AKC - Anti Knuckleball Club

[vvvslaxman]

This club is for anti knuckleball bowlers club. I love bowlers deceiving batsmen with slower ball. That should be a surprise delivery. Not stock delivery. We were wrongly glorifying such bowlers.  I remember Unadkat had a short stint because of his "slower ball" ability. Sandeep sharma is another guy.  Let us stop glorifying that skill. Stock ball should be a full pace delivery.  Not "loopy"  bouncer (if you can call it) or "dipping" yorker. 

[Suhaan]

Finally in ICF

 

Mera ICF badal raha hai

Aage badh raha hai

Edited September 24, 2022 by Suhaan

[Sean Bradley]

Knuckle ball is a great asset to have if your avg speed is 138 to 145, then there are chances are that you would deceive the batsman.

But our Trundlers who bowls at 125 to 132 kph and bowl a knuckle delivery at 120 kph, doesn't create much of a deception. Zaheer Khan was one of the best exponent of this delivery. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Sean Bradley

[raki05]

21 minutes ago, Sean Bradley said:

Knuckle ball is a great asset to have if your avg speed is 138 to 145, then there are chances are that you would deceive the batsman.

But our Trundlers who balls at 125 to 132 kph and bowl a knuckle delivery at 120 kph, doesn't create much of a deception. Zaheer Khan was one of the best exponent of this delivery. 

Exactly, zaheer even old age has stock delivery of135 and his bowling has zip with smooth aggresive action. So when he used to varry his pace and slower delivery it's actually deceiving to the batsmen. Now a days these mediocre so called bowlers are already slow and on top of it they are practicing slower delivery and some moron here hyping this by calling them intelligent.

[singhvivek141]

Those who heavily rely on "knuckleballs" as a stock delivery are "nakli" (fake) bowlers.

[Suhaan]

10 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

They can't even bowl the change ups properly, batsmen pick it easily.They need those dusty pitches.

Ian Pont once said Harshal is sharp,most of this gen bowlers have got corrupted with "slower ones"they do it so many times ,in the end get completely confused about their role and strength (stock deliveries)

[IndianRenegade]

Was visible in todays game, Aussie bowlers even though they got their fair bit of trashing were able genuinely deceive Indian batters with slower balls & our batters needed to adjust. 

 

Harshal who is supposed to bean expert in this kind of bowling couldn't deceive the aussies once, because they already knew what to expect.

[vvvslaxman]

In MLB knuckle ball  is going extinct. May be it will happen in cricket as well

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/08/15/mlb-knuckleball-is-quickly-going-extinct/

 

"The decline has been exacerbated by a confluence of factors, above all baseball’s emphasis on velocity and spin rate, characteristics that are virtually absent from a knuckleball. The focus on grooming pitchers who can overpower hitters makes it even harder to find coaches who can teach the knuckleball or organizations with the time and patience to develop a knuckleballer."

 

 

[sandeep]

reactionary thread.

 

Its obvious that the disguised slower ball is only effective if the batsmen aren't able to 'sit' on it without worrying about the quicker ones.  There's also an element of tactical cat and mouse with the fact that knuckle ball has lost its novelty impact and more and more batsmen are able to prepare for it, and adjust to it better.  That's part of how the game moves along.  

 

Fixating on one aspect of bowling, and using that to vent your emotions is just that.  

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

reactionary thread.

 

Its obvious that the disguised slower ball is only effective if the batsmen aren't able to 'sit' on it without worrying about the quicker ones.  There's also an element of tactical cat and mouse with the fact that knuckle ball has lost its novelty impact and more and more batsmen are able to prepare for it, and adjust to it better.  That's part of how the game moves along.  

 

Fixating on one aspect of bowling, and using that to vent your emotions is just that.  

 

You are missing the point. Bowlers are getting selected mainly for "slower balls" which is flat out wrong. Unadkat came back mainly because of his 'slower balls".  Fiz kinda started this trend. But he had a good fast yorker at the base of the stumps.  He could also swing the ball. There was more than one surprise element.  Getting picked for a supplementary skill has to stop.

