UNBIASED OPINION: India's 2001 victory against Aus or 2005 England Ashes victory - Which was the greater series and which home side deserves more credit ?

[rangeelaraja]

In favor of the 2001 series win for India:

 

• Ganguly's first major series as test captain, India lost 5 test matches in a row including getting whitewashed ( 2-0 ) by RSA at HOME !!
•  No Anil Kumble ( the pillar of our home domination already for a few years )
•  Aus had their best playing XI with many of their ATGs in red hot form - with no injures and was on a 16 match winning streak
• India got hammered within 3 days in the 1st Test match ( I was actually at Wankhede for the 3rd day and the way Hayden toyed with our bowling made me lose all hopes for the rest of the series)
•  Even in the 2nd Test  in Kolkata India were dead and buried after the first innings. We won after a follow on was imposed on us - an extraordinarily rare feat.

 

Against the 2001 series win for India:

 

• Our bowling was all Harbhajan. Totally lopsided 1 bowler attack. Although his own performance was once in a generation series performance - our attack was absolutely toothless even at home without him.
• I think a 5 match series would have been more fair - what would we have done for a 4th or 5th test had Harbhajan got worn out or lost form due to fatigue, given the entire bowling was resting on him ? Not seen 1 bowler bowl  close to 40 % of the overs in a 5 match series. 

 

In favor of the 2005 series win for Eng:

 

• England just like India got hammered in the 1st test and made a stunning comeback. 
• England came up with extraordinary display of seam and swing bowling - that was just not a 1 man attack - Flintoff, Harmison, Simon Jones - after a long time Aus Test batting juggernaut got violated by fast bowlers. Eng pacers outdid Aus - a huge rarity for that "era"
• 5 match test series - long enough to been a fair result. Not a 2 or 3 match series where a freak performance or two could swing the result in favor of the "weaker" team.

 

Against the 2005 series win for Eng:

• Both the matches that Aus lost, Mcgrath was out injured. Eng did not win a single test match in that series that Mcgrath played. I think this was the difference. Had Mcgrath not missed 2 tests - the result of this Ashes could have been different most likely
• Gillespie was at the end of his career, totally out of form.

 

 

Overall verdict - I would strongly voted for OUR victory as being the greater victory had that series been a 5 match series. For now, I will say it is just marginally better than England's win.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[neel roy]

Ind aus 2020/21 is the best series hands down. Better than the above mentioned. Reason is simple. Series won by visiting team. In both above it was home team which won..

Edited November 20, 2021 by neel roy

[rangeelaraja]

5 minutes ago, neel roy said:

Ind aus 2020/21 is the best series hands down. Better than the above mentioned. Reason is simple. Series won by visiting team. In both above it was home team which won..

 

The topic is comparing 2 series of the same era that were iconic series and will remain for eternity. The verdict as to which of the 2 series in OP is greater is still hotly contested. 

 

Our recent win in Aus is undoubtedly a greater victory because it is an away victory - but it is from a different era - 20 years apart.

Edited November 20, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[goose]

11 minutes ago, neel roy said:

Ind aus 2020/21 is the best series hands down. Better than the above mentioned. Reason is simple. Series won by visiting team. In both above it was home team which won..

 

i think that's a bit of a lazy stance to take. Aus were beating everyone home and away when they played us in 2001.

[goose]

16 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

In favor of the 2001 series win for India:

 

• Ganguly's first major series as test captain, India lost 5 test matches in a row including getting whitewashed ( 2-0 ) by RSA at HOME !!
•  No Anil Kumble ( the pillar of our home domination already for a few years )
•  Aus had their best playing XI with many of their ATGs in red hot form - with no injures and was on a 16 match winning streak
• India got hammered within 3 days in the 1st Test match ( I was actually at Wankhede for the 3rd day and the way Hayden toyed with our bowling made me lose all hopes for the rest of the series)
•  Even in the 2nd Test  in Kolkata India were dead and buried after the first innings. We won after a follow on was imposed on us - an extraordinarily rare feat.

 

Against the 2001 series win for India:

 

• Our bowling was all Harbhajan. Totally lopsided 1 bowler attack. Although his own performance was once in a generation series performance - our attack was absolutely toothless even at home without him.
• I think a 5 match series would have been more fair - what would we have done for a 4th or 5th test had Harbhajan got worn out or lost form due to fatigue, given the entire bowling was resting on him ? Not seen 1 bowler bowl  close to 40 % of the overs in a 5 match series. 

 

In favor of the 2005 series win for Eng:

 

• England just like India got hammered in the 1st test and made a stunning comeback. 
• England came up with extraordinary display of seam and swing bowling - that was just not a 1 man attack - Flintoff, Harmison, Simon Jones - after a long time Aus Test batting juggernaut got violated by fast bowlers. Eng pacers outdid Aus - a huge rarity for that "era"
• 5 match test series - long enough to been a fair result. Not a 2 or 3 match series where a freak performance or two could swing the result in favor of the "weaker" team.

