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Why isn’t Clive Lloyd rated as a batsman alone?

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Usually Clive Lloyd makes most ATG sides as a captain or at times other alternatives are made the captain to keep balance.

 

His stature as one of the greatest leaders ever to play the game is indisputable but how  come we never hear his name when talking about greatest batsmen ever to play the game? I don’t think anyone would of top of the head rate Sir Clive in the top 20 batsmen ever to play the game.

 

So I decided to look up his stats

 

He has a test average of 47 in that era with 19 100’s and  about 7500 runs

 

He has a odi average of nearly 40 again in that era and a strike rate of 82 again in that era of odi cricket.

 

For me he is probably the top 5 left hand batsmen at least to play the game.

 

Your views?

 

Also any insights would be welcome from @Straight Drive @Harsh Thakor @Audiophile @Tattieboy

Edited by maniac
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I guess because batsmen such as Richards and Greenidge, along with maybe Haynes, were rated above him in his own team. On top of that there were batsmen like G Chappell in other teams .... I would say he is probably right up there with Miandad and Gower (who hit 7 100s in a time when many batsmen hit 1-3 100s in their career) 

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yea i have always wondered same , his s/r in ODI for his era was damn good....guys like ganguly n dravid who played much later had lower s/r . Apne Rayudu aur rahane ka to aaj bhi 80 nahin

For a very long time, Lloyd held the record for the fastest century in the ODI WC, scored off 75 balls. It was broken only in 2003 by Richardson of Canada IIRC. When he started his career, legends like Kanhai and Sobers will still around. As he hit his prime, the more dashing Richards and Greenidge came along. In his youth, Lloyd was a very good fielder earning the nickname super cat but as he aged, his stooped shoulders, dour expression and spectacled schoolmaster face didnt win him many fans. Shiv Chanderpaul was a Whisker's distance away from being the highest run getter for WI. Would anyone rate him or pick him in an all time X1? Numbers are not everything.

 

Also, Lloyd the captain massively overshadows Lloyd the batsman.

Moreover, gora writers must not have been happy with him unleashing the most fearsome pace battery on their teams for the better part of a decade, inflicting one beat down after another in the literal sense of the term. So all this combination of factors is the reason Lloyd the batsman doesn't get much space in cricket columns.

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3 hours ago, nevada said:

For a very long time, Lloyd held the record for the fastest century in the ODI WC, scored off 75 balls. It was broken only in 2003 by Richardson of Canada IIRC. When he started his career, legends like Kanhai and Sobers will still around. As he hit his prime, the more dashing Richards and Greenidge came along. In his youth, Lloyd was a very good fielder earning the nickname super cat but as he aged, his stooped shoulders, dour expression and spectacled schoolmaster face didnt win him many fans. Shiv Chanderpaul was a Whisker's distance away from being the highest run getter for WI. Would anyone rate him or pick him in an all time X1? Numbers are not everything.

 

Also, Lloyd the captain massively overshadows Lloyd the batsman.

Moreover, gora writers must not have been happy with him unleashing the most fearsome pace battery on their teams for the better part of a decade, inflicting one beat down after another in the literal sense of the term. So all this combination of factors is the reason Lloyd the batsman doesn't get much space in cricket columns.

Greenidge is highly overrated. You know what greenidge's ODI strike rate is much lower than Lloyd, test average also lower than Lloyd.

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Already posted in his 75th birthday thread but since it is locked/archived.....

 

41st year running, no helmet grill, big glasses, Brisbane pitch, MOM 

 

Lloyd was #1 ranked test batsman at that time, retired as #1. At a time when Viv, Greg, Sunny, Border, Crowe, Miandad, Gooch, Greenidge, Gower etc were active. Number one at the age of 40!!!!!!

 

Also destroyed India's legendary spin quartet (at their peak) on Indian pitches, nobody treated our great spinners with more disdain. We would have won that epic 1974-75 series (more famous for GR Viswanath's feats) against WI if not for him, scored 650 runs and instrumental in 2 wins including decider. 

Edited by Gollum
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29 minutes ago, Gollum said:

With such big glasses and no helmet grill (sometimes just a cap/hat) imagine facing Lillee-Thommo duo on those scary fast/bouncy Aussie pitches of 70s

 

 

Great video. You can see their pride in their team.. after just one series loss they are saying Lloyd was depressed and questioned himself. Changed his whole strategy and philosophy and brought in new bowlers. Without a doubt best team ever to play the game. It must be extremely annoying for them to see the current WI team

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6 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Greenidge is highly overrated. You know what greenidge's ODI strike rate is much lower than Lloyd, test average also lower than Lloyd.


Geeenidge opened in an era of red ball cricket and no power plays. White ball cricket began  in Aus in the 80s 

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12 hours ago, maniac said:

Usually Clive Lloyd makes most ATG sides as a captain or at times other alternatives are made the captain to keep balance.

 

His stature as one of the greatest leaders ever to play the game is indisputable but how  come we never hear his name when talking about greatest batsmen ever to play the game? I don’t think anyone would of top of the head rate Sir Clive in the top 20 batsmen ever to play the game.

 

So I decided to look up his stats

 

He has a test average of 47 in that era with 19 100’s and  about 7500 runs

 

He has a odi average of nearly 40 again in that era and a strike rate of 82 again in that era of odi cricket.