[sandeep]

38 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Bowlers are getting selected mainly for "slower balls" which is flat out wrong.

says who? 

 

You are drawing random co-relations and turning them into causes.   Its not like India has accurate archer, cummins, hazelwood type bowlers who aren't getting selected.  Bottomline is that guys like bhuvi, Harshal, Chahar have a track record of effectiveness that led to their selection . And other bowlers like Avesh, Prasidh, have been given opportunities which they failed to convert.  

 

Now I agree that over the last couple of years, the effectiveness of slower balls, knuckle balls etc is reducing, and that 'skill' is of lesser value than it was a year or 2 ago.  That's a fair point.  But to turn around and somehow claim that "slow ball, knuckleball" is the 'reason' for selection is just not the case.  

 

I had high hopes for Avesh and Prasidh, but they have shown that at this point in their career development arc, they do not have the control over variations, or even their stock deliveries, to deliver under pressure.  To paraphrase Deng - it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.  I DGAF whether a bowler is a Lockie/Umran type bowler or a Harshal/Faulkner type bowler.  I want bowlers who have high probability of bowling effective under pressure and minimizing boundary hitting opportunities for batsmen.  Even good bowlers and good balls get hit for boundaries in T20 - that's the nature of the game.  What I want to see is bowlers who execute plans well, and don't hand out freebies.  If you look at yesterday's game, that 8 over gigglefest of a 'game', Boomrah actually bowled quite decent, and had the batsmen playing the wrong shot, edging, miscuing often.  But his figures don't show that.  I'm OK with that but I'm not ok with the way Harshal got lined up and straight up bitch-smacked for boundaries.   Btw, I still am hopeful that Avesh and Prasidh will eventually mature into reliable consistent international white ball performers.  But its clear that they aren't ready in time for the WC.   But the point is, don't get fixated on the 'style' of bowlers, or their variation choices. Be dispassionate about it, and judge it by effectiveness and outcome, over a fair sized sample set.  And by outcome, I don't mean just the runs that get scored -sometimes a bowler will induce a mistake from the batsman and 'luck' will still put up runs on the board.  What the team is looking for, and what we should recognize, is whether a bowler is executing his deliveries according to the field set and plan, whether he's able to prevent the batsman from hitting the ball where the batsman would prefer, induce a miscue/edge, etc.  

 

My bias for Bhuvi is a wellknown thing on the forum - I'm an unabashed fan - but its clear that he is not anywhere near his peak T20 effectiveness right now.  Major part of this is that he isn't bowling the 2+ yorkers per over in the death overs.  Without bowling those yorkers, without hitting those speeds close to 140 as he was around 2018, the rest of his skillset is coming up short in the end overs of T20 cricket.  Bhuvi has compiled an impressive T20 career, not just on the back of "knuckle balls".  He is a consistent wicket taking threat with the new ball - even today, inspite of not benefitting from the left-arm angle.  And for a long stretch, he did consistently deliver a potent mix of yorkers, along with yes, 'knuckleballs', that saw him pair extremely effectively with Boom, giving us a very strong bowling finish to T20 games.  I'm still hoping that there's a slight chance that Bhuvi is 'holding back' his yorkers and extra pace for the WC while working on his confidence and execution in delivering them.  

 

The problem for India is that it doesn't have a spin bowling option in its top 6, and we are lacking that spin bowling allrounder option who can tonk the ball.  And while I absolutely detest Jadeja as an option for a T20 WC, but the fact is that in his absence, this problem has become even more of a burden for the XI selection.  This, and only this, is the reason why Harshal Patel is in the mix ahead of say, an Arshdeep.  Because in the absence of a bonafide 2nd allrounder, we can somehow manage if we slot in Harshal as 3rd pacer, and Ashwin as 2nd spinner.   All of this only works if Harshal can carry his weight and be relied upon consistently for bowling solid 3+ overs every game.  If not, I'd expect to see the Arshdeep + Hooda combo replace Harshal and Ash.  Which is unfortunate becasue I think Ashwin has a lot to offer to our T20 WC chances.  We need wicket taking spinners for the middle overs, and I see Ash as part of the solution.    

