cricketfan28 Posted September 29, 2019 Posted September 29, 2019 7 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Marketing is working overtime to ensure that narrative is built completely. its unfair but funny.
Tibarn Posted September 29, 2019 Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, New guy said: You have no idea what pant has achieved in tests do you? Sure I do, I follow India's Test team avidly. Quote Laxman has 0 100s in England in his entire career. Dravid and schwag have 1 in Australia in their entire career. Pant already has 1 each in both countries in his first tours there. Nice stat, too bad it doesn't address what I said in either of my posts. You realize I already said Pant is likely a superior batsman to Saha, yes? Literally from my first post in this thread below. Quote If Saha beats Pant out in the nets, then why not? Saha is a better keeper, but Pant seems to be a better Batsman. In India, we have both Ashwin and Jaddu likely to play; that's basically 2 allrounders in Indian conditions. Our tail would only be 2 long, whoever the two pacers are. Arguably we get more value from Saha's keeping than Pant's superior batting. Unfortunately, rather than reading someone's post and responding like a rational human-being to arguments that person actually makes, you resort to vomiting irrelevant drivel in your blind rage. 10 hours ago, New guy said: So yes, if you were objective you would be laughing along with us at the suggestion of replacing him. No, if I were objective, I would see that there is an argument for Saha to play over Pant, just like there are arguments for Pant over Saha. Luckily, that was the crux of my post. You are just too reading comprehension challenged to understand that. No thanks, I don't prefer joining bandwagons. I will praise Pant when he performs well and will criticize him when he does poorly. The same with any player. Quote Not to mention his keeping is almost impeccable now. His keeping is improving but it is currently worse than Saha's. Saha is one of the top WKs in the world in terms of pure keeping ability, IMO. That is the reason he is being considered for this series. No more, no less. 10 hours ago, New guy said: But instead of sticking with this immensely talented guy your suggestion is drop him for no reason. This is called a strawman. Can you try actually reading people's posts and address what they actually say instead of attacking strawmen? That is apparently too hard for you, so I am apparently expecting too much. I never said to drop Pant. I said there is an argument for Saha to play it. I am personally neutral to which our two keepers plays in this series. I can see the merits and demerits of both. This is why I consider you a blind-fanboy. The mere statement that an argument exists is translated by your brain as "OMG Pant sux,, drOp Him 4eva" The argument centers around Saha's superior keeping adding more value than Pant's superior batting in this series vs SA at home. Is it really so out of the realm of possibility that Saha's superior keeping could help India win the upcoming series more than Pant's superior batting? You do realize that the main point of playing Test matches is to win the matches especially in series like these which are part of the World Test Championship, correct? Edited September 29, 2019 by Tibarn Moochad, Vilander, retired_hurt and 1 other 1 3
express bowling Posted September 29, 2019 Posted September 29, 2019 What is the current condition of Pant's keeping against spin bowling on a turning track. ? This should be the biggest deciding factor. Vilander, The Dark Horse, nevada and 1 other 4
New guy Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, Tibarn said: Sure I do, I follow India's Test team avidly. Nice stat, too bad it doesn't address what I said in either of my posts. You realize I already said Pant is likely a superior batsman to Saha, yes? Literally from my first post in this thread below. Unfortunately, rather than reading someone's post and responding like a rational human-being to arguments that person actually makes, you resort to vomiting irrelevant drivel in your blind rage. No, if I were objective, I would see that there is an argument for Saha to play over Pant, just like there are arguments for Pant over Saha. Luckily, that was the crux of my post. You are just too reading comprehension challenged to understand that. No thanks, I don't prefer joining bandwagons. I will praise Pant when he performs well and will criticize him when he does poorly. The same with any player. His keeping is improving but it is currently worse than Saha's. Saha is one of the top WKs in the world in terms of pure keeping ability, IMO. That is the reason he is being considered for this series. No more, no less. This is called a strawman. Can you try actually reading people's posts and address what they actually say instead of attacking strawmen? That is apparently too hard for you, so I am apparently expecting too much. I never said to drop Pant. I said there is an argument for Saha to play it. I am personally neutral to which our two keepers plays in this series. I can see the merits and demerits of both. This is why I consider you a blind-fanboy. The mere statement that an argument exists is translated by your brain as "OMG Pant sux,, drOp Him 4eva" The argument centers around Saha's superior keeping adding more value than Pant's superior batting in this series vs SA at home. Is it really so out of the realm of possibility that Saha's superior keeping could help India win the upcoming series more than Pant's superior batting? You do realize that the main point of playing Test matches is to win the matches especially in series like these which are part of the World Test Championship, correct? No, no, you still do not understand the significance of that stat. That