Can India afford to be secular?

[zen]

First of all, I like to see myself as a global citizen. When I was naive, I dreamt of a borderless subcontinent. Today too, I believe in multiculturalism and I interact with people of all types of background. And if that is so, why am I being a hypocrite and asking the question - Can India afford to be secular? 

 

In the battle of Kurukshetra, Lord Krishna advised Arjuna to do his duty. Before I go into what duties we are responsible for, let's look at the map below: 

 

 

 

 

• Since Christianity is spread everywhere, Christian dominated countries can afford to be "secular" (at least on the surface) 
• Islam has a foothold in quite a few countries. These countries do not even entertain the thought of being secular 

 

Similar to how Israel caters to Jews, the subcon caters to the native religions including Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc. These religions and cultures have no place to go, except Buddhism which spread a long time ago. 

 

What is interesting is that the native religions, apart from Buddhism, have not attempted to spread to other parts of the world relative to Christianity and Islam. On the other hand, the region has been influenced by both Islam and Christianity. 

 

 

The region can be secular or whatever, if the native religions had spread across the globe like Christianity or Islam. Unfortunately, they did not. Therefore, India is the only place where this important ancient culture with its religions can be kept alive in its pure form. If this culture loses India, it is as good as gone (or at least diluted to take a different form). Gods took the initiative to give this region its culture. Last thing that we want is to lose/dilute it further based on the preaching of Christianity which has a foothold in majority of countries and can afford to sound "secular". Islam, of course, is more straightforward with its agenda of Ghazwa-e-Hind. 

 

Yes, we like to be secular, but we cannot afford to be at this point in time because our ancestors did not focus much outwards. Now what remains of us is left duty bound to protect and maintain it and that too in its birthplace (not even in a different region). India, sooner or later, has to move towards becoming native religions focused. 

 

 

Just my 2 but important cents. 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by zen

[Mariyam]

@zen

 

I'm no expert on the matter, but my basic understanding is the verses re: Ghazwa e Hind are mostly a recent concoction. Not an Islamic agenda as you claim.

They are unverified verses from the Hadees. There is a general consensus among scholars that there are " kitab al sittah" or six verified/authenticated hadees.

 

These verses aren't from there. They are the sayings of one of the companions and find no mention by any of the others. That itself maybe a technical reason to doubt their veracity.

 

More so, if they were authentic, the many Islamic invaders who have attacked India over the centuries would have mentioned it in their literature. But there is no such mention what so ever. Almost all mentions are from the 80s and that too from Pakistani sources.

 

Maybe @Alam_dar @Sooda can chip in here.

 

[zen]

1 minute ago, Mariyam said:

@zen

 

I'm no expert on the matter, but my basic understanding is the verses re: Ghazwa e Hind are mostly a recent concoction. Not an Islamic agenda as you claim.

They are unverified verses from the Hadees. There is a general consensus among scholars that there are " kitab al sittah" or six verified/authenticated hadees.

 

These verses aren't from there. They are the sayings of one of the companions and find no mention by any of the others. That itself maybe a technical reason to doubt their veracity.

 

More so, if they were authentic, the many Islamic invaders who have attacked India over the centuries would have mentioned it in their literature. But there is no such mention what so ever. Almost all mentions are from the 80s and that too from Pakistani sources.

 

Maybe @Alam_dar @Sooda can chip in here.

 

Ok, but my key point is on safeguarding the ancient culture. There are so many Christian dominated countries, tons of Islamic countries, and even a Jewish state. 
 

India is a birthplace of so many great religions

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

Our ancestors were bunch of idiots... If not for Ashoka's efforts Buddhism would never had prospered. 

Hinduism in ancient era was complex & not easy as it is now today.  There was a period of time when Buddhism was all set to replace it in India most of our Kings had adopted this in ancient India.  Adishankra's story comes here as how he gave it a different meaning &  how he saved it & stopped Buddhism's rapid advance. 

When Hinduism had some sorta appeal we didn't had good enough kings to spread it anywhere. 

[ravishingravi]

How are we defining secular ? 
 

