Michael Vaughan places Virat Kohli above Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara: I haven't seen anyone better

[rkt.india]

37 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Kohli has already surpassed Sachin in tests and ODIs. Yet to get ahead of Lara in tests.

I don't think big should be a criterion. For me, it is the consistency that matters most. Lara had so many big series, still averages less than SRT shows the inconsistency. 

[Cricketics]

I warn people who post against Sachin will get negative rep from Laloo and people who post for sachin will get negative rep from Rasgulla.

 

Don’t mind that. 

 

 

Both can’t stand regular discussion and will act like kids.  This is a note mainly for new members who might not know these two padhe likhe grown up kids.

 

 

 

 

[Deleted_User_1]

Blah blah blah give me a phucking overseas series win in SENA and then I will make my judgment. Too pissed at this loss.

[Rasgulla]

1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

I warn people who post against Sachin will get negative rep from Laloo and people who post for sachin will get negative rep from Rasgulla.

 

Don’t mind that. 

 

 

Both can’t stand regular discussion and will act like kids.  This is a note mainly for new members who might not know these two padhe likhe grown up kids.

 

 

 

 

Dude when was the last time i gave you neg rep ? This is bizarre 

 

Putting that donkey's name and mine in same line

Edited December 18, 2018 by Rasgulla

[GolGappe]

Kohli the batsman will be first name in my all time India XI.

He has Tendulkar's hunger and Dravid's appetite for big scores.

 

Don't get me started on Kohli the most powerful man in Indian Cricket. Shastri and Kohli combination have been a disaster for team India.

[Cricketics]

6 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Dude when was the last time i gave you neg rep ? This is bizarre 

 

Putting that donkey's name and mine in same line

Not to me, but to others. I noticed this treand of you and laloo. I have heard from users how badly its being misused.

Both are kids.

 

[zen]

Since the test was at Perth, Lara 132 there

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWYdq6sz6wY

 

[Rasgulla]

2 hours ago, Cricketics said:

Not to me, but to others. I noticed this treand of you and laloo. I have heard from users how badly its being misused.

Both are kids.

 

 

One of them is staff/MOD.. Maybe its time to kick him out. He is shameless enough to hang on despite the backlash

Edited December 18, 2018 by Rasgulla

[Jamadagni]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

I don't think big should be a criterion. For me, it is the consistency that matters most. Lara had so many big series, still averages less than SRT shows the inconsistency. 

I'd rather have an inconsistent Lara than a consistent Sachin in tests. 

 

In series of 6 innings, Lara's scores would be 15, 186, 5, 18, 169, 6.

 

Sachin's would be 52, 48, 102, 32, 78, 55.

 

The two big hundreds Lara scored would then have a huge impact on the result of the matches while though Sachin was consistent, he couldn't shape up the result of any of the three. That's why Lara is a better test batsman than Sachin in my view. 

[Stan AF]

Surely must be potent stuff that Vaughan is smoking. Decent spinners like Lyon and Moeen have troubled him quite well.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Stan AF

[Jamadagni]

2 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Surely must be potent stuff that Vaughan is smoking. Decent spinners like Lyon and Moeen have troubled him quite well.

Sachin also got troubled by a few average pacers. 

[VT87]

12 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Surely must be potent stuff that Vaughan is smoking. Decent spinners like Lyon and Moeen have troubled him quite well.

Monty Panesar,Ashley Giles troubled Sachin a lot and they are far lesser bowler than lyon

[rtmohanlal]

6 hours ago, Jamadagni said:

I'd rather have an inconsistent Lara than a consistent Sachin in tests. 

 

In series of 6 innings, Lara's scores would be 15, 186, 5, 18, 169, 6.

 

Sachin's would be 52, 48, 102, 32, 78, 55.

 

The two big hundreds Lara scored would then have a huge impact on the result of the matches while though Sachin was consistent, he couldn't shape up the result of any of the three. That's why Lara is a better test batsman than Sachin in my view. 

you can place whom ever you want ... but don't exaggerate things  based on conclusions derived from imaginary data ..

I have analysed the actual data of both of  these players and I am forced to say that   your conclusion is far from truth.

 

these are the conclusions based on calculations done on actual data(Abroad only, which carries the most importance )

16 inn 2800r 4774b  175 runs/inns  298.375balls/inns   58.65str:  -SRT
16 inn 2736r 3893b  171 runs/inns  243.313balls/inns   70.28str:  -Lara

In the above case where magnitude of score is given preference, SRT scores 4 more runs on the avg:  by facing 55 more balls.