guys has achieved as much as Dravid, Sehwag and more than Laxman in his first overseas series. That is more than just being a decent batsman, that is at a level where the likes of England, australia, etc will die to support such a young talent and bend over backwards to do it. Don't pretend that's just being better than Saha. Look at how england and Australia do anything to accommodate young talents like Stokes, Baristow, Archer, etc in whatever format in whatever way. they have overlooked poor keepers saying they will improve and Pant is a better keeper than the likes of Baristow any day. And your solution is to drop such a once in a lifetime talent just because? And once again calling Pant just a superior batsman is ridiculous, he is way beyond that. And he is not much inferior to Saha in keeping either so you are being completely disingenuous And of course once again you show the really stupid short term thinking where you think a once in a lifetime talent should be discouraged and dropped just based on mental gymnastics and semantics. Seeing such management and such fans is anyone surprised that despite having really superior team in history, we are constantly underachieving while teams like England and Australia which plan long term have better results in long term while we are satisfied with short term achievements and will always be. It also displays the mentality of India as a nation vs nations which plan long term to win world cups and test championships. This is why we will continue to win bilaterals but choke in world cups and world test championships because we have zero long term plans, players without backing and confidence and chopping and changing just for the sake of it Edited September 30, 2019 by New guy
Tibarn Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 5 hours ago, New guy said: No, no, you still do not understand the significance of that stat. That guys has achieved as much as Dravid, Sehwag and more than Laxman in his first overseas series. That is more than just being a decent batsman, that is at a level where the likes of England, australia, etc will die to support such a young talent and bend over backwards to do it. Don't pretend that's just being better than Saha. Look at how england and Australia do anything to accommodate young talents like Stokes, Baristow, Archer, etc in whatever format in whatever way. they have overlooked poor keepers saying they will improve and Pant is a better keeper than the likes of Baristow any day. And your solution is to drop such a once in a lifetime talent just because? Please carry on attacking arguments I didn't make, if that makes you feel better/helps you save face. Those stats don't say that at all. Those stats say that Pant scored 2 centuries, one in England and one in Australia. The reality is this: stats for the first 3 overseas series for each player you mentioned: Rahul Dravid: in Eng 62.33; in SA 55.4; in WI 72; http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28114.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series Series averages Series Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s Start Date Winner India in England Test Series, 1996 2 3 0 187 95 62.33 437 42.79 0 2 0 19 0 20 Jun 1996 England Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 1996/97 1 1 0 40 40 40.00 64 62.50 0 0 0 5 0 10 Oct 1996 India South Africa in India Test Series, 1996/97 3 6 0 175 56 29.16 568 30.80 0 1 0 24 0 20 Nov 1996 India India in South Africa Test Series, 1996/97 3 6 1 277 148 55.40 693 39.97 1 1 0 38 0 26 Dec 1996 South Africa India in West Indies Test Series, 1996/97 5 7 2 360 92 72.00 1137 31.66 0 4 0 33 1 6 Mar 1997 West Indies VVS Laxman: in SA 40; in WI 28,66; in Austrailia 36.83 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30750.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series Series averages Series Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s Start Date Winner South Africa in India Test Series, 1996/97 2 4 0 77 51 19.25 208 37.01 0 1 0 9 0 20 Nov 1996 India India in South Africa Test Series, 1996/97 2 3 2 40 35* 40.00 136 29.41 0 0 0 5 0 2 Jan 1997 South Africa India in West Indies Test Series, 1996/97 4 6 0 172 64 28.66 467 36.83 0 2 1 15 0 6 Mar 1997 West Indies Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 1997/98 2 3 0 116 95 38.66 226 51.32 0 1 0 19 0 18 Mar 1998 India Pakistan in India Test Series, 1998/99 2 4 0 66 35 16.50 160 41.25 0 0 1 11 0 28 Jan 1999 drawn Asian Test Championship (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka in Bangladesh/India/Pakistan/Sri Lanka), 1998/99 2 4 0 108 67 27.00 225 48.00 0 1 0 15 0 16 Feb 1999 Pakistan Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 1999/00 3 6 0 221 167 36.83 380 58.15 1 0 1 31 0 10 Dec 1999 Australia South Africa in India Test Series, 1999/00 1 2 0 16 16 8.00 54 29.62 0 0 1 3 0 24 Feb 2000 South Africa Sehwag: In SA 49.66; in England 39.5; in NZ 10. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series Series averages Series Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s Start Date Winner India in South Africa Test Series, 2001/02 2 3 0 149 105 49.66 238 62.60 1 0 0 28 0 3 Nov 2001 South Africa England in India Test Series, 2001/02 2 2 0 86 66 43.00 122 70.49 0 1 0 15 1 11 Dec 2001 India Zimbabwe in India Test Series, 2001/02 1 1 0 74 74 74.00 118 62.71 0 1 0 16 0 28 Feb 2002 India India in England Test Series, 2002 4 6 0 237 106 39.50 356 66.57 1 1 1 36 1 25 Jul 2002 drawn West Indies in India Test Series, 2002/03 3 5 0 286 147 57.20 343 83.38 1 1 0 43 8 9 Oct 2002 India India in New Zealand Test Series, 2002/03 2 4 0 40 25 10.00 60 66.66 0 0 0 6 0 12 Dec 2002 New Zealand New Zealand in India Test Series, 2003/04 2 4 0 177 130 44.25 293 60.40 1 0 0 20 3 8 Oct 2003 drawn Pant, first 3 overseas series averages: England 27; Australia 58.33; WI 19.33 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/931581.