 

[New guy]

9 hours ago, zen said:

First of all, I like to see myself as a global citizen. When I was naive, I dreamt of a borderless subcontinent. Today too, I believe in multiculturalism and I interact with people of all types of background. And if that is so, why am I being a hypocrite and asking the question - Can India afford to be secular? 

 

In the battle of Kurukshetra, Lord Krishna advised Arjuna to do his duty. Before I go into what duties we are responsible for, let's look at the map below: 

 

 

 

 

• Since Christianity is spread everywhere, Christian dominated countries can afford to be "secular" (at least on the surface) 
• Islam has a foothold in quite a few countries. These countries do not even entertain the thought of being secular 

 

Similar to how Israel caters to Jews, the subcon caters to the native religions including Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc. These religions and cultures have no place to go, except Buddhism which spread a long time ago. 

 

What is interesting is that the native religions, apart from Buddhism, have not attempted to spread to other parts of the world relative to Christianity and Islam. On the other hand, the region has been influenced by both Islam and Christianity. 

 

 

The region can be secular or whatever, if the native religions had spread across the globe like Christianity or Islam. Unfortunately, they did not. Therefore, India is the only place where this important ancient culture with its religions can be kept alive in its pure form. If this culture loses India, it is as good as gone (or at least diluted to take a different form). Gods took the initiative to give this region its culture. Last thing that we want is to lose/dilute it further based on the preaching of Christianity which has a foothold in majority of countries and can afford to sound "secular". Islam, of course, is more straightforward with its agenda of Ghazwa-e-Hind. 

 

Yes, we like to be secular, but we cannot afford to be at this point in time because our ancestors did not focus much outwards. Now what remains of us is left duty bound to protect and maintain it and that too in its birthplace (not even in a different region). India, sooner or later, has to move towards becoming native religions focused. 

 

 

Just my 2 but important cents. 

 

 

 

 

So let me get this straight

 

Hinduism survived after independence, in a poor country, divided in a million ways by the British and the partition, left desolate and in poverty with no resource and no support. Conversion was ripe

 

Over the years the country got more stable, we developed, mostly in peace and unity. 

 

In EVERY SINGLE parameter Hindus have progressed, grown in numbers, grown richer and more powerful

 

Meanwhile our neighbors focusing on religion have gone backwards mostly, the periods of peace or progress they see are under more liberal leaders

 

But now when we see peace and stability in a more peaceful and stable world, suddenly you are scared for Hinduism? Why? Based on what data? What fact? Based on right wing party's fear mongering which has no basis in reality?

 

So basically the summary of your post is, India and Hinduism have done great in a secular country and progressed on all parameters and is respected around the world. Meanwhile country focusing on majority religion have gone backwards. 

 

But your solution is, we should be like them?

 

I dont know if Indians are getting dumber lately but this take is outstanding even for that

[zen]

1 hour ago, New guy said:

 

So let me get this straight

 

Hinduism survived after independence, in a poor country, divided in a million ways by the British and the partition, left desolate and in poverty with no resource and no support. Conversion was ripe

 

Over the years the country got more stable, we developed, mostly in peace and unity. 

 

In EVERY SINGLE parameter Hindus have progressed, grown in numbers, grown richer and more powerful

 

Meanwhile our neighbors focusing on religion have gone backwards mostly, the periods of peace or progress they see are under more liberal leaders

 

But now when we see peace and stability in a more peaceful and stable world, suddenly you are scared for Hinduism? Why? Based on what data? What fact? Based on right wing party's fear mongering which has no basis in reality?

 

So basically the summary of your post is, India and Hinduism have done great in a secular country and progressed on all parameters and is respected around the world. Meanwhile country focusing on majority religion have gone backwards. 

 

But your solution is, we should be like them?