 

16 inn 2699r 4311b  168.69 runs/inns  269.438   62.61str:  -SRT
16 inn 2736r 3893b  171.00 runs/inns  243.313   70.28str:  -Lara

In the above  2nd case  Sachin's 16 inns with best str: rates are selected for comparison.Here runs/inns gets slightly tilted towards Lara by a mere 2.31 value.But the difference in ball count taken gets considerably reduced to 26 balls from 55 in the first case.

 

So, from both above cases, it is clear that there is not at all that much difference between Lara and Sachin  in terms of dominance, if any very negligible in favour of Lara.

 

 

Lara in his vast majority of <100 scores 'against non minnows abroad' puts 27.8 runs/inns  in 101 inns.

SRT in his vast majority of "<100 scores + 8 least influential 100s"  'against non minnows abroad' puts 37.31 runs/inns  in 128 inns.

 

So while there is very little to choose between them in terms of 'dominance' , there is a very wide gap in favour of SRT w.r.t consistancy.A difference of 37.31-27.8= 9.51 runs/inns  in favour of SRT , that too despite playing 128 inns to Lara's 101

 

So,even in tests it is not a doubt as to who the better batsman was.

Edited December 18, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[sscomp32]

 

 

[CG]

I admire Kohli's Mental Strength and His Work Ethic.He is Like Steve Waugh.On Tough Pitches His Concentration Makes Him Great.He Has Struggled Against Spin.As a Batsman He Does not use his feet or sweep against spin.Neither he plays the cut or has many Blackfoot strokes but his Front foot defence and Strokes are at different level.

Sent from my Nokia 7 plus using Tapatalk

[Stan AF]

41 minutes ago, VT87 said:

Monty Panesar,Ashley Giles troubled Sachin a lot and they are far lesser bowler than lyon

Yes. Monty troubled him at the fag end of his career when he was 39. Not when he was 30. There's a difference.

 

A lot of sides still haven't picked this weakness yet. Good spinners are rare to find at this day and age.

[putrevus]

11 hours ago, R!TTER said:

That's a bit harsh on the openers, now I know that Virat is the chase master in LO but he isn't close to being one in tests. We've come close so many times & yet failed to cross that last hurdle, I know everyone else can be blamed but Virat is also equally responsible for these losses.

Chasing 4th innings total is different ball game altogther, Yes he needed to do more but he has gotten zero help, Adaleide 2013, I dont think he could have done anything else there. First test in England this year , there was nothing else he could. He got no help.

 

These moronic openers have become so useless, it is putting him under so much pressure , he is walking into bat early every single innings. That itself is so much pressure but he has added pressure as he knows if he fails there is not much batting left after him either.

 

You cannot expect him to score every single innings.Pujara is just started to take some load.Our moron vice captain thinks scoring some odd fifty here and there is good enough for him.

 

India has 2 and half batsmen , how can you win anything .

[putrevus]

7 hours ago, Jamadagni said:

I'd rather have an inconsistent Lara than a consistent Sachin in tests. 

 

In series of 6 innings, Lara's scores would be 15, 186, 5, 18, 169, 6.

 

Sachin's would be 52, 48, 102, 32, 78, 55.

 

The two big hundreds Lara scored would then have a huge impact on the result of the matches while though Sachin was consistent, he couldn't shape up the result of any of the three. That's why Lara is a better test batsman than Sachin in my view. 

Spot on I will take Lara over Sachin anyday, as I know the match he fires I will win that match.I don't rate Sachin high for that reason, he got his scored in series but they never were big enough to warrant greatness.

 

Who knows what Lara could have achieved if he batted along with one of great batting lineups like Sachin did for more than 15 years. We are seeing the constant pressure Kohli is under when he has zero support.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by putrevus

[R!TTER]

52 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Chasing 4th innings total is different ball game altogther, Yes he needed to do more but he has gotten zero help, Adaleide 2013, I dont think he could have done anything else there. First test in England this year , there was nothing else he could. He got no help.

 

These moronic openers have become so useless, it is putting him under so much pressure , he is walking into bat early every single innings. That itself is so much pressure but he has added pressure as he knows if he fails there is not much batting left after him either.

 

You cannot expect him to score every single innings.Pujara is just started to take some load.Our moron vice captain thinks scoring some odd fifty here and there is good enough for him.

 

India has 2 and half batsmen , how can you win anything .

He could've just like SRT "could've" taken us over the line in Chennai but we also had a few atrocious decisions that game, so the game was lost a lot earlier than what the scoreboard suggests.