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series Series averages Series Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s Start Date Winner Pataudi Trophy (India in England), 2018 3 6 0 162 114 27.00 252 64.28 1 0 1 20 6 18 Aug 2018 England West Indies in India Test Series, 2018/19 2 2 0 184 92 92.00 218 84.40 0 2 0 19 6 4 Oct 2018 India Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia), 2018/19 4 7 1 350 159* 58.33 473 73.99 1 0 0 31 5 6 Dec 2018 India ICC World Test Championship, 2019-2021 2 3 0 58 27 19.33 122 47.54 0 0 0 6 1 22 Aug 2019 drawn India in West Indies Test Series, 2019 2 3 0 58 27 19.33 122 47.54 0 0 0 6 1 22 Aug 2019 India Pants performances have been comparable to VVS, but Sehwag had arguably better performances when considering his batting position. Rahul Dravid's performances were in another stratosphere than Pant's, so if Pant is a once in a lifetime talent, Dravid must have been a once in a millennium talent. 5 hours ago, New guy said: And once again calling Pant just a superior batsman is ridiculous, he is way beyond that. Pump the breaks on the hype train: it's not like Pant averages 60 while Saha averages 20. There is less than a 14 run difference in their averages. Saha's http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/279810.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s overall 2010-2018 32 46 8 1164 117 30.63 2610 44.59 3 5 6 108 12 Pant http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/931581.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting Career averages Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s overall 11 18 1 754 159* 44.35 1065 70.79 2 2 1 76 18 Quote And he is not much inferior to Saha in keeping either so you are being completely disingenuous That is in your biased eyes. The fact that the team management sees the gap as big enough to consider including Saha over a "once in a lifetime" speaks volumes toward what they consider the actual size of the gap to be. In the end ICFers, including myself, are all armchair experts. 6 hours ago, New guy said: And of course once again you show the really stupid short term thinking where you think a once in a lifetime talent should be discouraged and dropped just based on mental gymnastics and semantics. Sure dude, you have convinced me, Pant is a "once in a lifetime talent" he should walk into the side. The main goal of the team should not be to pick whoever helps India win the upcoming series, but it should be to develop Pant instead. I Now, stop bothering me. Moochad 1
ShoonyaSifar Posted September 30, 2019 Author Posted September 30, 2019 Err difference of 14 points in batting averages on a base of 30 translates to ~+45%. So Pant is nearly one and a half times the batsman Saha has been! As for the argument on winning, we have won 17 of Saha’s 32 tests, ~53%. For Pant that number is 7 of 11 tests, ~63%. In India, 11/18 tests, 67% for Saha, 2/2 for Pant. Batting average of 31 for Saha at home, 92 for Pant. Pant’s sample is small but we are comparing Saha vs Pant, so take a look at all the stats. Will not even go into their keeping records, Saha will look embarrassingly poor. Come again, with whom do we have a better chance of winning? Vilander and New guy 2
Vilander Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) On 9/27/2019 at 9:59 AM, New guy said: Pant had two similar catches in the last test match he played dude come on..i also want Pant to play. But i think Saha is the best WK in India in terms of Wk skill purely. Edited September 30, 2019 by Vilander express bowling 1
Vilander Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 On 9/28/2019 at 8:50 AM, Tibarn said: This is called a false equivalency. Kohli is one of the handful of best batsmen in the world in the Test format. Pant is a relatively new player who has shown potential in the format, particularly with the bat, but he has a legitimate competitor for the same playing position to him in the short term: Saha. Rohit is pretty much a non-entity and under-performer in Tests for his whole career, but seems to be a favorite of the current selection committee. What kind of logic is it to judge Kohli by the same standard to the latter two. If Rohit is outperformed in the nets by both Gill and Agarwal, why shouldn't the latter two play over him? None of the 3 opening options are well established in the format. None of the 3 really walk into the side based on past performances Let me guess, you want to arbitrarily pick which two of the three to play based on who you like more... I like people try to justify their newfound fanboyism for one player by projecting it as some great forward-thinking plan. The mere mention of the possibility of another player having a legitimate case for being the playing XI over their new object of obsession invokes such fury. Just because some of you guys found a new player to be obsessed over, doesn't mean that all challengers for that one spot in the side are permanently put on the back-burner. There are perfectly sensible reasons for Saha to get consideration over Pant for the SA Test series. If team management decides that Saha, who was the first-choice keeper before he got injured, should play, he will play. If Saha disappoints, then feel free to jump on his selection to your heart's content and talk about how moronic "Bevada" and "Rat" were. PSA to Pant-fanboys: kindly spare me your fanboy-rage and engage me when you can think objectively about players and tell me why Saha shouldn't even be considered for a spot in the playing XI. I'm not interested in unnecessarily having to criticize Pant, who I think has the potential to be an all format, first-choice keeper for India. Just over all astute post and clear communication. Well done.