 

Against the 2005 series win for Eng:

• Both the matches that Aus lost, Mcgrath was out injured. Eng did not win a single test match in that series that Mcgrath played. I think this was the difference. Had Mcgrath not missed 2 tests - the result of this Ashes could have been different most likely
• Gillespie was at the end of his career, totally out of form.

 

 

Overall verdict - I would strongly voted for OUR victory as being the greater victory had that series been a 5 match series. For now, I will say it is just marginally better than England's win.

 

 

 

 

 

i reckon 2001 edges 2005. Aus were already on the wane by 2005.

 

[neel roy]

7 minutes ago, goose said:

 

i think that's a bit of a lazy stance to take. Aus were beating everyone home and away when they played us in 2001.

aus were 280 odd for 8 till waugh gillespie hauled them back in eden gardens first innings (400 plus) and had a century partnership due to indias crap bowling to tail. There were dropped catches. The biggest issue australia still cry about in both tests is home umpiring. Even the ashes last wicket in 2005 was not out. Also there were few dubious decisions against aus in 2001 eden gardens and chennai. 2021 we had drs so we won fair n square.. also don’t discount the vociferous home crowd and heat and humidity in india which india was accustomed to .. aus was not. ..

Edited November 20, 2021 by neel roy

[rangeelaraja]

7 minutes ago, goose said:

 

i reckon 2001 edges 2005. Aus were already on the wane by 2005.

 

 

You think so ? They had beaten us at home 2-1 just 6 months prior to that. Something that they had not managed even in 2001.

 

And both Kumble and Harbhajan were playing when they beat us at home in 2004/5.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[Lone Wolf]

2001 series for sure..   2005 Ashes win even though remarkable but England had massive luck factor as well to go along. 

[R!TTER]

2001 & the c**** from down under know it 

[coffee_rules]

2005 was a classic 5 Test series. 2001 was a 3 test series. Hard to make comebacks. But the intensity of cricket was pretty high in both

[Nikola]

Didn't england tamper ball in whole 2005 ashes series? gillespie was past his prime, lee not at his best and mcgrath unfit.

[rangeelaraja]

Just felt that the 2005 Ashes effort from England was solid team fight back. 
 

Ours in 2001 was a short series where 1 bowler had an absolute freak series with the ball. And the rest of the attack was toothless. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[Lord]

2005 was fun to watch even as a neutral. KP batting and Flintoff bowling is unforgettable

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

33 minutes ago, Lord said:

2005 was fun to watch even as a neutral. KP batting and Flintoff bowling is unforgettable

 

 

 

So true. 
 

I mean until that 2005  series, I had not seen

THAT vintage of Aussie batsmen get harassed and violated so consistently with pace, bounce, swing and seam movement. 
 

Flintoff, Harmison were in deadly form with the ball ably supported by Simon Jones who did very well himself. 

[Vickydev]

2005 Ashes. That was an absolute monster of a test series. Two boxers going at it over 12 rounds throwing everything at each other...with spin, pace, reverse swing, gritty batting, attacking batting, superb captaincy...You name it, it had it.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Vickydev

[rangeelaraja]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

2005 was a classic 5 Test series. 2001 was a 3 test series. Hard to make comebacks. But the intensity of cricket was pretty high in both

 

True that.

 

I feel, should McGrath have not missed 2 games Aus would have atleast leveled that Ashes 2005.
 

And had we played 5 tests instead of 3, in 2001, Aus would have probably also leveled the series against us. They were that good. Bhajji  bowled nearly 150 overs combined in just 2 tests  - Kolkata and  Chennai and I doubt he would have been able to continue on this vein for 2 more tests. 
 

OTOH, I feel Kumble’s injury and Harbhajan getting a chance to be the lead spinner was a blessing in disguise for us. 
 

Kumble as good as he was on our pitches was a known commodity for the Aussies - he would have been successful but not as destructive as Bhajji who was a major surprise package that just blew away Aus in the last 2 tests taking  a ridiculous 28 wickets out of 40. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[vvvslaxman]

India  broke the winning streak against all odds. 

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India  broke the winning streak against all odds. 

 

Didn't we win the 1998 series also.India were also known as very strong at home.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

10 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Didn't we win the 1998 series also.India were also known as very strong at home.

 

 

 

 

But Australian winning unit was formed after that. Adam Gilchrist was not there. Ever since Langer/Adam Gilchrist produced that unbelievable partnership against Pakistan to win that test they became unstoppable.  Besides there was no Mcgrath or Gillespie as well.

[kohli]

2001 series won by individual  performance but 2005 series won by team. Ind beat red hot Aussie but eng beat ageing & declining Aussie.