 

I dont know if Indians are getting dumber lately but this take is outstanding even for that

Sorry but you are writing something irrelevant to the topic  … But anyways good to see some comparisons with the great Pak, $$$ and prosperity talk thrown in when roughly 2/3rd of the population lives below the poverty line, and so on  

 

I understand that many Hindus will sell their religion/culture for $$$ as $$$ can buy something, religion/culture can’t (and as if the thread is on such topics) 

Edited November 23, 2021 by zen

[New guy]

19 minutes ago, zen said:

Sorry but you are writing something irrelevant to the topic  … But anyways good to see some comparisons with the great Pak, $$$ and prosperity talk thrown in when roughly 2/3rd of the population lives below the poverty line, and so on  

 

I understand that many Hindus will sell their religion/culture for $$$ as $$$ can buy something, religion/culture can’t (and as if the thread is on such topics) 

Show me facts and figures showing hinduism is in danger

 

Yes we have not progressed as desired but its mostly because when have small periods of peace and growth we have right wingers rise and spread hatred and divide the country again and we go back to square one.

 

The only Hindus selling their religion are the ones who understand it the least. Hindus Gods and avatars were always extremely liberal and preached secular values.

 

Now people are hijacking it for their favorite cult party and wanting it to be a clone of other intolerant religions

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by New guy

[zen]

26 minutes ago, New guy said:

Show me facts and figures showing hinduism is in danger

 

Yes we have not progressed as desired but its mostly because when have small periods of peace and growth we have right wingers rise and spread hatred and divide the country again and we go back to square one.

 

The only Hindus selling their religion are the ones who understand it the least. Hindus Gods and avatars were always extremely liberal and preached secular values.

 

Now people are hijacking it for their favorite cult party and wanting it to be a clone of other intolerant religions

 

 

 

Again you are attempting to limit the great native religions and culture to numbers, politics, and so on ... 

 

Grow up! 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by zen

[diga]

With incidences like restriction of religious freedom in some of the minority dominated areas or violence on the rise, it will be a matter of time before another partition... MTC, secularism is a 2 way street and I dont see that practiced in minority dominated areas of Bengal or Kerala. I may be wrong, but its hard to ignore those incidents.

[zen]

J&K -> Pandits driven out ... no one cares including Hindus 

 

A person of a different religion dies:

 

 

 

[zen]

100s of years from now, people in India could be doing a case study on how Hindus once lived in this region and how they triggered their own downfall 

 

[zen]

I won't be surprised if Naik is getting funded big time ... "Taliban was teaching Buddhism to Buddhist by destroying the statues":

 

 

 

Now will the other religions teach religion to those following native religions in India

 

 

 

 

[beetle]

You make too make threads on India, for someone who finds barely anything good about the nation .....and who thinks casually discussing breaking up the nation is okay.

[ravishingravi]

Maybe a different topic. How does one become or unbecome a global citizen ? I mean if you are in Bandra ( West ), and call yourself citizen from Bandra, but Bandra is India and India is part of the globe. By implication everyone here is a global citizen. 
 

So when identifies oneself as global citizen, what does this mean ? 

[zen]

3 hours ago, beetle said:

You make too make threads on India, for someone who finds barely anything good about the nation .....and who thinks casually discussing breaking up the nation is okay.

 

While many folks usually showered praises, my close friends told me the bitter truth if they felt it was necessary ... I knew whom to trust!  

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by zen

[zen]

21 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

Maybe a different topic. How does one become or unbecome a global citizen ? I mean if you are in Bandra ( West ), and call yourself citizen from Bandra, but Bandra is India and India is part of the globe. By implication everyone here is a global citizen. 
 

So when identifies oneself as global citizen, what does this mean ? 

 

It is actually a common term. Here is a definition - Link

[Clarke]

1 hour ago, ravishingravi said:

So when identifies oneself as global citizen, what does this mean ? 

 

Live in a first world country & lecture third world world countries via a laptop on how they ought to go about everything. Ergo, thats a global citizen.

[Mariyam]

@zen

 

What do you mean by "India, sooner or later, has to move towards becoming native religions focused." ?

 

 

[Mariyam]

1 hour ago, ravishingravi said:

Maybe a different topic. How does one become or unbecome a global citizen ? I mean if you are in Bandra ( West ), and call yourself citizen from Bandra, but Bandra is India and India is part of the globe. By implication everyone here is a global citizen. 
 

So when identifies oneself as global citizen, what does this mean ? 

I like how you specifically mentioned Bandra West!!!

 

What about BKC, why is it outside of your purview of Elysium?

 

We have a Bandra W supremacist here!!!