Vilander Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 On 9/27/2019 at 9:59 AM, New guy said: Pant had two similar catches in the last test match he played interesting, share it. One area i wish he shows improvement is keeping to spinners, and hope he does that then he fixes this spot for few years and bats solidly. express bowling 1
Tibarn Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) Now I am being compelled to poke holes in parts of Pant's record... Unfortunately, some people are persistent... A 2 part post, Part 1 will address the ridiculous arguments presented above, as well as holes in Pant's record thus far Part 2 will show why Saha, assuming he has superior keeping skills, could be more valuable for the upcoming series vs SA. Quote Err difference of 14 points in batting averages on a base of 30 translates to ~+45%. So Pant is nearly one and a half times the batsman Saha has been! One can manipulate the stats however one wants, to come to all sorts of bizarre conclusions, examples: Pant averages <14 more than Saha--> Conclusion 1: Pant is 1.5 times the batsman Saha is Batsman A averages 57.4 Batsman B averages 53.78 --> Conclusion 2: Batsman A is 1.07 times the batsman Batsman B is Batsman B averages 53.78 Batsman C averages 99.94 --> Conclusion 3: Batsman C is 1.86 times the batsman Batsman B is. (Hint: Batsman A is Sanga, B is Sachin, and C is Bradman ). I hope all who endorse Conclusion 1, also endorse Conclusions 2 and 3, since they are based on the same logic and math. One can't accept one without accepting the other two. There is no need for statistical manipulation and ridiculous conclusions to argue that Pant is a better batsman than Saha. Everyone already agrees to that and that wasn't the argument, but I guess I shouldn't expect much else... The difference between the batting averages are <14 runs. Test cricket is scored in runs. Quote As for the argument on winning, we have won 17 of Saha’s 32 tests, ~53%. For Pant that number is 7 of 11 tests, ~63%. In India, 11/18 tests, 67% for Saha, 2/2 for Pant. Batting average of 31 for Saha at home, 92 for Pant. Pant’s sample is small but we are comparing Saha vs Pant, so take a look at all the stats. Will not even go into their keeping records, Saha will look embarrassingly poor. More statistical manipulation here to come to another bizarre conclusions: that Pant is responsible for India having a 63% winning percentage when he plays(in comparison to 53% for Saha. ) I'm sure there are not 10 other players on the team, and 11 on the other team, which could have played a factor here. It all comes down to the WK Off course, if we apply the same logic Pant fans do above to give him credit for wins, we can come to some other interesting conclusions. Let's take a deeper dive shall we?: Saha (W-L-D) 17-6-9 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/279810.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting won match 2015-2017 17 24 7 685 106* 40.29 1460 46.91 2 4 2 63 7 lost match 2010-2018 6 12 0 187 60 15.58 469 39.87 0 1 3 17 3 drawn match 2015-2017 9 10 1 292 117 32.44 681 42.87 1 0 1 28 2 Losses = 6/32 = 18.75% Pant (W-L-D) 7-3-1 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/931581.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting won match 7 11 0 392 92 35.63 570 68.77 0 2 0 39 11 lost match 3 6 0 203 114 33.83 306 66.33 1 0 1 22 6 drawn match 1 1 1 159 159* - 189 84.12 1 0 0 15 1 Losses 3/11 = 27.3% FYI, here are Dhoni's stats! won match 2005-2014 36 51 9 2033 224 48.40 3209 63.35 4 12 2 199 44 lost match 2006-2014 24 48 2 1252 90 27.21 2314 54.10 0 10 5 180 10 drawn match 2005-2014 30 45 5 1591 148 39.77 2726 58.36 2 11 3 165 24 Losses 24/90 = 26.7 % By Pant fans' logic: Pant is responsible for almost ~9% more losses when he plays than Saha, and Pant causes India to have more losses than even when Dhoni was keeper!!! Since the upcoming series is part of the World Test Championship, and teams get points for both Wins and Draws: Saha would get India points 81.25% of the time Pant would get India points only 62.7% of the time That is almost a 20% difference! People should realize that assigning the W-D-L record to the keepers is ridiculous. WKs are 1 of 22 players who have an impact on the result of the game. But wait! Let's looks again at Pant's contribution to wins that these Pant fans want us to credit to his performance, and compare it to Saha's Saha (W-L-D) 17-6-9 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/931581.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting won match 2015-2017 17 24 7 685 106* 40.29 1460 46.91 2 4 2 63 7 lost match 2010-2018 6 12 0 187 60 15.58 469 39.87 0 1 3 17 3 drawn match 2015-2017 9 10 1 292 117 32.44 681 42.87 1 0 1 28 2 Pant (W-L-D) 7-3-1 won match 7 11 0 392 92 35.63 570 68.77 0 2 0 39 11 lost match 3 6 0 203 114 33.83 306 66.33 1 0 1 22 6 drawn match 1 1 1 159 159* - 189 84.12 1 0 0 15 1 Saha actually averages more in wins than Pant does, so Saha has had a greater performance than Pant in the actual wins they were a part of! (Saha also does worse when India loses, but again, we all already know/agree he is a worse batsman than Pant). Pant's average in wins is 35.6 and 33.8 in losses, his scores haven't actually contributed much to wins as of yet. In fact, his overall average only jumps up to 44 because he scored a 159* in the Drawn 4th Test at Sydney, Australia. In that innings, we scored over 600 runs. Scorecard: Are Pant fans seriously trying to pass off a 35 average in wins as the deciding factor in those 63% of matches we won when he was playing. Pant wills his team to victory by averaging a monstrous 35.66? Let me guess, the Wins were due to Pant, but the Losses were due to "Rat" or "Bevada". Also Dhoni must also be at fault here for something. That bastard and his marketing team are always up to something Quote Will not even go into their keeping records, Saha will look embarrassingly poor. Here we have it: Saha has an embarrassingly poor keeping record. If I am guessing correctly, these statsguru stats are the basis of this statement: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=1;template=results;type=fielding http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=1;template=results;type=fielding http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/931581.html?class=1;template=results;type=fielding Saha Career averages Span Mat Inns Dis Ct St Ct Wk Ct Fi MD D/I overall 2010-2018 32 61 85 75 10 75 0 6 (5ct 1st) 1.393 Pant Career averages Mat Inns Dis Ct St Ct Wk Ct Fi MD D/I overall 