 

Nope he tried to flick IIRC the first or the second ball of a new spell from Stokes, poor decision considering we were fairly evenly placed with Pandya at the other end. He tried a high risk, low reward shot, like Adelaide 2014, but unlike that Aus test this was a much more manageable total for chase. Also the closest loss we've had this year, a set batter who can't close out a 4th innings chase isn't blameless, especially given he's the captain (who thinks we don't need practice matches) & someone who scored a ton in the first innings.

 

They have but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that only our openers are the problem. The biggest issue I've seen is that when one dept does well the other fails or under performs, when bowlers do well the fielders (including Virat) drop dollies, when batters do relatively well the bowlers fail to capitalize & worst of all the opposition tail. Sadly for all the hype around our bowling we haven't been able to bowl out oppositions cheaply every time we blow away their top order.

 

Of course not but tell me how many of these close finishes were really that close, conversely had Virat done a little better how many of them could've been won? In this game itself he played an airy drive just before lunch, was that necessary? This is probably the 3rd or 4th time he's got out to Pat in the exact same manner!

 

India has 1 batter & none who are reliable under pressure. I don't see Kohli as someone who can win us the game when we're trailing, he's not a chase master in tests.

Edited December 18, 2018 by R!TTER

[zen]

8 hours ago, Jamadagni said:

I'd rather have an inconsistent Lara than a consistent Sachin in tests. 

 

In series of 6 innings, Lara's scores would be 15, 186, 5, 18, 169, 6.

 

Sachin's would be 52, 48, 102, 32, 78, 55.

 

The two big hundreds Lara scored would then have a huge impact on the result of the matches while though Sachin was consistent, he couldn't shape up the result of any of the three. That's why Lara is a better test batsman than Sachin in my view. 

And your choice is a good one! 

 

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara played 224 innings. For an apples to apples comparison, we also have Sachin's number at the completion of his 224 inning vs the same group of teams.  In terms of Innings per 50+ score, both Lara and Sachin are similar and therefore equally consistent. So, ideally, in your scores listed above, Lara could have more 50+ scores, along with big 100s, than you listed

 

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara has played 224 innings: 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

ulOrdered by default (ascending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17	1504	81

 

 

Similarly, Tendulkar at his 224th inning vs these sides:

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Aug 2008

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	51	68	14	Profile
filtered	1989-2008	136	224	21	10403	241*	51.24	33	46	13

 

• This is apples to apples at the completion of their respective 224 innings mark
• They have the same # of 50+ scores with Lara having a 50 more, while Tendulkar has a 100 more. Therefore, both of them are equally consistent 
• Lara has scored 1114 more! (highlights the ability to score bigger 100s) 
• Lara averages 53 with just 6 not outs; Tendulkar averages 51 with 21 not outs 

 

*****

 

Also Lara's runs are relatively more valuable for his team

 

During Lara's career vs the selected sides:

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Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 2007

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
BC Lara	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17
S Chanderpaul	1994-2006	91	159	20	6330	203*	45.53	14733	42.96	13	39	10
DL Haynes	1990-1994	31	56	8	2147	167	44.72	4518	47.52	6	8	3
RB Richardson	1990-1995	41	70	5	2629	182	40.44	5323	49.38	6	14	5
JC Adams	1992-2001	52	87	16	2867	208*	40.38	7480	38.32	5	14	7

 

• The combined average of the next 4 batsmen is 43
• Lara averages 53 (+10)
• Avg difference b/w #1 and #2 is 7

 

 

During Tendulkar's career vs the selected sides: 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1989 and 1 Jan 2013

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SR Tendulkar	1989-2012	178	297	27	13907	241*	51.50	43	63	13
V Sehwag	2001-2012	94	165	4	8124	319	50.45	23	28	16
R Dravid	1996-2012	147	261	27	11726	270	50.11	30	57	6
VVS Laxman	1996-2012	125	213	32	8384	281	46.32	16	55	14
M Azharuddin	1989-2000	69	103	6	4357	192	44.91	16	15	4

 

• The combined average of the next 4 batsmen is 48
• Tendulkar averages 51 (+3) 
• Avg difference b/w #1 and #2 is 1 

 

**** 

PS

 

Also in a basket with bowlers, who started in 90s, McGrath+Warne (benchmark pair), Donald+Pollock, and Murali  in their respective sides:

 

  

 

• Avg difference is significant here (Lara is +10)
• Sample size is good too with 50+ innings so the above basket is a good representative of such performances 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by zen