[vvvslaxman]

^ Just you know i never said Bhuvi was picked only for Knuckle ball bowling. He was selected as swing bowler.Knuckle ball skill is something he acquired over time. I wish he hadn't.   But these slower ball specialists should not get ahead of the pack regardless of how many wickets they take in the IPL. Eventually they are going to be found out. It is inevitable. Not a long term option. Instead back a pacer that can develop slow ball skill. otherway around is impossible. A slow ball merchant is never going to be a raw pace bowler.  You can see an air of helplessness when someone like him bowl in true conditions where ball doesn't grip. He has no other go to ball. I would rather back a yorker specialist. Natrajan an ultra trundler. But he was able to nail yorkers accurately and bowled impressively in Australia.  Although Arshdeep was praised for his variations, the actual reason he bowled well was due to his age old death bowling weapon of yorker.  Not these slow balls, slow off cutters, loopy bouncers. Personally if you can bowl that Venkatesh preasad type of leg cutter you have better chance. Any other knuckle ball "technology" is garbage. Eventually batsman will figure out.

[maniac]

As one of the pioneering activists against knuckle ball I endorse this club

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Talk about getting inspired by wrong things :) Basically He was inspired zaheer's slower balls not his swinging deliveries that found the edge. slower balls was not even Zak's main weapon. Just an additional variety to complement his main skill

 

 

[raki05]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

says who? 

 

You are drawing random co-relations and turning them into causes.   Its not like India has accurate archer, cummins, hazelwood type bowlers who aren't getting selected.  Bottomline is that guys like bhuvi, Harshal, Chahar have a track record of effectiveness that led to their selection . And other bowlers like Avesh, Prasidh, have been given opportunities which they failed to convert.  

 

Now I agree that over the last couple of years, the effectiveness of slower balls, knuckle balls etc is reducing, and that 'skill' is of lesser value than it was a year or 2 ago.  That's a fair point.  But to turn around and somehow claim that "slow ball, knuckleball" is the 'reason' for selection is just not the case.  

 

I had high hopes for Avesh and Prasidh, but they have shown that at this point in their career development arc, they do not have the control over variations, or even their stock deliveries, to deliver under pressure.  To paraphrase Deng - it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.  I DGAF whether a bowler is a Lockie/Umran type bowler or a Harshal/Faulkner type bowler.  I want bowlers who have high probability of bowling effective under pressure and minimizing boundary hitting opportunities for batsmen.  Even good bowlers and good balls get hit for boundaries in T20 - that's the nature of the game.  What I want to see is bowlers who execute plans well, and don't hand out freebies.  If you look at yesterday's game, that 8 over gigglefest of a 'game', Boomrah actually bowled quite decent, and had the batsmen playing the wrong shot, edging, miscuing often.  But his figures don't show that.  I'm OK with that but I'm not ok with the way Harshal got lined up and straight up bitch-smacked for boundaries.   Btw, I still am hopeful that Avesh and Prasidh will eventually mature into reliable consistent international white ball performers.  But its clear that they aren't ready in time for the WC.   But the point is, don't get fixated on the 'style' of bowlers, or their variation choices. Be dispassionate about it, and judge it by effectiveness and outcome, over a fair sized sample set.  And by outcome, I don't mean just the runs that get scored -sometimes a bowler will induce a mistake from the batsman and 'luck' will still put up runs on the board.  What the team is looking for, and what we should recognize, is whether a bowler is executing his deliveries according to the field set and plan, whether he's able to prevent the batsman from hitting the ball where the batsman would prefer, induce a miscue/edge, etc.  