11 22 53 51 2 51 0 6 (6ct 0st) 2.409 Dhoni Career averages Span Mat Inns Dis Ct St Ct Wk Ct Fi MD D/I overall 2005-2014 90 166 294 256 38 256 0 6 (6ct 0st) 1.771 If someone really thinks D/I is the basis of who is or isn't a better WK, then I don't really know what to say. It is futile to address such statements so out of touch with reality. Remove Pant from the equation here. Dhoni also has a better D/I than Saha. Does anyone seriously think that MSD was a better WK than Saha? I mean MSD is one of my top 5 favorite Indian players, and I surely am not going to say that. The reality is that there aren't good stats to describe a WK's ability. D/I is dependent on many variable and can actually favor an unathletic, limited keeper over one with more keeping range. However, the fact that India's team management is even considering playing Saha over Pant, a young player with plenty of potential and who has shown to be a better batsman than Saha, for this series, tells you all you need to know about the keeping ability difference between the two. If Saha didn't have a significant gap between his keeping ability to that of Pant's, he would have already been placed on the backburner permanently already. As the gap closes, Saha will stop being an option. End of Part 1 Edited September 30, 2019 by Tibarn express bowling and Moochad 1 1
Tibarn Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) Part 2 Why Saha can be considered for the upcoming home series vs SA Quote In India, we have both Ashwin and Jaddu likely to play; that's basically 2 allrounders in Indian conditions. Our tail would only be 2 long, whoever the two pacers are. Arguably we get more value from Saha's keeping than Pant's superior batting. The thought process/math goes like this: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=4;host=5;host=6;host=7;host=8;orderby=matches;spanmax1=01+Oct+2019;spanmin1=01+Oct+2009;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=aggregate http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=4;host=5;host=6;host=7;host=8;orderby=matches;spanmax1=01+Oct+2019;spanmax2=01+Oct+2019;spanmin1=01+Oct+2009;spanmin2=01+Oct+2014;spanval1=span;spanval2=span;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=aggregate The average Test score last 10 years 324.57 The average Test score last 5 years 324.5 Our Playing XI as of current plans/recent selections *(Outside of Bhuvi, there isn't much batting ability for our pacers. Their averages are negligible home or away, so I will mark them the same for both places at 10) *(I have to make up an opening average for Rohit, since he hasn't opened in Tests before. Let's use his away average for both) *(Agarwal and Vihari have no home stats, so I will use their away stats here) Away (averages) Rohit (26.32) Agarwal(39.28) Pujara(39.12) Kohli(46.12) Rahane(46.76) Vihari(45.6) () Jadeja(30.38) Pacer(10) Pacer(10) Pacer(10) *Saha 30.63 *Pant 44.35 The average Test score last 10 years = 324.57 The average Test score last 5 years = 324.5 India Average Total(Away)(w/out WK) = 303.58 + Saha = 334.21 + Pant = 347.93 Away from home, without a keeper we average ~(-)21 less runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)9 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)23 more runs than the average Test score Home Rohit (26.32) Agarwal(39.28) Pujara(61.86) Kohli(64.68) Rahane(34.54) Vihari(45.6) WK() Jadeja(34.14) Ashwin(29.8) Pacer(10) Pacer(10) *Saha 30.63 *Pant 44.35 The average Test score last 10 years = 324.57 The average Test score last 5 years = 324.5 India Average Total(Home)(w/out WK)= 356.22 + Saha = 386.85 + Pant = 400.57 At home, without a keeper we average ~(+)32 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)62 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)76 more runs than the average Test score Difference(Home-Away) 1. 0 2. 0 3. +22.74 4. +18.56 5. -12.22 6. 0 7. 0 8. +3.76 9. +19.8 10. 0 11. 0 Total = + 52.64 difference home vs away Pant vs Saha difference = Pant + 13.72 Summary Away from home, without a keeper we average ~(-)21 less runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)9 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)23 more runs than the average Test score At home, without a keeper we average ~(+)32 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)62 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)76 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, Pant's extra and superior batting is the difference between a a marginally above par score and a solidly above par score. The difference between 9 and 23 runs above par is fairly significant, almost the equivalent of an extra number 9 batsman. At home, we would post above par scores even if we played with only 9 wickets. Our average is 350 with just 10 players. The numbers from above are a worst case scenario in the case of our home performance, where players like Vihari, Agarwal, or Rohit don't have a superior average at home than away. Even adding 3(like Jadeja's batting bump playing at home) to each of their averages at home would mean even without a keeper, we would score upwards of 360, and the number gets significantly higher if we accept that Indian players are significantly better at home, barring Rahane, where averages at home can easily be above 5. The difference between the score posted if we played Saha vs Pant is 62 above par vs 76 above par. Shown again below + Saha = 386.85 + Pant = 400.57 Either one we play, we are at minimum 62 above par. This is why I suggested that Pant's superior batting provides diminishing returns for the upcoming series. It is a home series and our home batting lineup is outstanding. (Imagine if we replaced Rahane with a more competent player in home conditions, as Rahane averages over 12 less at home than away!). At that level of scoring, if we could sacrifice 13.72 runs for a better keeping option who could make the spinners and pacers more dangerous and prevent byes, why wouldn't we? 386.85 runs is more than enough for a score in most cases for our bowlers to bowl-out the opposition at home. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The question arises on whether Saha is a better keeper than Pant. That is where a part of the argument lies. IMO, Saha is an outstanding keeper. One doesn't have to take my word for it, like I said, I am only an armchair expert. See for yourselves the views on Saha's keeping, including from Team Management. Some in our cricketing fraternity consider him the best WK in the world. Fanboys can pretend to know better, but one shouldn't take such people seriously, IMO. https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/saha-has-been-india-s-best-wicket-keeper-for-the-last-10-15-years-ganguly-1386249-2018-11-11 Quote Saha has been India's best wicket-keeper for the last 5-10 years: Ganguly https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/wriddhiman-saha-ms-dhoni-team-india-wicketkeeper-test-cricket-1028611-2017-08-08 Quote Such has been Saha's growth over the years that captain Virat Kohli called him the best Test wicketkeeper in the world after India beat Sri Lanka in the second Test in Colombo. "Four byes on that sort of pitch speaks volumes of the kind of ability he (Saha) has.He's right up there in world cricket among the very best. He's the best keeper in this format right now, I'd say," Kohli said after the second Test. Keeping wickets against Ravichandran Ashwin and Ravindra Jadeja in spin-friendly conditions is extremely tough and a wicketkeeper with a poor technique would have struggled big time. But Saha has been nothing short of extraordinary in the last couple of seasons. https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/india-vs-south-africa-not-convinced-with-rishabh-pant-former-india-player-identifies-best-wicket-keeper-for-test-series/story-5pu4ViE32q0xcFiygnogMO.html Quote Former India wicket-keeper Deep Dasgupta wants Wriddhiman Saha to be given the nod ahead of Rishabh Pant in the upcoming Test series against South Africa owing to his superior wicket-keeping skills. Dasgupta also hailed Saha as the best wicket-keeper in the world and wanted him to wickets on rather challenging surfaces in India. “Post his recovery from injury, Wriddhi has delivered and done whatever one has asked of him. There is no shadow of doubt that he is the best wicket-keeper in the world at present. The only question was whether Wriddhi was a good enough batsman, especially when the team is looking to play five bowlers,” Dasgupta was quoted as saying in The Telegraph. However, he was quick to concede that Rishabh Pant remains the better batsman and this could well influence the decision of the management when they make the final call, but if they went purely with wicket-keeping skills, Saha should be the preferred option. https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/india-vs-south-africa-wriddhiman-saha-to-replace-rishabh-pant-in-1st-test/story-DAJFZFvyuIhjU6ORh9tTCN.html Quote According to sources cited by Times of india, “The selectors are in a mood to give one final chance to Pant in the first Test, but the team management coach (Ravi Shastri and skipper Virat Kohli) want Saha to play from the start of the series itself.” Also read: Pant is special, will back him to the hilt,’ Ravi Shastri “The problem is, Pant’s lack of success with the bat is hurting his confidence while keeping wickets too. His DRS reviews aren’t great. In Indian conditions, on turning wickets, he may struggle. Saha is a far better ‘keeper than him, and get a few useful runs lower down the order too,” the source further said in the report. Of course Shastri also says this about Pant Quote Meanwhile, in an interview to Hindustan Times, coach Shastri backed Pant and said that the left-handed batsman is a match-winner. “Pant is different, he is world class and is a brutal match-winner. Very few around in the world game; I can’t pick five on my hands when it comes to white-ball cricket, T20 cricket. So the patience we will have with him is a lot. All your media reports and all the experts writing (but) Pant is in great space with this Indian team. Experts, they have a job, they can speak. Pant is a special kid and he has already done enough. And he is only going to learn. This team management will back him to the hilt,” he said. The idea that Pant not playing a series here or there at home will destroy his confidence is idiotic. If that is the case, he is too mentally weak to even be in the Indian team in the first place. I doubt that is the case anyway. Fanboys are self-styled sports psychology experts. He is 21 and will definitely continue to get chances, as the coach himself says. End of part 2 Edited October 1, 2019 by Tibarn Moochad and sandeep 2
Oldhere Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 So confirmed in PC that Saha is playing. Shameful utterly shameful from this TM. They just dont know how to take care of young batsmen nd WK. They only know a bit abt Pacers. Mosher 1
adi B Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 Someone should ask 1 reason ,just 1 to drop pant from tests ? He cant answer ,he will runaway ,the choker raki05 and Mosher 2
R!TTER Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 Arey bhai wo to MC BC BBC nikalega patrakar ki, c****
raki05 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 So Pant has been dropped from only format where he is averaging more than 45....same happened with Raul dropped from t20 where he is avging over 45.. Mosher and diehardpacer 1 1
Mosher Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 This has nothing to do with cricket. A youngster goes onto tough tours like England and Australia for the first time and performs very well and he is dropped for home tests. Its pure politics that is being played with Pant. Kohli is the worst captain ever for youngsters. express bowling, adi B, maniac and 3 others 1 5
Moochad Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 12 hours ago, Tibarn said: Summary Away from home, without a keeper we average ~(-)21 less runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)9 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)23 more runs than the average Test score At home, without a keeper we average ~(+)32 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)62 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)76 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, Pant's extra and superior batting is the difference between a a marginally above par score and a solidly above par score. The difference between 9 and 23 runs above par is fairly significant, almost the equivalent of an extra number 9 batsman. Great statistical analysis. It really puts the numbers in perspective how much better our batting is at home vs away. Quote At home, we would post above par scores even if we played with only 9 wickets. Our average is 350 with just 10 players. The numbers from above are a worst case scenario in the case of our home performance, where players like Vihari, Agarwal, or Rohit don't have a superior average at home than away. Even adding 3(like Jadeja's batting