 

For me he is probably the top 5 left hand batsmen at least to play the game.

 

Your views?

 

Also any insights would be welcome from @Straight Drive @Harsh Thakor @Audiophile @Tattieboy

He comes under the category as Captain  of all that matters is that his team wins and it  doesn't matter who scored the runs or who  takes the wickets as long as someone does .He was a  hugely vital cog in the wheel of  the greatest team there has been . Stats alone cannot show what his batting at 4,5,6 brought to this team in both Tests and ODI .All I  know is he was a very very good batsman and is a West Indian ATG , I will leave all the other stuff to others , I am in the cricketers camp of stats are for prats and your peers know who are  great players .

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

He comes under the category as Captain  of all that matters is that his team wins and it  doesn't matter who scored the runs or who  takes the wickets as long as someone does .He was a  hugely vital cog in the wheel of  the greatest team there has been . Stats alone cannot show what his batting at 4,5,6 brought to this team in both Tests and ODI .All I  know is he was a very very good batsman and is a West Indian ATG , I will leave all the other stuff to others , I am in the cricketers camp of stats are for prats and your peers know who are  great players .

 

 

I get your sentiment but it gets back to my rant, cricket stats are not done correctly.

 

Let me go ahead and stick my neck out and it will get me banned on this board.

 

I have seen Gavaskar. Tendulkar, Dravid, Lara, Llyod and Viv play.

 

Llyod was as good or better than all of them. Viv was the best and stats be damned.

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12 minutes ago, Khota said:

I get your sentiment but it gets back to my rant, cricket stats are not done correctly.

 

Let me go ahead and stick my neck out and it will get me banned on this board.

 

I have seen Gavaskar. Tendulkar, Dravid, Lara, Llyod and Viv play.

 

Llyod was as good or better than all of them. Viv was the best and stats be damned.

I don't say very much about cricket on here because I come from a players perspective and most on here are fans where stats are be all and end all . Played against two of those you mentioned as young cricketers just starting out and thought yeah could be decent players  but for me as well there is only one guy I would pay money just to see his entrance and walk out never mind him batting King Viv . He was on a whole different level to players of his era .

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54 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

I don't say very much about cricket on here because I come from a players perspective and most on here are fans where stats are be all and end all . Played against two of those you mentioned as young cricketers just starting out and thought yeah could be decent players  but for me as well there is only one guy I would pay money just to see his entrance and walk out never mind him batting King Viv . He was on a whole different level to players of his era .

Viv was a king indeed and I second that sentiment. As a little kid sitting in the stands the longest shot I ever saw hit at Kotla was by him. Clean, crisp and hit the sweet spot of the bat. Made our bowlers look silly. I thought I have no idea who this character is but he will be good one day.

 

These WI players were league ahead in fitness and professinolaism. No sledging, no yapping their work did all the talking.

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6 minutes ago, Gambit said:

What he needs to get a lot of credit for are his man management skills - managing several legendary players, each with their own strong idiosyncratic personalities,  effectively and successfully over a long period of time.

Handling Alvin, Andy, Viv takes a lot of talent. Plenty of egoes in that team but still played as one.

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15 hours ago, maniac said:

Usually Clive Lloyd makes most ATG sides as a captain or at times other alternatives are made the captain to keep balance.

 

His stature as one of the greatest leaders ever to play the game is indisputable but how  come we never hear his name when talking about greatest batsmen ever to play the game? I don’t think anyone would of top of the head rate Sir Clive in the top 20 batsmen ever to play the game.

 

So I decided to look up his stats

 

He has a test average of 47 in that era with 19 100’s and  about 7500 runs

 

He has a odi average of nearly 40 again in that era and a strike rate of 82 again in that era of odi cricket.

 

For me he is probably the top 5 left hand batsmen at least to play the game.

 

Your views?

 

Also any insights would be welcome from @Straight Drive @Harsh Thakor @Audiophile @Tattieboy

Without a doubt he was one of the top test batsman . The fact that he captained the Invincible test team and also tasted success in ODI by truimphs of 1975 and 1979 WC meant that he was also looked upon the identity of being the most succesful captain. His knock in Chennai was one of the best test innings, escpecially considering it was against the greatest spin attack in cricketing history. He was the one to spot the talent and give  debut to Michael Holding.


He had a long career and played alongside the likes of Sobers, Kanhai, Grenidge, Rowe, Fredricks, Richie Richardson. However, the most determining is the presence of Viv Richards , who was easily the best batsman of his time was one of the reason Lloyd wasnt the best in the WI team. The Viv factor is a significant one as far as rating is concerned. Lloyd could be the backbone of the team total or could counter attack. A very adaptable player who could rise to the situation and bat accordingly.


Definitely Clive makes the top 5 lefties team imo. He would miss the first 11 (right and left handed 11) though but would make next second 11.


imo he was the most significant player who had the most impact on the game of cricket, courtesy being the captain of West Indian team of those times.

Edited by Straight Drive
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19 minutes ago, Gambit said:

What he needs to get a lot of credit for are his man management skills - managing several legendary players, each with their own strong idiosyncratic personalities,  effectively and successfully over a long period of time.


I don’t think anyone questions Lloyd when it comes to captaincy and leadership skills. It’s pretty much the general consensus that he is one of the greatest captain/ leader to play the game.

 

However I have seen his batting is often less talked about. 

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