the dust by shying away from responsibility and giving him your task of field settings etc with stupid names like bowling captain,mentor etc

Bhuvi and PK-Over working your then in form bowler to the dust 

Aaron and Yadav-waiting for that failure to show the world I told you so to dent their confidence,never believing in them,not grooming them or giving them advice when required,setting them up for failure

Pankaj SIngh and Vinay Kumar-Opposite of what he did with Aaron and Yadav showing the world as to how nice he is and how he motivates players with a clear lack of ability and gives them a fair run.....they get the expected failure while you can walk away with the PR.

 

 

 

 

 

dude .. are you saying msd screwed ishu by making him lazy ??

 

[velu]

2 hours ago, New guy said:

Good captains think about building resources and strategy for long term, not short term

i think you are mixing selectors with captain 

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by velu

[maniac]

5 minutes ago, velu said:

 

dude .. are you saying msd screwed ishu by making him lazy ??

 

Yes....Young Ishu was searching for answers,he coached himself trying to imitate Zak to see what is not working...where was MSD then?

 

Well MSD was pro-active enough to take "credit" for the lord's win and snatch it away from Ishant but why doesn't he take the blame when Ishant was struggling prior to that?

[velu]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

Yes....Young Ishu was searching for answers,he coached himself trying to imitate Zak to see what is not working...where was MSD then?

 

Well MSD was pro-active enough to take "credit" for the lord's win and snatch it away from Ishant but why doesn't he take the blame when Ishant was struggling prior to that?

 

always knew ishu is hollow bit upstairs .. needs someone else ka input to guide him

 

[mancalledsting]

MSD in tests- as a batsmen excellent record in India, average to horrible overseas 

.                      As a WK- excellent catching off seamers, dropped a lot off spinners 

.                      As a captain- excellent at home apart from the England 2012 series 

.                                            Horrible overseas- mainly because he was clueless about setting fields to pace bowling 

 

[The Realist]

7 hours ago, maniac said:

Fair enough.....on the England tour- can't blame the captain for the injuries of Sehwag,Gambhir,Zak,Bhajji,Yuvi,the brainless bowling of Ishant and Sreesanth,greats like SRT and Laxman  hitting a rough patch,dropping catches at crucial junctures or even the infamous Ian Bell recall which was a collective decision...all those factors would have been enough to result in a disastrous whitewash even if we had the best strategist and motivator of a captain.

 

However there were some mistakes done by the captain too like

the wicketkeeper(himself),he would start bowling on the first day of the first test which was according to me was the moment the opponent was handed the momentum and series was lost. that act showed we just did not have the bowling resources to hold up one end or we did not have faith in the rest. 

 

Replacing an injured bowler with an over-the hill and out of shape RP Singh-It is well documented that it was MSD who fought for his inclusion even threatening to quit. 

 

His bizarre field placings and bowling changes.

 

Despite all these,the disastrous tour was not when MSD was under the scanner because clearly the above mentioned factors out of his control like injuries,rough patches and management decisions far out weighed his mistakes.

 

When these kind of mistakes were repeated again and again in consecutive tours is when he was rightfully judged as a poor test captain.

That has to be one of the WORST decisions made on a test tour, ever.

 

RP Singh was sunning himself on Miami beach and then out of the blue receives a call up to play in a very tough tour to Eng having played zero warm up games. He arrived in Eng out of shape with a belly and struggled to even bowl trundler pace. Embarrassing and all thanks to Dhoni and his ego.

 

 

"As RP Singh sprayed five out of his first six deliveries onto, or sometimes behind, England's openers' pads, at a pace that made it inappropriate to term him a fast bowler, people began to wonder if this was joke. On match-day eve, MS Dhoni said India were not desperate, or thinking about winning or avoiding defeat at any cost. The way they started today, it seemed they were desperate to avoid playing at any cost."

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2011/content/story/528300.html

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by The Realist

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, velu said:

 

always knew ishu is hollow bit upstairs .. needs someone else ka input to guide him

 

Wasim Akram the legend himself says that in his early days he needed Imran Khan long on and off for guidance. After every ball, he would go towards Imran to ask what to bowl.

[Texan]

14 hours ago, G_B_ said:

hmm a coaching issue which needs to be raised. Indian batters need to stop throwing it away as they did in the first innings. If this was 2 years ago I would have said they are young. Need more accountability in the middle order. Now we are having 5-6 players with 30 tests or so under their belt.

 

But no point blaming Kohli. Ultimately a captain is as good as his team. You cant polish a turd is a saying. If Indian batsman throw away their wickets neither MSD nor Kohli is to blame....No captain is to blame if we go from 168/1 to 318 all out.

 

I do hope posters can keep apart the team and the captain when judging.  This also goes for the disaster which was 2011 overseas in England and Aus. No Indian captain could have prevented those defeats. It was a collective failure.

Respectfully disagree.

 

I am not saying that a captain could have avoided those defeats, but at least could have tried changing a strategy that was not working. Game after game, defeat after defeat, Dhoni refused to change anything about his strategy or team composition. He had two reserve batsmen in Rahane and Rohit in Aus and yet he let his miserable batting order fail time and again and not even considered giving one of these batsmen a game. I am fine if a captain genuinely learns from a mistake and adapts and tries a different plan when one is not working, but adhering to a specific process time and again even when said process is earning disastrous results and even justifying said process as being superior to any results is a bunch of bullsh!t. For that alone, Dhoni deserved to be fired...!!

 

[philcric]

47 minutes ago, Texan said:

Respectfully disagree.

 

I am not saying that a captain could have avoided those defeats, but at least could have tried changing a strategy that was not working. Game after game, defeat after defeat, Dhoni refused to change anything about his strategy or team composition. He had two reserve batsmen in Rahane and Rohit in Aus and yet he let his miserable batting order fail time and again and not even considered giving one of these batsmen a game. I am fine if a captain genuinely learns from a mistake and adapts and tries a different plan when one is not working, but adhering to a specific process time and again even when said process is earning disastrous results and even justifying said process as being superior to any results is a bunch of bullsh!t. For that alone, Dhoni deserved to be fired...!!

 

This.

 

[mancalledsting]

Elephant in room is 2011 WC followed immediately by IPL

 

Sehwag had huge shoulder problems and delayed surgery never the same again 

Gauti, Sachin also took time off following IPL and bunked Windies series 

 

players over worked, tired and de skilled for tests 

Ageing legends in dravid, srt and vvs

 

No prior planning and hence no earlier utilisation of youth eg pujara, Rahane, rohit