bump playing at home) to each of their averages at home would mean even without a keeper, we would score upwards of 360, and the number gets significantly higher if we accept that Indian players are significantly better at home, barring Rahane, where averages at home can easily be above 5. The difference between the score posted if we played Saha vs Pant is 62 above par vs 76 above par. Shown again below + Saha = 386.85 + Pant = 400.57 Either one we play, we are at minimum 62 above par. I disagree with the bolded part. A worst case scenario would be if Vihari, Agarwal and Rohit were in the Rahane mold. According to your stats, Rahane averages 12 less at home than away. If all three also were that poor at home like Rahane, that would be 36 runs less than our predicted total so the worst case scenario would be, taking 36 runs away from each total At home, without a keeper we average ~(-)4 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)26 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)40 more runs than the average Test score You can add that to your above post. Also, a best case scenario, where the 3 players improve as much as Pujara, adding 23 to their total each would given 68 more runs, so At home, without a keeper we average ~(+)64 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)94 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)108 more runs than the average Test score Both worst and best case scenarios are unlikly, but they are interesting to add to your analysis. Pant would still be prefered in my opinion in the worst case scenario, by the logic you applied b/c 40 is a comfortable lead, 26 is handy. Quote This is why I suggested that Pant's superior batting provides diminishing returns for the upcoming series. It is a home series and our home batting lineup is outstanding. (Imagine if we replaced Rahane with a more competent player in home conditions, as Rahane averages over 12 less at home than away!). At that level of scoring, if we could sacrifice 13.72 runs for a better keeping option who could make the spinners and pacers more dangerous and prevent byes, why wouldn't we? 386.85 runs is more than enough for a score in most cases for our bowlers to bowl-out the opposition at home. All else being equal that is certainly true. We don't need as much batting from the keeper position at home. I also understand that your saying that both keepers deserve consideration. I am solidly in favor of Pant only over Saha. The argument against I would make here against Saha and for Pant is that because our difference and run balance is so large at home, that should encourage us to play Pant. Here is why: according to your stats, even without a batting contribution from the keeper, our team would score 350+ on average. A keeper with a mediocre batting average like Saha takes it to 380+ In this situation, with no pressure, even with repeated failyres we score over 350, it would be the best time to develop a player like PAnt. He would be able work om his game freely without any pressure b/c the team's performance wouldnt be dependant on him. This would help him find himself for overseas tours where he could be asked to carry a bigger load. diehardpacer 1
ShoonyaSifar Posted October 1, 2019 Author Posted October 1, 2019 15 hours ago, Tibarn said: Part 2 Why Saha can be considered for the upcoming home series vs SA The thought process/math goes like this: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=4;host=5;host=6;host=7;host=8;orderby=matches;spanmax1=01+Oct+2019;spanmin1=01+Oct+2009;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=aggregate http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=4;host=5;host=6;host=7;host=8;orderby=matches;spanmax1=01+Oct+2019;spanmax2=01+Oct+2019;spanmin1=01+Oct+2009;spanmin2=01+Oct+2014;spanval1=span;spanval2=span;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=aggregate The average Test score last 10 years 324.57 The average Test score last 5 years 324.5 Our Playing XI as of current plans/recent selections *(Outside of Bhuvi, there isn't much batting ability for our pacers. Their averages are negligible home or away, so I will mark them the same for both places at 10) *(I have to make up an opening average for Rohit, since he hasn't opened in Tests before. Let's use his away average for both) *(Agarwal and Vihari have no home stats, so I will use their away stats here) Away (averages) Rohit (26.32) Agarwal(39.28) Pujara(39.12) Kohli(46.12) Rahane(46.76) Vihari(45.6) () Jadeja(30.38) Pacer(10) Pacer(10) Pacer(10) *Saha 30.63 *Pant 44.35 The average Test score last 10 years = 324.57 The average Test score last 5 years = 324.5 India Average Total(Away)(w/out WK) = 303.58 + Saha = 334.21 + Pant = 347.93 Away from home, without a keeper we average ~(-)21 less runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)9 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)23 more runs than the average Test score Home Rohit (26.32) Agarwal(39.28) Pujara(61.86) Kohli(64.68) Rahane(34.54) Vihari(45.6) WK() Jadeja(34.14) Ashwin(29.8) Pacer(10) Pacer(10) *Saha 30.63 *Pant 44.35 The average Test score last 10 years = 324.57 The average Test score last 5 years = 324.5 India Average Total(Home)(w/out WK)= 356.22 + Saha = 386.85 + Pant = 400.57 At home, without a keeper we average ~(+)32 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)62 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)76 more runs than the average Test score Difference(Home-Away) 1. 0 2. 0 3. +22.74 4. +18.56 5. -12.22 6. 0 7. 0 8. +3.76 9. +19.8 10. 0 11. 