 

My bias for Bhuvi is a wellknown thing on the forum - I'm an unabashed fan - but its clear that he is not anywhere near his peak T20 effectiveness right now.  Major part of this is that he isn't bowling the 2+ yorkers per over in the death overs.  Without bowling those yorkers, without hitting those speeds close to 140 as he was around 2018, the rest of his skillset is coming up short in the end overs of T20 cricket.  Bhuvi has compiled an impressive T20 career, not just on the back of "knuckle balls".  He is a consistent wicket taking threat with the new ball - even today, inspite of not benefitting from the left-arm angle.  And for a long stretch, he did consistently deliver a potent mix of yorkers, along with yes, 'knuckleballs', that saw him pair extremely effectively with Boom, giving us a very strong bowling finish to T20 games.  I'm still hoping that there's a slight chance that Bhuvi is 'holding back' his yorkers and extra pace for the WC while working on his confidence and execution in delivering them.  

 

The problem for India is that it doesn't have a spin bowling option in its top 6, and we are lacking that spin bowling allrounder option who can tonk the ball.  And while I absolutely detest Jadeja as an option for a T20 WC, but the fact is that in his absence, this problem has become even more of a burden for the XI selection.  This, and only this, is the reason why Harshal Patel is in the mix ahead of say, an Arshdeep.  Because in the absence of a bonafide 2nd allrounder, we can somehow manage if we slot in Harshal as 3rd pacer, and Ashwin as 2nd spinner.   All of this only works if Harshal can carry his weight and be relied upon consistently for bowling solid 3+ overs every game.  If not, I'd expect to see the Arshdeep + Hooda combo replace Harshal and Ash.  Which is unfortunate becasue I think Ashwin has a lot to offer to our T20 WC chances.  We need wicket taking spinners for the middle overs, and I see Ash as part of the solution.    

@VVS Laxman @Suhaan @maniac @coffee_rules @Lone Wolf @Lord @express bowling @sarchasm @rollingstoned

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by raki05

[Lone Wolf]

23 minutes ago, raki05 said:

@VVS Laxman @Suhaan @maniac @coffee_rules @Lone Wolf @Lord @express bowling @sarchasm 

 

Gujju posters looking to defend him...  Someone should post a stat how worse he has been in death & 50+ totals he regularly concedes. 

[sandeep]

40 minutes ago, raki05 said:

@VVS Laxman @Suhaan @maniac @coffee_rules @Lone Wolf @Lord @express bowling @sarchasm @rollingstoned

 

 

Aa gaya Banraakas.

[sandeep]

17 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Gujju posters looking to defend him...  Someone should post a stat how worse he has been in death & 50+ totals he regularly concedes. 

so what exactly is a problem with "gujju" posters defending Bhuvi?

[rollingstoned]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

Now I agree that over the last couple of years, the effectiveness of slower balls, knuckle balls etc is reducing, and that 'skill' is of lesser value than it was a year or 2 ago.  That's a fair point.  But to turn around and somehow claim that "slow ball, knuckleball" is the 'reason' for selection is just not the case.  

There's no compelling proof that this is some new development that has happened only over thr last 2 yrs, it's been the case since the time slower balls became a weapon in white ball cricket. Yes with more video analysis and data points the mystery of many bowlers is sussed out quicker but that's a different subject  Without other, more reliable bows in your quiver your slower ball is nerfed to a large extent. It gains a multiplier effect when someone like Bumrah, Malinga or Ferguson delivers it out of nowhere rather than having different varieties of it spammed all the time so that the batsman can set up for it perfectly. That is the point being made. 

On a personal level the one delivery that I hate most is the slower ball bouncer. Pointless and innocuous, more often than not gets called a wide rather than deceiving the batsman effectively. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by rollingstoned

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

@VVS Laxman @Suhaan @maniac @coffee_rules @Lone Wolf @Lord @express bowling @sarchasm @rollingstoned

 

 

itni bhari bharkam bhasha angreji mein hamara samajh ke baahar hain bhaiyya ji