0 Total = + 52.64 difference home vs away Pant vs Saha difference = Pant + 13.72 Summary Away from home, without a keeper we average ~(-)21 less runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)9 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)23 more runs than the average Test score At home, without a keeper we average ~(+)32 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Saha, we average ~(+)62 more runs than the average Test score At home, if we play Pant, we average ~(+)76 more runs than the average Test score Away from home, Pant's extra and superior batting is the difference between a a marginally above par score and a solidly above par score. The difference between 9 and 23 runs above par is fairly significant, almost the equivalent of an extra number 9 batsman. At home, we would post above par scores even if we played with only 9 wickets. Our average is 350 with just 10 players. The numbers from above are a worst case scenario in the case of our home performance, where players like Vihari, Agarwal, or Rohit don't have a superior average at home than away. Even adding 3(like Jadeja's batting bump playing at home) to each of their averages at home would mean even without a keeper, we would score upwards of 360, and the number gets significantly higher if we accept that Indian players are significantly better at home, barring Rahane, where averages at home can easily be above 5. The difference between the score posted if we played Saha vs Pant is 62 above par vs 76 above par. Shown again below + Saha = 386.85 + Pant = 400.57 Either one we play, we are at minimum 62 above par. This is why I suggested that Pant's superior batting provides diminishing returns for the upcoming series. It is a home series and our home batting lineup is outstanding. (Imagine if we replaced Rahane with a more competent player in home conditions, as Rahane averages over 12 less at home than away!). At that level of scoring, if we could sacrifice 13.72 runs for a better keeping option who could make the spinners and pacers more dangerous and prevent byes, why wouldn't we? 386.85 runs is more than enough for a score in most cases for our bowlers to bowl-out the opposition at home. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The question arises on whether Saha is a better keeper than Pant. That is where a part of the argument lies. IMO, Saha is an outstanding keeper. One doesn't have to take my word for it, like I said, I am only an armchair expert. See for yourselves the views on Saha's keeping, including from Team Management. Some in our cricketing fraternity consider him the best WK in the world. Fanboys can pretend to know better, but one shouldn't take such people seriously, IMO. https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/saha-has-been-india-s-best-wicket-keeper-for-the-last-10-15-years-ganguly-1386249-2018-11-11 https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/wriddhiman-saha-ms-dhoni-team-india-wicketkeeper-test-cricket-1028611-2017-08-08 https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/india-vs-south-africa-not-convinced-with-rishabh-pant-former-india-player-identifies-best-wicket-keeper-for-test-series/story-5pu4ViE32q0xcFiygnogMO.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/india-vs-south-africa-wriddhiman-saha-to-replace-rishabh-pant-in-1st-test/story-DAJFZFvyuIhjU6ORh9tTCN.html Of course Shastri also says this about Pant The idea that Pant not playing a series here or there at home will destroy his confidence is idiotic. If that is the case, he is too mentally weak to even be in the Indian team in the first place. I doubt that is the case anyway. Fanboys are self-styled sports psychology experts. He is 21 and will definitely continue to get chances, as the coach himself says. End of part 2 So we have suddenly gone from batsman vs batsman comparison and who is a better match winner to team totals. Nice. And add to it suddenly the opinion by ex players, some even from 2017! Any more goalposts to shift? diehardpacer, New guy and Tibarn 2 1
Tibarn Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ShoonyaSifar said: So we have suddenly gone from batsman vs batsman comparison and reading comprehension failure example #1 logic fail #1: Strawman fallacy- attacking an argument someone else didn't make I have stated multiple times Pant is a better batsman than Saha. The only argument to play Saha comes down to his superiority in keeping providing more value. Me: Pant is a superior batsman Fanboy: Wrong! Pant is actually 1.5 times the batsman Saha is Kaha se aate hai ye log Quote who is a better match winner to team totals. Nice. Fanboy reading comprehension failure example #2 Fanboy logic fail #2: Strawman fallacy- attacking an argument someone else didn't make I never made an argument about who is a bigger match-winner. The argument was Saha could provide more value to the side for the upcoming series, and thereby help wins. Neither Saha nor Pant are match-winners. (Although Pant could possibly be one in the future). Pant fanboys apparently throw that word around very loosely, just like claims of "once in a lifetime talent who accomplished more than Dravid" Quote who is a better match winner to team totals. Nice. reading comprehension failure example #3 Instead the fanboy actually addressing the post which demolished the argument the fanboy itself made, the fanboy randomly attacks a post which doesn't relate to anything he said. The fanboy later confuses its lack of reading comprehension and integrity as some sort of goalpost shift. Of course, anyone with a functional level of literacy would notice that that post wasn't directed to any conversation in this thread, it expounded upon my original post, from my first post of the thread, which is below. Quote Arguably we get more value from Saha's keeping than Pant's superior batting. Off course, it's funny that the fanboy avoids addressing the post, literally one post earlier than the one it quoted, which demolished its nonsense arguments. The fanboy apparently has no actual reply, so instead it tries to display logic(and reading comprehension) skills it doesn't possess. Quote And add to it suddenly the opinion by ex players, some even from 2017! General stupidity example #1 When part of the argument is that Saha is a superior keeper, and thus the team management will consider his selection, it is perfectly reasonable to quote numerous current and former players who are experts in the field on their opinions on keeping. From Kohli to Ganguly all have stated that Saha is one of the best keepers in the world. Of course, this same fanboy, so deficient in cricketing knowledge, made the claim below. Quote Will not even go into their keeping records, Saha will look embarrassingly poor. Someone who expects to be taken seriously actually claimed that Saha has an embarrassingly poor record as a keeper. You can't make this stuff up All those current and ex-cricketers are obviously wrong about Saha's keeping ability. Quote Any more goalposts to shift? Logic fail #3 Wrongly claiming a shifting of goalposts This fanboy's failure to read simple English, invention of strawmen, and avoidance of the post that demolished all of their arguments do not equal me shifting goalposts. 3 examples of poor reading comprehension, 3 examples of poor logic, and 1 generally stupid comment. Congrats on making a truly terrible post Edited October 1, 2019 by Tibarn express bowling, abc, Moochad and 1 other 1 3
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now